factory 'block heater' vs. frostheater

hey all -

i have the factory block heater on my 2012 TDI. does anyone know what type of heater this is? Is it just an element that heats local coolant, or does it heat and circulate slowly?

would i see much benefit by installing a frostheater to circulate the coolant? obviously i would see great benefit over no heater at all, but, will i see much benefit over the factory heater?

thanks in advance for the info
jason

Both heat coolant. gravity provides some circulation of the heated coolant.

the frostheater is two or three times more powerful (in heat production and electric use) than the stock heater.

The factory coolant heater(don't know the manufacturer) is only about 500 watts. The frostheater is about 1000 watts I believe. So yes the aftermarket one would do the job faster.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/search.php?searchid=16078177

does the frostheater heat by circulation pump, or convection?

likewise, does the OEM heat by circ pump, or convection?

Isnt the oem an oil pan heater? Frost heater is a coolant heater

Both are convection.

Dirtracr95 said:

Isnt the oem an oil pan heater? Frost heater is a coolant heater

Click to expand...

No, not a pan heater. OEM is also a coolant heater.

Gravity. density change from heating. advection. convection.

(no electric pumps involved)

Regardless of how the OEM one functions, I enjoy it and it does the job all winter long, plus it looks sleek, you can barely see the plug. I don't see the benefit of installing the frost heather on top of the OEM one... Is yours not warming up the engine enough OP?

vwfreak -

mine works also. it helps with starting, but not so much with proper heat from the coolant in a short period of time.

my mother also drives a TDi, MK5 jetta. my folks were looking into a remote starter, which i advised against, and they changed their mind with the $1200 price tag!

so, i pointed them in the direction of frostheater, for $150, a fraction of the cost of a starter. they also have the factory 500w heater. it too, works as advertised, but they are after good heat sooner after startup.

so, do our factory heaters work? - yes
will the frostheater to a better job? - yes

the frostheater carries a couple benefits like placement for better circulation, double the wattage, and thermostatically controlled. my mother can leave it plugged in all day at work, and not worry about it, which is nice. she could probably do it witht he factory heater too, but it would stay on fulltime, without the added benefit of instant heat.

so, is all this worth $150? yes it is, to them.
i'll be helping my dad install it, in my garage. so, while we're doing one, we might as well do two i figure, and split the shipping! definitely not NEEDED, but timing and price is right for me.

I mean, it's the nature of the beast that diesels don't warm up a lot when idling. Here in Northern Ontario's winter months (as I'm sure as well as in AB) - it's just a matter of starting up, idling for a minute or two, turning on the heated seats...and drive. Usually within 5-odd minutes of the engine working at load, you'll start to get warm air. Even when it's plugged in at -25 or so, you're never going to get warm air in the first five minutes.
Heated seats and shiver for the first 5-odd minutes.

Yes it's the nature if the beast, i understand. However, i like to minimize those effects as much as possible. Yes, diesels don't warm up by idling, so we need other options. I have an espar heater on my dodge cummins that works wonders. However, that is not in the budget for the JSW, so for $150USD I think the frostheater is as good as it gets without an espar or webasto heater.

I disagree though, when you say you won't get heat at -25 if plugged in all night. I know the frostheater will start kicking out heat right away... Unlikely with the factory block heater though, it's only powerful enough to aid in starting.

unorganizedplan said:

I disagree though, when you say you won't get heat at -25 if plugged in all night. I know the frostheater will start kicking out heat right away... Unlikely with the factory block heater though, it's only powerful enough to aid in starting.

Click to expand...

Pipe dreams..... do some searches.... lots of people have misconceptions that they will have instant heat.... your rad is a heat exchanger... any coolant that is contained in it is exposed to the ambient temperatures.... at -25 there's tons of heat loss.....

Plus, with any auxiliary heater you are only heating a portion of the volume of coolant in the system.... fire up the engine and you instantly see coolant temps drop if you have a SG or any other means of taking a reading before you see the temps start to climb as the engine warms up with driving load.

Have a look here.... I posted a practical comparison to give people a better idea of what is a realistic expectation
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=396316&page=3

I saw your thread, and posted a while back.

I don't have pipe dreams. I know as soon as the engine fires the coolant mixes and temps will drop on a gauge. The frostheater is still a better option IMHO because it is 2x the wattage, AND thermostatically controlled. You can't argue warm up time won't be reduced. Maybe in your test it wouldn't make a difference. However, the first 6.3kms of many commutes don't see speeds of 120km/hr to load the engine. Yes I know the cold airflow increases at those speeds, but the engine working harder outweighs that I believe.

I too, have been using the OEM heater. It serves it's purpose to aid starting, and does a decent job. I think the bonus of a frostheater will be comfort only. Plus less plug-in time in the event I forgot the previous night, as you mentioned in the other thread.

Have you thought of a winter grill block to help in engine warm up time ? As for heat in the cabin. All Canadian VW TDI's have an in dash auxiliary heater. Gives warm air even with a cold engine start. Not tropical but it helps.

Yes, winter cover is in the works.

I don't use the in-cabin aux heater much. I prefer to freeze, and the. BLAST the heat once the coolant and heater core can keep up! Haha, for some reason it seems more satisfying!

unorganizedplan said:

.....You can't argue warm up time won't be reduced.

Click to expand...

Read what I typed.... I never said a more powerful heater would be less effective

TurboABA said:

lots of people have misconceptions that they will have instant heat....

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I read what you typed.
Now, don't read too much into what I typed. I said you 'can't' argue that point. I didn't say you were already arguing, and incorrect...

Don't forget that when you install the frost heater, change the hose clamps, they dig into the hose and cause it to bubble up and leak eventually (this was even after following the instructions to tighten/check tightness on a yearly basis). I recommend either spring loaded hose clamps or the hose clamps that are solid all the way around and have the grooves molded on top of them and a flat underside rather than the traditional open hole design.

The trick I found for getting "immediate heat" is by turning off the blower during start-up. This way you're not pushing the cold air onto the recently heated coolant and your coolant will heat up much faster (it still will drop off when initially driven, but recovery time is much faster- about 5 minutes)! Then turn on the blower at around 175F-190F. You can also buy those grille covers from idparts.com, they work great!

Efchou-
Good point. Spring clamps can be tricky to find at times. I'll look for some, otherwise I'll just use the clamps you described with smooth inner bands, I know they work well.

I'm sick of people saying that diesels don't warm up while idling. Yes they do! They just aren't as fast as your average gasser. I have an entire thread proving it... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=340142

VeeDubTDI said:

I'm sick of people saying that diesels don't warm up while idling. Yes they do! They just aren't as fast as your average gasser. I have an entire thread proving it... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=340142

Click to expand...

unorganizedplan said:

Yes it's the nature if the beast, i understand. However, i like to minimize those effects as much as possible. Yes, diesels don't warm up by idling...

Click to expand...

My apologies. I left out the word much.
Diesels don't warm up much while idling...
Is that better?
Sorry I made you more sick!

Nope. They'll warm up all the way.

ok then...
obviously you can't be that sick of it if you voluntarily engage yourself in these threads . . .

on high idle, diesels will warm up to full operating temperature in an acceptable amount of time. but it still takes a while.
on regular idle, they will take quite a long time, dependant upon temperature. you state you have proved it, so enlighten us, if you're not too sick of talking about it. i suspect you're going to say they will get up to operating temp, or at least warm within XX minutes. however, i also suspect very few members will be willing to let their car idle that long . . . especially when some of us have a preheater as an alternative.

I'm not sure what you're asking for in terms of enlightenment. I just wanted it to be recognized that they do in fact warm up when idling, contrary to what numerous threads around here would have you believe.

Since that is out of the way and we both seem to agree, I'm a big fan of block heaters. There is no sense in idling when you can plug it in for less cost, less noise, and less pollution.

VeeDubTDI said:

I'm not sure what you're asking for in terms of enlightenment. I just wanted it to be recognized that they do in fact warm up when idling, contrary to what numerous threads around here would have you believe.

Since that is out of the way and we both seem to agree, I'm a big fan of block heaters. There is no sense in idling when you can plug it in for less cost, less noise, and less pollution.

Click to expand...

Agreed.
No need for anything further.
Pretty sure we see this the same way.