Car won't start troubleshooting

VChristian

Veteran Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Location
Western NY
TDI
99.5 Jetta, (2) 02 Jetta, 03 Jetta, 15 Jetta
ECT sensor is linear, and accurate at start. I have a SGII connected, and it reads ambient. I checked linearity by using a patch of black electrical tape and using a passive IR thermometer on the head.

Starter cranks at 189 RPM per VAGCOM. I wouldn't argue with that speed. It's always cranked there. So I tried another new one, and it cranks at the same reading.

Battery was good, and tested good, but after dealing with this, I was willing to try that. Still behaves the same.

I'll advance the timing to the edge of the envelope.
 

twoofus18

Active member
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Location
Arlington, tx
TDI
2002 Jetta
2002 TDI slow starting

I have a 2002 jetta alh. 132k miles.

Problem: Car Cold. It takes about 3 seconds to start.
Car Hot. Coolant Temp 89 C It takes about 8 seconds to start.

Recent Maint: Intake was cleaned. New Sprint Injectors. Fuel Temp Sensor Replaced. New Clutch and Main seal Replaced. Door sensor replaced.

Other observations: No air bubbles are seen the clear fuel line.

Once the engine starts, all seems normal with no drivability issues. Recent top speed noted at 125 mph. Driving in town yields 42 mpg. (Usual stop and go traffic into the office).

When the car starts, the engine is spinning at roughly 300 rpms.

I read a few other posts that suggest that there is a minimum rpm that must be generated before the computer will feed fuel. WhiteDog suggest this is false.

I am considering repacing my injector pumps seals sold by dieselgeek.

Has anyone else had similar startup issues and used the dieselgeek kit to mitigate these startup symptoms? I have read with great interest all the folks who have 99.5 models, but I have a newer model. Even though the symptoms are nearly identical, I am hesitant to believe the solutions to their slow starting issues will be the same as mine. Regardless, all suggestions and comments are welcome.

Thank you all for being part of this wonderful community which openly shares experience and information.
 
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JONZDOG

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2001
Location
ROBBINSDALE MN
TDI
JETTA WGN, 2004, SILVER
Second summer in a row I have had this hard to start issue when it is warm outside. I worked 8 hours today went out to start car in the sun and it cranked and cranked. Does the lift pump vibrate when key is turned? I am thinking about replacing it. I live in MN and cold weather starting is never a issue
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
You should be able to hear the lift pump hum, in your PD engined car, for about a second each time the key is turned from off to on.

If you take the center hose off of the fuel filter, and stick it into a jar or can, it should spit out about 50 cc of fuel or more each time.

While the PD's rarely start in the first rotation like some ALH's, they should routinely start in the first 1.5 seconds very reliably.

If you can beg or borrow a VCDS you can log group 5 during starting starting and it may help determine the cause.
 

JONZDOG

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2001
Location
ROBBINSDALE MN
TDI
JETTA WGN, 2004, SILVER
Yea I removed the fuel line like you suggested. No fuel is observed when key is turned. Must be the heat somehow caused the system to loose prime. Ordering the fuel pump today.
 

slam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
San Jose, California
TDI
1996 Passat TDI B4V Wagon
Thanks for this awesome thread! I am very impressed with the quality of info being shared on these forums!

I was just cruising along at 65 MPH on the highway when I had a sudden near-total loss of power in my '96 Passat TDI. I began to slowly lose speed and no working of the pedal had any effect. I managed to pull over and the motor died. I waited perhaps a minute and cranked it and it started fine, I had full power and pulled back out on the road. It ran for perhaps a few minutes then the total sudden loss of power again. I pulled off and this time it took maybe five minutes of crank/wait/crank/wait before it fired up and idled totally smoothly for about a minute or two. Then it died again and no amount of cranking in the world helped.

Cranking produced gray/blue smoke when it would not start; never did this before. That suggests unburned fuel to me, which suggests injector timing or turbo problem.

The power loss was so sudden and total that I suspect the issue can't be in the fuel line or filter, but I replaced and bled the fuel filter anyway (I happened to have bought a spare a week before). I have a 12v pump in-line and used it to prime the filter. I can confirm good fuel from the tank to the pump... it's not a ton, the pump puts out just a steady trickle.

I thought perhaps there could be giant chunk of garbage inside the IP that randomly block and then fell off some internal orifice. I have no way to get in the pump to tell though. I though too that the timing belt may have jumped a tooth, but that would not explain the temporary return of the power.

Reading through this thread I now suspect either the Relay 109, or maybe a vacuum line somewhere. I'm going to poke around now that it is light again.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The vacuum line would cause a loss of power, but it would not die.

Does your glow plug light come on momentarily when you turn the key to on? If it does this would rule out the 109 relay.

Look for a broken wire to your fuel cutoff solenoid (mounted on your injector pump), perhaps.

Any CEL or codes?
 

slam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
San Jose, California
TDI
1996 Passat TDI B4V Wagon
I don't recall ever seeing my glow plug light light up. Strangely enough I thought it was some weird thing with this model that VW didn't think it was needed because the glow plugs start when the driver's side door is closed, not when the key is turned. But I am about to go look at that, and the wire too.

I don't recall any warning lights when the original problem occurred. I can't get codes without VAGCOM right? I'm stuck in Willits CA on a Sunday with little hope of advanced VW help.

Here's some possible related issues:

EGR Controller's air line was disconnected from the air cleaner box for who knows how long, and I live on a dirt road so I am sure it's sucked up tons of crap. Air cleaner box lid only had engine-side clamps clamped, so I have been sucking unfiltered air. Both problems are mostly likely from the oil change shop, they last checked my air filter.

I recently had two oil sensors replaced. My mechanic claimed they were the source of an oil leak.

My mechanic mentioned a fuel leak around the belt-side of the IP. I could be sucking air but I doubt that would cause total lack of power or the sudden temporary revival.
 
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DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The dirty air will do no good for your vacuum components, or your engine, where some of it will end up.

The fuel leak on the shaft of the IP can leak fuel on your timing belt causing it to start failing.

I, too, doubt that it would cause a problem with air intrusion at highway speed.

If you don't get a glowplug light when you turn on the key, it is probably the relay 109.
 

slam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
San Jose, California
TDI
1996 Passat TDI B4V Wagon
Success!

It was the fuel shutoff solenoid. It had zero volts. I jumped it from the battery and the car fired right up.

I didn't discover that right away though. First I attacked the vacuum hoses, which were trashed. I bought some rubber hose (that's what Napa Auto had) and went to work, before remembering the previous owner saying something about vacuum hoses. So I popped the spare tire lid and found, yay, a complete set of McMaster (sp?) silicon color-coded hoses.

Good thing too, because the N75's air intake hose had been repaired with electrical tape. I also found that whatever the thingamajig is behind the battery had a hose so soft it was kinked flat, probably impeding any airflow. Everything else was almost as trashed. I'm surprised the car ran at all. The back lower hose was a total ***** and I had to borrow a mirror/flashlight to get to it.

I suspect, but can't prove, that the ECM was getting bogus info from the bad hoses about the engine state. If the ECM thinks the engine is not running, it will shut off the fuel. Since I jumped the solenoid and changed the hoses the problem has not returned, though I supposed it could still be a break in a wire somewhere.

Thanks again for the amazing advice on this forum! Total cost for me was about $30 in parts and tools and 4 hours of my time, including some duplicate efforts with the wrong hose, troubleshooting electrical issues and pulling fuses and the Relay 109 for inspection, and dealing with that terrible rear vacuum nipple.
 

adamh72

New member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Location
Tennessee
TDI
2001 Jetta
Was this problem Resolved?

chariotdriver said:
No, only on the fuel filter outlet. I did notice then when I was trying to fill the hose from the fliter to the injector pump that the fluid level kept going down ever time I filled it up, I was holding the hose up vertical and adding Diesel through a smaller hose. I finally realized that the fluid must be going out the exit hose on the pump since there was no fuel leaking that I could detect. Is this normal? Do you think I still need to test with a pump on the fuel exit hose of the injector pump? Should the fuel flow through the pump easily?

Thanks

Dan H
I'm having the signs and symptoms. How was this issue resolved. I have a mechanic that believes I have a broken cam shaft. Possible, but seems improbable
 

JONZDOG

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2001
Location
ROBBINSDALE MN
TDI
JETTA WGN, 2004, SILVER
I replaced the lift pump 16 days ago the wife has had no problems with the car starting. Thanks DanG144
 
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Tom Servo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Location
LA (Lower Alabama)
TDI
2005 Gol TDI, blue and falling apart
I looked through all these posts and didn't see this, so here's another combination to add to the list:

Turn the key to the ON position and no dash lights come on, but DRLs light. The engine will turn over, but does not start. If I leave the key in the on position for anywhere from 10-60 seconds, I hear an audible click under the dash and all the warning lights come on, then the car starts normally.

This is an 05 Golf.

The ignition switch is an aftermarket replacement; the original burned out recently. I am wondering if one of the wires coming from it has worked loose, but I don't have a Bentley so I dunno what all the wires do, aside from a red positive and black negative.
 
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DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
l_c said:
John, you should probably try to describe more about what happens when you turn the ignition key to crank the starter; meaning, what kind of sound does it make.
Also, what led up to this event ... was the car working normally, you drove home, shut it down, and the next day it suddenly won't start?
Can you get the ECM codes scanned (via VAG-COM/VDS, or using a 3rd party code scanner, etc.)
Larry
Larry,
I emailed him and he phoned. John had a loss of fuel, air intrusion, after changing the fuel filter. He is running again.

He knows now that the glow plugs don't help starting in warm weather. And about air inleakage problems.

Dan
Dan
 

Tom Servo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Location
LA (Lower Alabama)
TDI
2005 Gol TDI, blue and falling apart
l_c said:
Tom - Immobilizer???

Larry
That was my first thought, but the engine itself cranks. I'd think the immobilizer would disable the starter too. But who knows. The OEM ignition switch came today and so far seems to have fixed the "it thinks the key is always in the ignition" issue. So we'll see if I have more starting troubles tomorrow. This morning it was 5 good minutes before the dash lights came on and the car started. :(
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Zach, how bout ECM ground connection.
And Does it have the neutral safety switch?
Pull the parking brakes, DRL shld turn off.
Also, how about putting a Volt meter on the system, and watching it as you try to start up?
Something must be sagging, or not charging up.
 
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DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Tom Servo said:
That was my first thought, but the engine itself cranks. I'd think the immobilizer would disable the starter too. But who knows. The OEM ignition switch came today and so far seems to have fixed the "it thinks the key is always in the ignition" issue. So we'll see if I have more starting troubles tomorrow. This morning it was 5 good minutes before the dash lights came on and the car started. :(
The starter will turn, the engine will fire for a second or two, then shut off when the immobilizer kicks in. This is from reading posts here only, not personal experience.
 

Tom Servo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Location
LA (Lower Alabama)
TDI
2005 Gol TDI, blue and falling apart
l_c said:
Zach, how bout ECM ground connection.
And Does it have the neutral safety switch?
Pull the parking brakes, DRL shld turn off.
Also, how about putting a Volt meter on the system, and watching it as you try to start up?
Something must be sagging, or not charging up.
I don't think it's a voltage issue, at least not at the starter. I'll be prodding around the steering column if the problem persists. Got the new ignition switch in last night, so I'll see if it acts up. Lots of starts today, though, with no problems.

Thinking back to the times it wouldn't start, I seem to recall the DRLs coming on even with the parking brake engaged. BUT — there is a tiny tiny place where the key can sit between the off and on position that turns on the DRLs no matter what… So it could still (hopefully) could've been the aftermarket ignition switch.

DanG144 said:
The starter will turn, the engine will fire for a second or two, then shut off when the immobilizer kicks in. This is from reading posts here only, not personal experience.
Ah okay. The engine itself is not firing at all, so I think I can rule out the immobilizer for the moment.

I appreciate your (and everyone's) help on this, though. Wish me luck. ;)
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Zach, the fuel cutoff solenoid may not have been energized, when the engine won't fire.
Anti shudder valve is behaving ok?
Larry
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Click under the switch - something burned out the old switch is likely to do so to the current one. Get an OEM replacement, and if the issue continues, look at relays.
 

slam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
San Jose, California
TDI
1996 Passat TDI B4V Wagon
Heya!

I have a suggested for a new top-level no-start condition: "car runs fine, but will not start or requires long cranking time after sitting for several hours." I do see this covered in the links under "you had something in your fuel system...", but it took me a while to get there as none of the top level description didn't match my problem, so I went through them all.

I suspect a bad o-ring or other air entry, I'll know more tomorrow.

Great thread, saved my ass a few months ago when my Passat died while rolling in the middle of nowhere. This thread and 24hrs later and I was rolling again with a jumpered Fuel Shutoff Solenoid.

Question: will owning a Passat always be like this, or will it eventually stabilize and run trouble-free for a while?
 

Blunders500

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Location
London, UK
TDI
'96 Golf Mk3 1.9
1.9TDi Wont Start ('96 Mk3)

Hi Guys,

Hopefully you can point me in the right direction.
My Golf normally runs very well indeed and I've had many years of trouble free motoring..... Until the last couple of weeks.

Problem: Would not start.
Normally starts first time. recently it was taking several turns of the key to get going, taking more and more attempts until this weekend it would not start at all (indicates something getting progressivle worse).
Turn key, all indicators on the dash come on as normal, glow light on for 2-4 seconds then off again.
Turn key to ignition - zero - i did not hear any clicking under the hood.
Called the breakdown man and we managed to bump start it no problem, did this several times over the weekend. Once started it runs fine.

Reading posts I initially suspected the Relay 109, however I think if this was shot, the car wouldn't run at all (?).
I am now suspecting something in the start circuit - possibly starter motor itself, or connections to it per the posts at the top?

If anybody could give me some pointers it would be greatly appriciated.
 
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l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Slam and blunders, any sign of air in the fuel sight tube leading into the pump, or fuel seeped out beneath the pump?
Larry
 

Blunders500

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Location
London, UK
TDI
'96 Golf Mk3 1.9
Cheers Dan - Finishing work soon and will be having a go at discovering what the issue is.
Larry - not sure that its fuel as the car runs once bumped - will check it though.
 

PaPa Bulldog

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Location
Bennington, Vermont
TDI
1998 Jetta Boost Master
Blunders, am sorry to hear your car is giving you, well Blunders:D Sorry had to mate:D What is it that you drive? I just had a recent bout with a perculiar NSC ( No Start Condition ) My 98 Jetta like yours got progressively harder to start. It would start after having to cycle the key 3-4 times. Then for some odd reason it would only start in the morning:confused: :confused: :confused: Contacts in the Start Switch cold???
When I was leaving for work in the evening I would have to have a fella give me a bump start. I owe my co-workers a few pints for that week of help:D

I RULE out your 109 relay because if that was suspect it would be like having someone pull the plug on the cars electronics. Your GP lights wouldn't cycle when you turned the key. NOTHING would work.

It can be the starter ( had it checked at a parts distributor for free ) , the igntion switch ( Both I repaired because they were shot ). The wiring in between. Dont rule out corroded battery cables, or freyd cables.

Have a mate turn the car over while you have you hand on the starter solenoid ( On top of starter ). Do you hear a click or feel anything? Give it some whacks with your BFH while you fella is turning the key. Remove the starter and have it bench tested at a parts distributor. Normally its all the clutch dust that stops the bendix from activating. Mine had alot. Was all excited when I first turned the key after I had R+R'd my starter. It fired up first try. I parked the car, and went back to work. I was rudely presented with a NSC when I wanted to go home that evening!!!:mad:

I purchased the electrical portion of the ignition start switch around $ 30 USD, and that too took about an hour to replace. The hardest part was the FGKHF^%$%$%^#$ Set screw that VW put in at the worst angle on the steering coloum. Do a search for R+R of the ignition Switch. There is a good thread with pictures that helped me out emmensly. The only thing I did wrong was not to mark on the coloum where I removed the steering wheel, and am a few teeth off. That bugs me. Does anyone have a fix for that???

Blunders I wish you luck. Do some searching, and let us know how you make out. If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask



Cheers,


Papa Bulldog

Bart
 
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Blunders500

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Location
London, UK
TDI
'96 Golf Mk3 1.9
Thanks very much for the advice - got to do some work on my bicycle first this evening, but will be onto the car later. will let you know how i get on!

thanks again.
 
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