***feeler***control your vnt yourself

I wanted to have no electronics. Though a standalone electronic system would be better than an ecu I'd still rather keep it all mechanical.

Ah ok bbob, I am not sure if I made my post clear but this is a mechanical system. It is not a vnt controller, it controls the vanes in the vnt turbo through mechanical means but there are no electronics. You can keep your setup entirely mechanical. There was some thought about the ability to add a standard boost controller be it manual or electronic in the future maybe but it would be off the shelf from your choosing. The idea here is to still use a vnt turbo and take advantage of its characteristics. It can either closely mimic the factory requested vs actual, or in your case bbob, you set how much boost you want at idle and cruise and how fast to spool up the turbine and then set maximum boost. I have been playing around with mine and can get anywhere from 0 psi at idle to about 5 psi. At cruise doing 75 on the highway i can adjust it from about 5 psi to 15 psi. When I stab the throttle boost jumps to about just under 25 psi. I have a vnt17vb and no intercooler so results will vary obviously. Today I am going to swap out spring gs for one rated at a lower pressure, leaving everything else equal, to verify it should drop my maximum boost level. Will report back.

This whole thing really smacks of a solution looking for a problem, IMO.

My goals are a reliable 25 psi of boost without spiking, quick throttle response, lower egts and better top end power. My k14 is great until about 3000 rpms and it runs out of breath but off the line its a great turbo it gets up to my max boost of 19 psi quickly. I like cruising boost to be about 7psi or so at 70mph.

madcowintucson said:

I made a boost log I will post later. After speaking with my tuner earlier today he brought to my attention that I am not running an intercooler which is true and so the air heating up is likely causing the pressure to slowly increase. Makes sense to me. This is why I wanted testers because my engine is not exactly stock as I have been running water/meth and without an intercooler. Also I have no maf sensor. Other than that it is fairly stock.

Click to expand...

Probably pointless to post any logs since you are running such an unusual setup.
At least put an I/C back on or have you turned off the IAT in software?
Plenty of options at a reasonable cost...

bbob203 said:

My goals are a reliable 25 psi of boost without spiking, quick throttle response, lower egts and better top end power. My k14 is great until about 3000 rpms and it runs out of breath but off the line its a great turbo it gets up to my max boost of 19 psi quickly. I like cruising boost to be about 7psi or so at 70mph.

Click to expand...

It really is to bad I live 10 miles through the city from the nearest highway to do testing. I have not experienced any spiking at all even stabbing the throttle. Boost response will be immediate but it is also directly tied to cruising boost. Right now boost response is very quick but I also have it set lower than normal just to experiment. What I am doing is adjusting the set screw a quarter turn at a time until I achieve a sweet spot. Alternatively the idea just entered into my mind tonight about using the n75 valve and the computer to regulate pressure as the actuator is a dual port unit. I wonder if the n75 from the gasser motors can operate at higher boost levels. If they will swap over then instead of controlling vacuum it will bleed boost whilst still retaining another spring. Just need to install a really soft spring in the actuator. Then it would be a smart system again lol.

flee said:

Probably pointless to post any logs since you are running such an unusual setup.
At least put an I/C back on or have you turned off the IAT in software?
Plenty of options at a reasonable cost...

Click to expand...

Logs have been requested and one posted. The IAT is not turned off. Everyone's point in life is different. A nice intercooler would be great. I'll accept any donations of new or used parts to further this endevor. Message me with anything you wish to donate.

FlyTDI Guy said:

This whole thing really smacks of a solution looking for a problem, IMO.

Click to expand...

I think you mistyped, it's a problem (for some) looking for a solition or opportunity and in this respect you are correct. On a side note, posts that have no merit or are frivolous will not be tolerated. I believe the popular term is "flaming". If you have questions or are interested in contributing in a meaningful way then by all means please do. Anything else may be inappropriate and reported to the moderator.

Thanks...

For the record, I do see the value of something like this for conversions. Even then, most will want to transplant the ECU to integrate w/all the sensors and closed-loop systems other than boost. The boost system, as it exists, tries to take into account numerous factors like air temp, air mass, etc. I don't see those as frivolous but rather a compilation of 'lessons learned' in an effort to better control the amount of boost. It is not a perfect system by far but most with issues are having them due to a mechanical issue like vacuum loss, leaky actuator, sticky vanes, etc. Innovation is the product of folks like yourself trying new things so, by all means, carry on. Simple is better so on that we agree.

FlyTDI Guy said:

This whole thing really smacks of a solution looking for a problem, IMO.

Click to expand...

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater would also apply here.

The VNT system was designed to give basically all the items mentioned in this thread as a "goal", namely making a reliable, responsive turbocharger that can handle more power than a small turbocharger and spools faster than a large one would and therefore allow good power and good efficiency.

All the "issues" with it are things that are either emissions related (soot buildup), easily fixed (stuck actuator) or limitations in the relatively primitive control system (allowing turbocharger spiking). The solution to this is to fix the issues, not make the car run worse by disabling the system.

If you want to manually control the boost or use a non-electronic control you would be better off swapping to a good waste-gated turbocharger that was designed better for more static operation.

FlyTDI Guy said:

For the record, I do see the value of something like this for conversions. Even then, most will want to transplant the ECU to integrate w/all the sensors and closed-loop systems other than boost. The boost system, as it exists, tries to take into account numerous factors like air temp, air mass, etc. I don't see those as frivolous but rather a compilation of 'lessons learned' in an effort to better control the amount of boost. It is not a perfect system by far but most with issues are having them due to a mechanical issue like vacuum loss, leaky actuator, sticky vanes, etc. Innovation is the product of folks like yourself trying new things so, by all means, carry on. Simple is better so on that we agree.

Click to expand...

Call me synical, I see a different motive from oems. I see profit as the motivating factor. Lessons learned...from an emissions standpoint to get epa certification in order to sell vehicles...yes. Engines are so complex today it boggles the mind. The plugged intakes from computer controlled egr is a great example of "lessons learned". The "simple" solution...block off the egr. Oems never fixed the oil soot mix plugging our intake systems and intercoolers. Numerous methods are orchestrated by guys like myself to remedy problems with various results. Some work better than others. Guys like me buy or build solutions to fix these "lessons learned". Since my target group is anyone not under a factory or extended warranty I am no different than anyone who came before me to offer alternatives. If you have factory warranty coverage I would not even begin to mess with the vehicle. With all of my "unusual" mods that are "so different" from the norm, I still manage to pass emissions every year and maintain decent fuel economy. I may be down on power with the apparent solution being that of an intercooler. Simplicity has its place.

cevans said:

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater would also apply here.
The VNT system was designed to give basically all the items mentioned in this thread as a "goal", namely making a reliable, responsive turbocharger that can handle more power than a small turbocharger and spools faster than a large one would and therefore allow good power and good efficiency.
All the "issues" with it are things that are either emissions related (soot buildup), easily fixed (stuck actuator) or limitations in the relatively primitive control system (allowing turbocharger spiking). The solution to this is to fix the issues, not make the car run worse by disabling the system.
If you want to manually control the boost or use a non-electronic control you would be better off swapping to a good waste-gated turbocharger that was designed better for more static operation.

Click to expand...

The rules are simple...this thread isn't about who should do what or why or what anyone would be better off doing. If you desire to start your own thread on the merits of wastegate vs vnt turbos and who is better off doing what, be my guest. Don't do it here...

With that being said, you seem to be self defeating. Swap to a wastegate turbo and resolve all of the issues you mentioned above...just give up the merits of the vnt principle...sounds like a self defeating tradeoff in light of vnt working as more or less a self regulating system with the advantages of vnt with the simplicity and reliability of wastegate turbos. Unless I discover some major, major drawbacks, I plan on running this way, you don't have too. If it cuts my fuel economy in half or create egt's so hot it melts parts I can't see going back. For the people with non electronic engines who want the vnt operation well it can be done and should work quite well especially for them.

madcowintucson said:

Don't do it here...

Click to expand...

Read his post again as he's not discussing those merits.

As you've yet to provide us with anything but talk at this point in time, this thread has little direction. Post your solution as if it were not a trade secret and then we can actually add value to what you're doing here. Until then, you kinda aren't living up to expectations

Digital Corpus said:

Read his post again as he's not discussing those merits.
As you've yet to provide us with anything but talk at this point in time, this thread has little direction. Post your solution as if it were not a trade secret and then we can actually add value to what you're doing here. Until then, you kinda aren't living up to expectations

Click to expand...

I read his post, he compared the two schemes and made a recommendation based upon the merits of both. It's very chivalrous of you to defend someone him, you two must be very close. I have concluded my op lists all the "direction" intended, I cannot apologize if you can't follow along. I disagree with your theory that all intellectual property should be freely given away. I believe Ayn Rand wrote a book about that, Google it. Minus disclosing actual intellectual property via pictures which, in all honesty and embarrassingly enough I can't seem to post, it is a very basic and simple principle to grasp moving a rod 12mm or so back and forth. If you cannot grasp that principle then I don't think there is anything you can add of value for or against what I have done here. As for "expectations", since you failed to state yours, I have to reasonably infer you mean mine, of which I have more than exceeded. So ill take it as a simple bombing of my thread which is greatly unappreciated. Please don't do it again.

Well happy to report everything is working just fine. Still waiting on the ECU programmer to send back a file removing limp modes so I can play with this a little bit more. Right now it's set up so I don't have any limp mode issues, but I want to play with the boost curve more. Next step will be adding back an intercooler and intake and maybe a larger downpipe. It's just when I give it that last 10% or so throttle that boost slowely climbs, but it definitely hits 20 psi and stops for about 90% throttle. The internal spring, I am told, should be fully compressed at 18 psi on a warm motor. They do not tell me what "warm" means however. So for a simple, barebones, need something to work method to control vanes, this will do the job. Also this was made to be a direct drop in replacement for the factory actuator. A kit would come with everything needed to just bolt this right on. You will still need to tap a boost source and that will be up to the end uuser. Mine is in my compressor volute, but I think the best way would be to weld on an aluminum AN bung at the compressor discharge, one can also be welded to the actuator, but it's not required. You can now swap one of these turbos on any project and be good to go. I will be very interested in how larger turbos will respond, I think we can adjust spool up and just set maximum psi. Larger turbo will act as a smaller turbo until pressure moves the actuator and then as exhaust flow increases, slows the turbine to maintain X psi.

This is interesting, especially for those with TDK/all mechanical pumps, being able to utilize VN-technology with this.
Having a PD TDI, with no issues regarding boost regulation in the 70k km I have owned the vehicle (disconnected vacuum from EGR), I see no reason to switch systems myself.

Keep up the good work!

Edit: Tipped my mate with a mk3 Golf TDK about this.

That escalated quickly

Trying to understand how this could be a better method of boost regulation:
Does it make a stronger actuation, more easily overcoming soot buildup and/or corrotion on the variable nozzle mechanism?
Can it spool just as quickly, but hold pressure more steady through the rev band (sorry I'm not so good at understanding boost log)?

To quote the first post

To have the same or better response from turbo
To eliminate or minimize or eliminate "spiking"
To to maintain or increase fuel economy
To maintain or increase reliability
To eliminate vanes "sticking"
To be user tunable (if needed) without computers
To have maximum spool with user definable maximum pressure
Vanes default position are closed instead of open, so in case of failure
turbo will still produce pressure, instead of no pressure.

Click to expand...

Ok, put in lower pressure spring, deleted limp mode with tune from tuner, adjusted set screw for rapid spool up. Hits 15 psi and stops. In 4th gear at 3500 rpms and up with full throttle will reach 20 psi and stop. Suppose I could play with a manual boost controller, but happy enough right now. 43 avg mpg so far, no smoke at all. Still need intercooler, but I forget I have 200,000 miles on the car. If I swap back to the other spring it is between 20 and 25. This spring seems to be 15 to 20. Not sure if that's exactly matching the manufacturer specs, but they didn't build it for vnt. Can't get more than 15 psi in 5th gear on Highway without hitting 1200 egt under full throttle. Rpms are to low and I am about 2500 rpms at 75 mph. Actually egts are lower than before but almost the same under all circumstances since I have installed the guage even with the vaccum system. Fuel is fuel and I think I am at the limit without the intercooler or nos. i, am at around 600 egt at 75 mph 2500 rpm. Car drives like this, boost is always constant except at idle, hits 15 psi quick and stops from, guessing here, 20% to 80% throttle. You shift and there is still boost. So even though the boost Guage stops at 15 you just keep applying throttle and the engine responds. So it works in a diesel but you couldn't do this in a gas motor because of the a/f ratio. Course a gas engine does have a throttle plate so maybe that would just choke the turbo to slow down. Well this works for me until I get an intercooler. I would rather plateau at 15 psi then peak at 20 psi than spike at 25 or 30 and drop to whatever. Or plateau at 20 and peak at 25. All this time I have never had compressor surge yet. I think when I cryo treated the turbo it really helped it live when maybe it shouldn't have.

Happy holidays everyone!

Sounds good; please keep us posted on further developments.

http://youtu.be/5KCSf6ik4lcYeah driving today around town my mileage is back up to 50 mpg avg. That's stop and go city driving. I am looking into this electronic boost controller that can work of throttle position. Then I can add in the lowest pressure spring and use the solenoid to regulate boost off the tps signal. People can buy the actuator first, swap over, then later if they desire can use the ebc, of course a mbc may work just as well, I don't have one to play with yet. Although 15 psi is low for power, it's OK for non inter-cooled use. According to my tuner, the ECU no longer has any control over boost regulation, and I am completely on my own here by disabling limp mode. The control if fully regulated by my actuator (which was before). So I think for non inter-cooled use, I will call it the 15 to 20 psi spring, then for 20 to 25 psi inter cooled use I will just call it a 20 to 25 psi spring.
Again I need to stress, this work was performed on a vnt17vb turbo, different turbos may yield different results, and some adjustments may need to be made on a case by case basis. And this will work on any vacuum actuated turbo with a set screw, but with some bracketry work could work on turbos without a set screw. All II am doing is modifying an aftermarket actuator to bolt up, but I am not yet in business, this is a hobby, I am hoping enough interest will generate to turn for profit.

ok guys, I finally made a video for you and posted it on you-tube. here is the link:
http://youtu.be/5KCSf6ik4lc

now you can just watch it and see what you think=]

It generally seems in control of boost, though it's a little difficult to tell with your 60 psi boost gauge when you're only using 1/4-1/3 of the gauge. Does your tune regulate fuel off of MAP or MAF or both?

RPM and load will significantly effect boost response.

Just regulates off the map srnsor. Yeah it is easier to see the video on a large screen, the video is in 1080p, but it still could be a chore. Rpm with little load can still spin the turbo to 15 psi or wherever I have it set. by the way if the turbine isn't spinning fast enough it also chokes flow. So I can't just floor it at 1500 rpm in 5th gear at 15 psi and expect it to make more than 15 psi because of those reasons. In first gear it would be no problem. Because the engine can rev and pump. But I am ok with where it's at because I don't have an intercooler. Anyways, as long as I am in the appropriate gear it's a none issue although I would prefer to see more boost available on the highway, so I am contemplating if I installed a mbc then I can of course raise the boost, probably get a constant 20 psi. Or if I shorten the rod if may lessen the affect, similar if I was simply going faster on the highway, in 5th gear. If I was turning 3000 rpm on the highway it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Well I finally got this actuator dialed in. Maybe I will post a new video. Working very good now, milage is better than ever, I have all the power the setup can produce and egts are typical for the setup, which is to say low. I can guarantee It will operate just like factory.

Now I have it adjusted so my cruise is between 0 and 5 psi, max boost is about 22 psi. Milage averages 50 mpg both city and highway combined. Car revs great and boost response is plenty fast. I checked the vane lever and I can flick it with my finger it's so free and smooth. Egts around town are 200 to 600 degrees and 75 mph highway is about 800 degrees. If I want more turbo boost I have up to 3 ways to get it with simple adjustments. Now I believe I have the boost creep issue resolved as well

So if anyone wants to test this out just message me.

madcowintucson said:

I can guarantee It will operate just like factory.

Click to expand...

Are you able to taper off boost at the higher RPMs? (To allow higher boost midrange and taper off to avoid overspeeding the compressor wheel?) If not, it isn't operating like factory boost control and you are not able to get the same peak torque figures out of it.

Alcaid said:

Are you able to taper off boost at the higher RPMs? (To allow higher boost midrange and taper off to avoid overspeeding the compressor wheel?) If not, it isn't operating like factory boost control and you are not able to get the same peak torque figures out of it.

Click to expand...

Explain what you are talking about. It's not going to overspeed the compressor. It's going to angle the vanes as boost increases with rpm to maintain a set maximum psi. As long as I have owned my car it never tapered boost down at higher rpms so I am not following what you are saying. Does your boost fall off at higher rpms?

boost is supposed to fall of at higher RPMs to protect the turbo, it does this stock and it will do it when tuned.

how much is it supposed to fall off?