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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old February 24th, 2020, 07:38   #1
cj.surr
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Default TDI swap vibrations in Volvo destroys dual mass flywheels

I have had an AHU TDI swapped into a Volvo 240 for about 3 years now. I have tried several flywheel/clutch/transmission combinations without any great results. The main source of the problems seem to be a very strong harmonic resonation/vibration in the 1850-2150 rpm range (as well as lower RPM). It gets worse as load is increased, but is still noticeable on decel. It does not occur when free-revving the engine. It gets worse with increasing gear, with 5th gear being the worst by far. It is not at all a normal diesel vibration, it tries to shake the car apart, and you would not be able to hear the passenger talking at its worst point.

I'll go through the sequence of attempts.

Volvo M47 5 speed transmission with custom adapter (To be fair, the transmission pilot alignment was probably not within spec for this transmission)
Single mass flywheel + sprung hub clutch - Vibration is very pronounced
1.8t Dual mass flywheel + solid hub clutch- Vibration is mostly subdued (still noticeable), but dual mass flywheels do not last. All 3 (new) flywheels that I tried failed in less than 3k miles of gentle driving.

Toyota W56 transmission with DCS adapter plate (I chose this transmission because people have had good luck with it in Toyota trucks)
Single mass flywheel + Sprung hub clutch - Vibration is still very pronounced, no change from Volvo transmission

Tremec T5 transmission with custom adapter bellhousing (I checked transmission pilot alignment and it was within spec)
Euro market Sachs Dual mass for AHU 1.9t Audi A4 + solid hub clutch
- Vibrations similar to 1.8t dual mass. This flywheel has pretty much failed after 100 miles of somewhat hard testing/driving (spending a lot of time in the RPM trouble area)

This last attempt is really what has me baffled, since this dual mass was specified for my exact engine as it came in an A4. I feel that it must be an engine issue that is killing the flywheels since it is the only common denominator. Compression test looked fine. The engine has been running fine and I have put about 60k miles on this swap (mostly with single mass flywheels and avoiding the RPM zone that has issues). It has been getting good mileage and driveability is otherwise fine. I don't think the vibration has gotten worse at all over the course of 60k miles. The engine drove fine and smooth in the donor car before swapping it.

Compression test is fine
Cam looks fine

Other parts I have tried replacing without change:
Injectors
Driveshaft
Harmonic balancer (also tried fluid damper)
Engine mounts (currently using BMW M42 mounts, but I have tried a mk3 tdi rear mount without much change)

I have a spare very high mileage engine that I am considering swapping in just to try, but I have little hope for that effort. I am wondering if anyone has any ideas at this point, because I’m all out. Thanks for reading.


Here is a video of the excessive axial play on the A4 dual mass after 100 miles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRds...ature=youtu.be
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Old February 24th, 2020, 07:50   #2
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If the geometry is wrong, it'll vibrate.

The thing you mention is that it is under load, but at no load in neutral it is fine. That tells me it is a driveline out of alignment issue, and not the engine itself.

The 240 has a live rear axle, but with a carrier bearing on the driveshaft if I recall? Is the "plunge" function of the driveshaft (necessary with a floating live rear axle) working properly?
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Old February 24th, 2020, 09:35   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
If the geometry is wrong, it'll vibrate.
The thing you mention is that it is under load, but at no load in neutral it is fine. That tells me it is a driveline out of alignment issue, and not the engine itself.
The 240 has a live rear axle, but with a carrier bearing on the driveshaft if I recall? Is the "plunge" function of the driveshaft (necessary with a floating live rear axle) working properly?
Driveline angles are all proper, transmission output is parallel with diff flange. I've had 3 different two piece driveshafts (one for each trans), and also tried a single piece with the T5. No plunge issues and the vibration has been there all the same.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 10:08   #4
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So the rear axle itself has never been messed with? That is pretty much all that is left sounds like.

If you lift the car up in the back, and set the rear axle securely on jack stands, so that the springs are loaded the same as they would be with the wheels on the ground, can you get the vibration to happen? This would of course be a no-load situation, but at least the rotational bits would be the same.

You say it does NOT happen with the engine running, trans in neutral, clutch pedal released, correct? So that should rule out the engine, the flywheel, the transmission's input shaft. Since all that stuff is spinning then.

I would think if it shakes that bad, you'd be able to SEE something with the rear wheels in the air spinning. I know we had a Ford E-van once that had an out of balance driveshaft, and it started shaking so bad that the yoke on the pinion in back would wobble so much it would become a blur... the whole axle was loping up and down violently.

Another option would be a roller dyno, but it may not be very easy to see under the car with one of those, as they usually do not offer much clearance underneath.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 11:08   #5
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Yes, it can be replicated with the rear axle on jack stands. I don't think smooth free-rev rules out an engine issue. It doesn't vibrate significantly with trailing throttle either, it only gets much worse with increasing engine load.

The rear axle has all new bushings everywhere. It's true that it will shake (as observed with the car in the air) when the vibration is at it's most extreme state. But it seems to be more of an effect than a cause. Like I said, a dual mass smooths things out most of the way. But yet, fails extremely quickly, which tells me the problem is on the engine side of things. What else could cause the dual mass to fail, assuming good transmission alignment?
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Old February 24th, 2020, 11:57   #6
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If the alignment is good and the rear axle is good, I'd check the center support bearing(assuming it's still there). I replaced a number of those on my 240's. When they go south the vibrations are horrendous. You might want to try balancing the driveshaft also.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 13:31   #7
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I would check your centre bearing or propshaft rubber donut it might be giving the spring's in the dmf a hard time.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 13:32   #8
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Yeah, everything on the two piece driveshaft had been serviced, currently running a single piece with the T5.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 13:58   #9
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HI,

Verify that the driveshaft itself is balanced (no balance weights fell off etc..), the drive shafts are true (not bent) and in proper alignment (i.e. angles from tranny out put to rear end input are correct).

Then about the only thing left to check is that the U-Joints are properly phased if it is a multi piece driveshaft (I think It was mentioned earlier but also make sure the center bearing if present is securely mounted and in good condition also) ..

Hope this helps.

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Old February 24th, 2020, 14:34   #10
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I would suspect a problem in the design of your engine mount system... these engines are very unbalanced and shake around *a lot* in an OEM VW, whereas the Volvo engines are all comparatively smooth. Could it be too restrained, and therefore vibrating and twisting the entire engine/transmission in weird directions?
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Old February 24th, 2020, 22:02   #11
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I think you are looking at the right area focusing on the engine. It would be hard for an issue like driveshaft alignment or rear axle bushings to transmit enough force backwards, through the gearbox and then through the clutch disk all the way to the flywheel, to cause such an intense vibration or tear up a DMF. I think if anything downstream of the trans were causing it, you'd also be breaking U-joints, having differential pinion bearing problems, etc. And I doubt anything about how the engine/trans are mounted could transmit enough force back into the rotating components to cause failures, so I'd rule out anything having to do with the mounting system.

Plus, you have had the same issue despite running three completely different transmission and driveshaft setups and a variety of different mounts. And you say the vibrations are abated when a DMF is used, but then the DMF fails soon. That tells me the DMF is doing a lot of work trying to smooth out torsional pulses, and helping, but that the forces are too strong. I think the motor is the only thing that could cause the kinds of symptoms and damage you're describing. Amplitude of the positive/negative crank torque is too high, for whatever reason, and that's causing the bad vibes with the SMFs or beating your DMFs to death.

What kind of tune is it running? If it's not the stock tune, what kind of SOI timing is it dialing up in the RPM range where the vibration is worst?

When you say compression was fine, what kind of readings did you see? Were they in the middle of acceptable range, or off the high end of the scale?

Know anything about the motor's history? Head ever been off it? What thickness HG does it have?
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Old February 25th, 2020, 04:14   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
I would suspect a problem in the design of your engine mount system... these engines are very unbalanced and shake around *a lot* in an OEM VW, whereas the Volvo engines are all comparatively smooth. Could it be too restrained, and therefore vibrating and twisting the entire engine/transmission in weird directions?

The Volvo engines are most certainly NOT smooth. They are a large displacement (the most common was 2.3L) inline four, with no balance shafts. They got away with them by using HUGE squishy mounts, which failed a lot actually. The manuals also used a pretty chunky flywheel, but most of these were bolted to the Aisin 4sp slushbox.

The AHU in its original form did not even use a DMF, not that it would necessarily hurt anything to have one. I suppose one could check the smooth idle compensation numbers to see any possible hint of a cylinder imbalance, and another thought I had after posting yesterday was to maybe run the engine with the front pulley off and see if the problem is still present. The timing belt should still track OK due to the collar on the tensioner pulley, but you may want to keep a close eye on the front of the crank just in case it starts to walk off, but I have run other VAG engines like that briefly and they never did.
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Old February 25th, 2020, 05:32   #13
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You probably already thought of this, but Has your crank spacer been common during all this?
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Old February 25th, 2020, 05:56   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d24tdi View Post
I think you are looking at the right area focusing on the engine. It would be hard for an issue like driveshaft alignment or rear axle bushings to transmit enough force backwards, through the gearbox and then through the clutch disk all the way to the flywheel, to cause such an intense vibration or tear up a DMF. I think if anything downstream of the trans were causing it, you'd also be breaking U-joints, having differential pinion bearing problems, etc. And I doubt anything about how the engine/trans are mounted could transmit enough force back into the rotating components to cause failures, so I'd rule out anything having to do with the mounting system.

Plus, you have had the same issue despite running three completely different transmission and driveshaft setups and a variety of different mounts. And you say the vibrations are abated when a DMF is used, but then the DMF fails soon. That tells me the DMF is doing a lot of work trying to smooth out torsional pulses, and helping, but that the forces are too strong. I think the motor is the only thing that could cause the kinds of symptoms and damage you're describing. Amplitude of the positive/negative crank torque is too high, for whatever reason, and that's causing the bad vibes with the SMFs or beating your DMFs to death.

What kind of tune is it running? If it's not the stock tune, what kind of SOI timing is it dialing up in the RPM range where the vibration is worst?

When you say compression was fine, what kind of readings did you see? Were they in the middle of acceptable range, or off the high end of the scale?

Know anything about the motor's history? Head ever been off it? What thickness HG does it have?
Thanks for the reply. I completely agree with your analysis. You bring up some good points.

I have been running some cheap chip tune I bought on ebay for a couple years. I ran the engine briefly on the stock tune when finishing the swap and I'm pretty sure the vibrations were the same. I think I have a stock ecu to throw back in and compare, though. Since it has been a while.

I forget exactly what the compression numbers were but I think they were on the low-middle side of the range. That's probably worth checking again too.

I haven't had the head off, and based on it's previous owner, I doubt anything other than stock HG would have gone back in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
The Volvo engines are most certainly NOT smooth. They are a large displacement (the most common was 2.3L) inline four, with no balance shafts. They got away with them by using HUGE squishy mounts, which failed a lot actually. The manuals also used a pretty chunky flywheel, but most of these were bolted to the Aisin 4sp slushbox.
The AHU in its original form did not even use a DMF, not that it would necessarily hurt anything to have one. I suppose one could check the smooth idle compensation numbers to see any possible hint of a cylinder imbalance, and another thought I had after posting yesterday was to maybe run the engine with the front pulley off and see if the problem is still present. The timing belt should still track OK due to the collar on the tensioner pulley, but you may want to keep a close eye on the front of the crank just in case it starts to walk off, but I have run other VAG engines like that briefly and they never did.
True, the Volvo engine mounts are what I used originally. They have a ton of flex, but are actually not very large actually. The M42 mounts I'm using now are much larger (still smaller than TDI mounts). The m42 mounts seemed a little smoother and constrained the engine much better (startup and shutdown shaking).

I'm curious why I should try removing the crank pulley? Sounds risky since I need to load the engine and drive it around to simulate the problem. I've tried two different used OEM pulleys and a fluid damper with no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmodge View Post
You probably already thought of this, but Has your crank spacer been common during all this?
You mean between the crankshaft and flywheel? I only had a crank spacer for the Toyota setup. The volvo and T5 transmissions, I have just used 1.8t flywheels bolted directly to the crank.
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Old February 25th, 2020, 06:20   #15
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Yes. rwd I take it, if so you seem to have eliminated, by replacement or swap, everything between the crank flange and pinion yoke on the diff?
Have you ever disconnected the driveshaft and powered your diff at the pinion to see what happens. I thought of easing it up with an impact on the pinion nut, but that could cause a problem that doesn't exist. If you could weld a nut straight on a u-joint maybe? Something along those lines
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