"Volkswagen’s Tennessee plant sets new standard for low wages"

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JSWTDI09

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VW does what almost every other company does. They pay the lowest wage required to hire the quality of people they need. Because of the economy right now, workers are more abundant than jobs. Therefore, VW (and other companies) can get away with paying lower wages. This will (hopefully) change in the future. When the economy improves, VW will probably have to raise wages to compete for competent workers. Also, as the assembly line gets up and running at full speed, there is a very good chance that many of contract workers ($12/hr) will be hired as permanent workers at a higher rate with benefits.

As stated above, these are also starting pay rates. As workers demonstrate their skills and work ethic, pay usually increases. I suspect that (for now) all of the people who have found work at this plant are very happy to be employed. Why is it our job to complain about their pay rate?

Have Fun!

Don
 

NickBeek

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I have been a blue collar worker (machinist) and a white collar worker (technical sales). I have always earned a decent living despite not having a degree. As a matter of fact engineers and even professional engineers take advice from me and spend their budgets with me on a daily basis.

I don't appreciate the whole "trained monkey" crap that a few in this thread have eluded to. If you think the assembly line is an easy job that anyone can do, I challenge you to go try it some time. I know and have interacted with people in that line of work and take offense to the attitude shown here by a few. No I won't call out individuals as that is against the rules. If the shoe fits, wear it.
 

manual_tranny

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I have been a blue collar worker (machinist) and a white collar worker (technical sales). I have always earned a decent living despite not having a degree. As a matter of fact engineers and even professional engineers take advice from me and spend their budgets with me on a daily basis.
People with different backgrounds/jobs/skills work together and take advice from each other? That's wonderful! But it's not news...
I don't appreciate the whole "trained monkey" crap that a few in this thread have eluded to.
Who eluded to trained monkey crap? Where?
If you think the assembly line is an easy job that anyone can do, I challenge you to go try it some time. I know and have interacted with people in that line of work and take offense to the attitude shown here by a few. No I won't call out individuals as that is against the rules. If the shoe fits, wear it.
Are you talking to me? Do you have any idea what I've done for a living?

I can assure you that it is possible for you to share what you think without even seeming angry about it. It's not against the rules to speak/type directly to another member. It's annoying and petty when people cast a grand moral dissaprovement over our group rather than refute the statements that they actually disagree with. It's OK to disagree, silly!
 
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jagardn

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Let me clue some of the "white collar" folks in to a bit of news. As manufacturing goes, so goes our nations in North America. This is a fact. Also to those who think their degree and no experience ensures they should make more then the "lug nut" assembling lug nuts you are sadly mistaken. You were sold a bill of goods by some university that got your money.
I agree with you that lack of manufacturing in this country will be the death of us. Or trade deficits and debt will crush our economy, it has already started to. Right now higher education is being shoved down Americas throat. "everyone deserves a good education", just like "everyone deserves a house" eventually the system will be flooded with educated people and not enough jobs to support it. Those who can't get jobs won't be able to afford their loans and start defaulting, it will be just like the housing bubble all over again. We surely need our manufacturing base built up, but not at the ridiculous wages called for by the unions.
 

rotarykid

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WT**, too many educated people in the population???????????

Oh contrair, the problem is today we have far too few educated people in our society. This lack of well educated citizens has lead to the need for the government to have to allow people from other countries that see that an education is essential to be given work visas.

There are industries in the US, very well paying jobs that can't find American's trained and educated for positions that are available today. Businesses that can't find workers from the US because of the lack of available affordable higher education for so many. If we had a better educated population unemployment would be as much as 4 points lower today. I personally know many people in CA, CO and NC that came here from another country because of the lack of well educated Americans to fill the positions they have today.

We are all paid back from the money spent to make education available to all. It is far cheaper to pay for a college education for all that to not. The less educated people are the more likely they are to have to be given government assistance at some time in their life to survive.

Or the less educated end up in trouble and in prison which cost us all a fortune. And in the end we get nothing positive from money wasted on locking people up.

We can spend a little now giving people the skills they need to make a living or a lot later on helping them survive from having a low paying job with no work skills. I vote for making the education available as has been done in my state.

In the less than 5 decades after the decision was made by the state government of my state to make higher education affordable to all the standard of living in NC has gone up by 5-7 times over a bordering state that never did. And both states had very similar wages and standards of living in the late 50s to early 60s before NC made the change. Everyone I know my age from NC has a better life today because higher education was made available if we wanted to take advantage of it. The programs that were available to me after high school made going to college an option. And I took advantage of the option of getting a higher education.........

A perfect example of this making for a better prepared society is to compare NC to CO. Everyone I know my age or younger in NC has at least some higher education which has helped them make a better living than they ever would have without it.

While the people in CO of similar age, background and income while growing up have no higher education. The same higher education I got in NC that was available to me isn't an option in CO, ( last time I looked into it costs 5-7 times what it does in NC and that was 20 years ago). That higher out of reach cost makes the citizens of CO poorer from it. The gap between the poor un-under educated and the higher educated in Colorado is extreme compared to my home state. The only people who's family's had incomes similar to what I grew up with I know in CO with higher education at all are so in debt from it that it effects the standard of living they have. I see this as stupid and short cited..........
 

jagardn

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WT**, too many educated people in the population???????????
Your reply is misleading, are you a politician? I said too many educated people for the amount of jobs available. Education is very important. My point was that another economic bubble is being created by giving more loans to just anyone.
 

Jack Frost

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I don't think his reply is at all misleading. Education (which includes skill development - not necessarily a lot of books) is crucial in any economy and has been for as long as there has been economys. An economy needs producers. As machines and computers take over rout tasks, an economy need thinkers to produce what machines and computers cannot produce. An economy needs consumers that have the means to buy what the producers produce. That has been going on since the start of the industrial revolution.

The fact there are not enough jobs for everyone is a very complicated question which has always been around in varying degrees. That we are in a recession was caused by a lack of ethics in the financial industry and lack of political leadership and fiscal control in some Europeon countries. It has little to do with the wages of assembly workers or unions and absoulutely nothing to do with excessive education.
 

akafred

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i don't understand why auto workers should be making 25$-30$ a hour.. its some of the most brain dead work out there and should be paid for accordingly..

i work in a non auto manufacturing environment and all the laborers make ~10.50$ (minimum wage here) to start.. they are worked like dogs in a ****ty environment.. every person in our shop would leave in a heart beat to make 12$ in a auto manufacturing facility.

The fact is if they were paid more we couldn't stay competitive and would end up having to close up shop.. i am sure they would rather the minimum wage over no job at all..
 

oxford_guy

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Recall that corporate excesses and abuse of laborers led to the establishment of unions, then over time the pendulum swung the other way and the union workers were over-paid and an "entitlement" attitude led to decreases in productivity and quality.
As far as I understand it, the quality problems (like in the 70s) were the result of greedy corporate boards that decided things like "the numbers show that shipping Pintos with exploding gas tanks is more profitable than not doing so".

As far as productivity not keeping up with wages, here's a chart from Dr. Elizabeth Warren. I'm sure the gap is larger today, too.
 

tditom

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There are a number of inefficiencies when working in a union shop. Like not being able to open a panel on a machine because only a certain union group is allowed to do so. So the whole line waits until the authorized person comes off their mandated break. If the person who opens the panel finds out that an electrician is needed, then the whole process is repeated while you wait for that guy to show up.

I lived in Michigan most of my life, and am well familiar with the UAW abuses widely reported in the 1970's-1990's. My grandfather was involved in the Flint riots of the 1930's, so I'm also well aware of the corporate abuses that led to the establishment of the UAW in the first place. Like I said- reaching a reasonable equilibrium where shareholder interests are being served while providing meaningful employment to your neighbors and competing in a global economy is no easy task.
 

oxford_guy

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I lived in Michigan most of my life, and am well familiar with the UAW abuses widely reported in the 1970's-1990's. My grandfather was involved in the Flint riots of the 1930's, so I'm also well aware of the corporate abuses that led to the establishment of the UAW in the first place. Like I said- reaching a reasonable equilibrium where shareholder interests are being served while providing meaningful employment to your neighbors and competing in a global economy is no easy task.
I agree with the point about needing equilibrium. However, I bet it's rare indeed for workers to have more power than management. In fact, I'd say we're far from that today.

The exploding Pinto gas tank, the aluminum Vega engine, and the Oldsmobile diesels — all of those tremendously bad things were not the fault of workers. I assume corporate mismanagement is to blame for the image problem (and financial issues) of American car companies more than their workers' union activities are.

I realize that it could be argued that the mistaken attempts at cost-cutting were a reaction to the costs imposed by unions; if anyone has proof of that, I'd be glad to see it. VW has had record profitability recently. So, at least with the example of VW, the current cost-cutting trend (Jetta/Passat, warranty period) is unrelated to labor cost, I'd say.

I caution against embracing false equivalency in an attempt to be reasonable. Sometimes reality isn't anywhere near equilibrium. Maybe it's true that, in the past at least, workers did indeed have more power than management. I doubt that lasted very long and I seriously doubt it's true today.
 
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tditom

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I never said anything about workers having more power than management, and don't think that would be a good idea in any case.
 

aja8888

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I never said anything about workers having more power than management, and don't think that would be a good idea in any case.
I have to agree with Tom after working in Michigan manufacturing plants (Detroit) and in Connecticut (20 years of it). Certainly management makes it's share of bad designs and unreliable products (note several by VW frequently mentioned here), but who else should be doing the following?

Identifying a consumer need,
Developing product designs,
Obtaining necessary patents,
Building a manufacturing facility,
Obtaining raw materials,
Obtaining financing,
Hiring labor,
Building the product,
Testing,
Creating a distribution network,
Selling the product,
Etc, etc.....

Surely not the day laborers or the bargaining unit leaders...:rolleyes:
 

NickBeek

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If what I said strikes a nerve in you then I guess the "shoe fits" huh? If not why do you keep responding?

Anyway I'm done with this conversation. I have said what I wanted.
 

IFRCFI

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That is simply not true.
Unfortunately, companies are constantly working on ways to eliminate the need for skilled labor. Its expensive, and non-repeatable. A combination of automation and lean manufacturing is reducing efforts down to insert the blue part into the red hole, push the green button and wait for the yellow light. Look up the term "poka yoke". The modern shop floor is full of technology telling the workers how to perform every detail of their job down to the movement. Skilled labor is rapidly moving towards the history books.




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VeeDubTDI

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Computer-automated manual labor... follow the prompts and do what you're told. Skilled labor has shifted to the designing and building of automation systems rather than the end user on the factory floor.
 

Ski in NC

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Computer-automated manual labor... follow the prompts and do what you're told. Skilled labor has shifted to the designing and building of automation systems rather than the end user on the factory floor.
Second that.

When unskilled labor is 10-20% unemployed, the wage should adjust until manufacturer's find it more beneficial to have the work done manually than to pay for the automation. Then the unemployment rate will go down.

Labor markets need to adapt to the economic realities.

Sucks being unskilled. That problem is solved by the individual's actions.

There are good reasons economics is referred to as the "dismal science".
 

tditom

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Link to original story?...
At the risk of taking this discussion to a whole-nuther-political-level, I found the original article at the "World Socialist Web Site"
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/sep2011/chat-s23.shtml
Regardless the source- I stand by my concerns about the blue collar jobs in this country, and if the facts of that story are to be believed- then I question VW's tactics of lowering the bar for automanufacturers.

Ski in NC said:
Labor markets need to adapt to the economic realities.
This is true, but we as a society will still need to deal with the social consequences of too many people without the skills who cannot find employment, or a glut of skilled laborers and still not enough jobs to employ them. Either scenario is troubling to me.
 

Ski in NC

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The "elephant in the room" is that labor and services can now be sourced anywhere in the world. In the past, transportation of goods and services was too slow and too expensive for the market to be truly global. Economies used to be mostly local and isolated. Not so now.

Considering this reality, economies are adjusting and will continue to adjust. Currencies will change in relative value (at least some will!! (actually all will eventually!!)), costs of goods and services will adjust, labor rates will adjust, etc, etc. In an erratic manner, with help and hindrance from governments, things tend to seek a balance.

On an individual worker's level, this process can suck massively. Especially in the older advanced industrial economies. It's not going to be pretty here in the USA as it unfolds.

What is going on in Chattanooga is just a microcosm of the larger process.
 

Jack Frost

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Skilled labor is rapidly moving towards the history books.

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No it's not, it just get redefined. For instance, you do not have a typist typing your IPad for you. At one time, typing was considered a skill done only by a those in the typing pool.

I don't think many women would like to go back to those days. And long before women were in typing pools, it was the men who were expected to do clerical work using pencils, and before that it was with goose quills, and before that, hammer and chisel, and before that it was painting on cave walls. Until anything difficult become automated, it is a skill. ;)
 

aja8888

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No it's not, it just get redefined. For instance, you do not have a typist typing your IPad for you. At one time, typing was considered a skill done only by a those in the typing pool.
Yeah, no more typing pools, or admin assistants who do your typing for you.:(

Nowadays, us engineers and techs do our own typing because we are forced to. It's a shame engineering schools don't include typing as a required course. :rolleyes:
 

oxford_guy

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The "elephant in the room" is that labor and services can now be sourced anywhere in the world. In the past, transportation of goods and services was too slow and too expensive for the market to be truly global. Economies used to be mostly local and isolated. Not so now.

Considering this reality, economies are adjusting and will continue to adjust. Currencies will change in relative value (at least some will!! (actually all will eventually!!)), costs of goods and services will adjust, labor rates will adjust, etc, etc. In an erratic manner, with help and hindrance from governments, things tend to seek a balance.

On an individual worker's level, this process can suck massively. Especially in the older advanced industrial economies. It's not going to be pretty here in the USA as it unfolds.

What is going on in Chattanooga is just a microcosm of the larger process.
Globalization can mean the flattening out of standard of living, or it can just be another way for the wealthy elite to grab more for themselves. The key question comes down to how equitable the distribution is. Dr. Warren's chart shows productivity outpacing wages. Why should that happen even in a global market? Shouldn't productivity and wages be matched? Someone is getting the money, like Mr. Paulson who made in one hour what someone making $50,000 would make in a lifetime. Global entities have no true national allegiance and neither do the politicians that support them. That's why both parties here have little problem with outsourcing, trade imbalance that benefits China, children-left-behind education, and so forth.

There are economic drawbacks to neomercantilism, but inevitably there are also drawbacks to neofeudalism.

As for technology making jobs disappear... It's also supposed to create jobs and lead to a higher standard of living for everyone. People should be able to be less productive and still enjoy the same standard of living.
 

Ski in NC

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One key point regarding Paulson and all others that are paid on the "hyper" scale: These guys do not "make" or "earn" that money, some organization CHOSE to pay them that much. That means corporate boards, etc. These same organizations could choose to pay them less, and deal with whether they stay or not. The boards have bid up these salaries and those are whom should be held accountable. Corporate structure is to blame there.
 

aja8888

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Globalization can mean the flattening out of standard of living, or it can just be another way for the wealthy elite to grab more for themselves. The key question comes down to how equitable the distribution is. Dr. Warren's chart shows productivity outpacing wages. Why should that happen even in a global market? Shouldn't productivity and wages be matched? Someone is getting the money, like Mr. Paulson who made in one hour what someone making $50,000 would make in a lifetime. Global entities have no true national allegiance and neither do the politicians that support them. That's why both parties here have little problem with outsourcing, trade imbalance that benefits China, children-left-behind education, and so forth.

There are economic drawbacks to neomercantilism, but inevitably there are also drawbacks to neofeudalism.

As for technology making jobs disappear... It's also supposed to create jobs and lead to a higher standard of living for everyone. People should be able to be less productive and still enjoy the same standard of living.
Quoted: "Shouldn't productivity and wages be matched?" Uhhhh...maybe not? Give me a reason why it should be? :rolleyes:

Quoted: "People should be able to be less productive and still enjoy the same standard of living." ..........Really, who made this a *requirement* or a *law* (or whatever you want to call it)? :rolleyes:

I don't think you really understand the laws of supply and demand and capitalism. Have you ever worked in an industrial setting in the United States?
 

Jack Frost

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As for technology making jobs disappear... It's also supposed to create jobs and lead to a higher standard of living for everyone. People should be able to be less productive and still enjoy the same standard of living.
Technology has always been sold as a way of reducing work, but that never happens. Our standards go up. We always spend what we earn. We always have less time for our families and friends.

I remember back years ago how computers were going to shorten the work week and eliminate the need for paper. That never happened. Instead, we all work harder and use more paper than ever. At work, we have all these printers churning out reports and email and are forever been fed ever more reams of paper. You seem those guys from administration feeding those printers as if they were stokers with shovels throwing more coal into the boilers of the Titanic.

For all of that, we still don't get the cheques out any faster than we did two generations ago!
 

oxford_guy

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Corporate structure is to blame there.
And the effect of this compensation affects everything else. The money goes somewhere. When Paulson gets more in an hour than someone making $50,000 earns in a lifetime, that is a lot of lifetimes we're talking about.
Jack Frost said:
Technology has always been sold as a way of reducing work, but that never happens.
It does happen. Keep in mind the examples people have given of things that are no longer done with labor-intensive equipment, like the abacus. The trouble is... profiteers find other things for us to do. (Of course, also, increases in technological complexity can increase the level of time/energy that technology requires for maintenance.) And, if wages don't keep up with increases in productivity...
Jack Frost said:
Our standards go up. We always spend what we earn.
Dr. Warren's other chart shows that expenses have gone up dramatically, like childcare and health insurance. And, when someone like Paulson gets so much money, that makes a lot of people have to work harder to get what's left over.
 
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GoFaster

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Skilled labor is rapidly moving towards the history books.
As noted above, it's just changing.

For example, I had a customer build a machine to insert bulbs into a taillamp housing.

Now why on earth would one want to automate the process of inserting taillamp bulbs into a taillamp housing, a job so simple a 6 year old child could do it?

Because only by automating the process could it be guaranteed and vaildated that every bulb was installed correctly and that the assembled fixture as a whole was operational. (The machine had several stations to not only insert the bulbs but also photograph that the bulbs were in place and then power up the housing and validate that all the bulbs worked, then send the completed bulb housing into either a finished-parts conveyor with a date code on it, or into a rework conveyor with no validation marking on it.)

I don't know what they paid for building that fixture, but it sure kept a whole bunch of engineers and a shop of skilled workers busy for a while.

By the way, I've had a few customers build equipment that was for building parts for the Chattanooga plant, so it's keeping food on my table, too.

My connection is through automation and robotics, and all the automation builders I know of that survived the 2008-2009 recession/depression are now swamped with work.
 

bhtooefr

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I am not an assembly worker, but I hope that my car was made by an employer who did not regard them as disposable economic units.
Time to quit your job, start up a car company with only yourself as an employee, and fire up a welder, to build your own car.

You might be able to get a low-volume kit car, too, but even then, they might subscribe to the theory of "human resources" rather than people.
 
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