270bhp on stock injectors? (PD130 ASZ)

Please read this thread.

Is this true? I've read on the internet, the injectors are maxed out at 220bhp, yet this guy believes to have 270bhp out of his?

Who's right, and who's wrong here?

If he modified the fuel system to produce 45,000 psi yeah sure you could do it with stock nozzles. Otherwise the meager 30,000 psi will not generate the volume needed to hit that power level.

It's BS

He is running methanol too, so depends how well that is setup.

Methanol = Lower BTU content (massively so), therefore he would have to bump the pressures even higher to get BTU density per unit of fuel delivered in each injection stroke...

Diesel BTU per Pound: 19,000
Methanol BTU per pound: 8,600

With every part of Methanol he'd have to at minimum more than DOUBLE the injected volume...OR you could in another way say that his power output would be cut 220% FOR EVERY unit of Methanol used that replaces diesel fuel.

Further BS is that the Methanol with an OCTANE rating of 99 would kill the engines combustion efficiency! In other words it would inhibit the auto-ignition characteristics of the diesel fuel so much for making more power or for that matter being able to run efficiently above 2000 rpm where HP is made.

So far PURE BS.......

If he is running water methanol injection, it's still not going to make more power.

He'd still have to deliver more fuel, again this comes back to peak pressure. Then he'd have to run NO2 to clean it up and help speed up the combustion process to make use of that increased fuel delivery.

You can trick many dyno's into showing bogus data, I suspect this to be the case. 220hp, yeah possible, more than that without significant modifications, not possible.

I agree its bs
My mate is also a jabba lover he's been in both my car and so called 270hp the difference is day and night.

It is a GT25 turbo too - not to be sniffed at when tuned correctly. I have nothing but respect from Jabba as they tuned a lot of my early car setups, so I wouldn't have a bad word said against them - just need some 3rd party dyno evidence.

Friggerpants said:

Please read this thread.

Is this true? I've read on the internet, the injectors are maxed out at 220bhp, yet this guy believes to have 270bhp out of his?

Who's right, and who's wrong here?

Click to expand...

Well, there have been several 210-220 WHP dyno's with PD130/150 injectors here in the states with our rot gut fuel. 17 hybrids, 20's, and GTB22's have made these levels. I don't know the exact difference between BHP and WHP, but I'd imagine at least 10%, maybe upwards of 15%. Couple that, with the better fuel quality in EU and we're looking at an optimistic 253 bhp. Now, if the vnt25 is pushing serious air (SERIOUS) and there was real good tuning (REAL GOOD), you might get another 10-15 bhp. If all those stars lined up, AND the dyno was a little more optimistic than most, it may (MAY) be possible to almost hit 270 bhp

The only thing thats going to bump power is BTU's, European fuel has higher cetane but similar if not identical BTU content. In other words our fuel is pretty much on par with anything they have except the 5 point difference in Cetane.

Jason i've got nothing against jabba but i just dont believe 270hp is possible. When i had a 1852 i ran almost 40 degree fuel duration with wmi and made 230bhp. Since then i've set up at least 3 vnt 17 hybrids and made 215bhp with 37 degree duration. This why i believe its not possible to get 270 hp from stock nozzles.

devonutopia said:

It is a GT25 turbo too - not to be sniffed at when tuned correctly. I have nothing but respect from Jabba as they tuned a lot of my early car setups, so I wouldn't have a bad word said against them - just need some 3rd party dyno evidence.

Click to expand...

So if we stick a GT37V on an ASZ with standard nozzles and a bit of meth what will that get us???

Come on Jason surely you know turbo size isn't the issue here.

Once again a case of total BS from the Brits lmao!

Wonder what the chances of getting this guy to an independent dyno day would be.

Someone link him to this thread lol

Jabba are also my favorite, never had a bad map from them, or never been diddled with results at other RR days after the Jabba results.
Had 3 cars mapped by them now.
Id expect to see 270bhp from that spec, running seriously high boost with meth properly mapped, they know what they are doing. Thats an attractive torque curve too.
I was running 32psi when i got 240bhp at Jabba from a 1749 with water meth running 2.1bar.
Although id like to see how long his head gasket lasts at 35psi, ive heard of them going with 37/38psi. (they might have uprated this of course with the stage 3).
p.s i am not intending to get involved in arguements, just my opinion personal here over the space of 5-6years with Jabbasport.

Diesels dont make power from just boost you need fuel and the stock nozzles are flat out by 220hp MAX. I've tried wmi and it doesnt give 20hp like you might read, it does however reduce egts.
If people really think they are making more than 220hp then please go and do 1/4 mile and report back the terminal speed.

Yeah, with 270bhp he should be trapping in the 105mph+ range right?

Phil something like that depending on the weight

Methanol may have a lesser btu on its own than straight diesel fuel but try adding some N20 into the mix before righting it off!!


And as for a trap speed over how much hp someone is running well! most fwd cars which have close to 300hp have big problems in putting down its power and these motors usually have around 300lbs or 350lbs of torque at best , when having 400lbs plus you got big big problems and where the larger turbo being a little slower to max boost is a good thing.

mojogoes said:

Methanol may have a lesser btu on its own than straight diesel fuel but try adding some N20 into the mix before righting it off!!

And as for a trap speed over how much hp someone is running well! most fwd cars which have close to 300hp have big problems in putting down its power and these motors usually have around 300lbs or 350lbs of torque at best , when having 400lbs plus you got big big problems and where the larger turbo being a little slower to max boost is a good thing.

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There is now way stock injectors will make that power no matter what you do.

I guess you don't watch much drag racing then??

Its about how you but the power down on the road. My misses has a 05 Zafria VXR. Its putting out 307bhp and 332lbft and I cant get 13 sec 1/4 miles all day long. Its big, heavy and lights the tyres easy, but I know how to put the power down. Once its lunched (Which is not hard) and rolling the power control is easy.

Courtenay sport who have done all the work to her VXR have an Astra VXR running 550bhp with 500lbft and its front wheel drive, that does easy 10 sec 1/4 miles and is a daily driver. They also worked on a friends 07 Vectra 150 CDTI and thats pumping out 298bhp and 470lbft and does 12-13 sec 1/4 miles too.

My pride and joy is my Evo 9 FQ340 now running 400bhp and 400lbft but that a whole different ball game.

So how is having 400lbs any different, if there is then No point in trying to driving it.

For one your talking about petrol motors vs diesels which use there torque in different places my mk3 tdi had around 450lbs and was a real brute to get the power down........12/13sec's which is it? there a world apart when talking about diesels.

I could also mention cars that friends of mine have or tune that run in the "ten of the best" but this is not the place for that sort of talk and most of those cars started out life with a good amount of power oe..........my mk3 golf laughed at 330d's and certain Carrera's........a Zafria VX'xxxx do me a faver

DIESELS MY FRIEND DIESELS!!

My point is If you have the power you will have high terminal speed regardless of the actual 1/4 miles time. Therefore this will provide better evidence if the car is making the power.

mojogoes said:

For one your talking about petrol motors vs diesels which use there torque in different places my mk3 tdi had around 450lbs and was a real brute to get the power down........12/13sec's which is it? there a world apart when talking about diesels.

I could also mention cars that friends of mine have or tune that run in the "ten of the best" but this is not the place for that sort of talk and most of those cars started out life with a good amount of power oe..........my mk3 golf laughed at 330d's and certain Carrera's........a Zafria VX'xxxx do me a faver

DIESELS MY FRIEND DIESELS!!

Click to expand...

The Zafira's torque peaks at 2800rpm and peak power not that much higher, so how is that different to a diesel?? Not all petrol peak at 7-8k rpm. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Most bigger power diesels power and torque is higher in their rev range FACT.

My friends Vectra DIESEL has run a 12.8 twice at its best but does 13.1 - 13.4 mostly with well over 107mph terminal speed every time.

I guess the 330d's, which aren't that quick standard and Carrera's you say your "MK3 laughed at" where clearly out matched by 450lbft and weight!!

Anyway this is off topic...............................stock injector will not make that power.

Bobby Singh said:

My point is If you have the power you will have high terminal speed regardless of the actual 1/4 miles time. Therefore this will provide better evidence if the car is making the power.

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Agreed. Dyno's can lie very easy. Dyno's give you a ruff idea/ball park figure. I've seen 1 or 2 cars on 1 dyno and then go to another and 2 days later made totally different power. This has made very unhappy owners after parting with loads of money. Normally the power is down on what they first had on their tuners dyno, which helps them to look good!!

Pieman said:

The Zafira's torque peaks at 2800rpm and peak power not that much higher, so how is that different to a diesel?? Not all petrol peak at 7-8k rpm. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Most bigger power diesels power and torque is higher in their rev range FACT.

My friends Vectra DIESEL has run a 12.8 twice at its best but does 13.1 - 13.4 mostly with well over 107mph terminal speed every time.

I guess the 330d's, which aren't that quick standard and Carrera's you say your "MK3 laughed at" where clearly out matched by 450lbft and weight!!

Anyway this is off topic...............................stock injector will not make that power.



Agreed. Dyno's can lie very easy. Dyno's give you a ruff idea/ball park figure. I've seen 1 or 2 cars on 1 dyno and then go to another and 2 days later made totally different power. This has made very unhappy owners after parting with loads of money. Normally the power is down on what they first had on their tuners dyno, which helps them to look good!!

Click to expand...

A car with stock injectors my friend can definitely make this power , !HOW! well if its got another type of fuel supply of course , its no big deal!!...........stick to gassa's

mojogoes said:

A car with stock injectors my friend can definitely make this power , !HOW! well if its got another type of fuel supply of course , its no big deal!!...........stick to gassa's

Click to expand...

And as for 330d's being slow as standard Uumm.

mojogoes said:

Methanol may have a lesser btu on its own than straight diesel fuel but try adding some N20 into the mix before righting it off!!


And as for a trap speed over how much hp someone is running well! most fwd cars which have close to 300hp have big problems in putting down its power and these motors usually have around 300lbs or 350lbs of torque at best , when having 400lbs plus you got big big problems and where the larger turbo being a little slower to max boost is a good thing.

Click to expand...

Please note:

Car in question is not on N20.

Just WMI.

I think, Luke, in the context of your question, I think it's a case of 'forget it'.

Hi btw

270 bhp are possible with stock nozzles, also a friend of mine with an ibiza cupra tdi (BUK) has about 265-270 bhp with my repro. Specs are:
-dbilas dynamics camshaft
-turbo 2260V
-cda airbox
-exaust line 2,5" no kat
-gasoil and oil cooler
-stock nozzles
Duration is very high 44 degree and 1 degree of injection advance!
Performance is similar to mine 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec at 173km/h.
For me over 250 bhp is better put in larger nozzle to reduce duration.

Friggerpants said:

Please note:

Car in question is not on N20.

Just WMI.

Click to expand...

I know it wasn't i was just making a point , but Claudio-FR made the point even better!

Claudio-FR said:

270 bhp are possible with stock nozzles, also a friend of mine with an ibiza cupra tdi (BUK) has about 265-270 bhp with my repro. Specs are:
-dbilas dynamics camshaft
-turbo 2260V
-cda airbox
-exaust line 2,5" no kat
-gasoil and oil cooler
-stock nozzles
Duration is very high 44 degree and 1 degree of injection advance!
Performance is similar to mine 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec at 173km/h.
For me over 250 bhp is better put in larger nozzle to reduce duration.

Click to expand...

is it safe to run such high duration?

Bobby Singh said:

My point is If you have the power you will have high terminal speed regardless of the actual 1/4 miles time. Therefore this will provide better evidence if the car is making the power.

Click to expand...

x2 that's my understanding as well.

Car of my friend has made 199k km never any problems at engine but naturally with so high duration EGT's are high amplified also by very short gearbox of cupra tdi.

"and the stock nozzles are flat out by 220hp MAX"

Not sure i buy this, whp maybe but I think they can do more than that at the crank. I have a bpx(160pd from cupra) in my jetboat direct coupled to a pump with a fixed power absorption curve so no driveline losses. It will turn a 9.5" impeller to 3700rpm with the 1749vb and a bit over 3800 with a bv50 on it and no retune for the bigger turbo. According to the pump manufacturers power absorption chart it takes 230.56hp to turn a 9.5" impeller to 3700 and 249.76hp to turn it 3800rpm. The injectors are stock and I'm pretty sure they are the same injectors as the 150pd's and I think some of the 130pd's are supposed to use the same ones as well. The other variable would be the accuracy of the tach. I am running the stock ibiza cluster and tach. Anyone know how accurate these usually are.

aRd said:

is it safe to run such high duration?

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Yeah, wow @44 degrees. Seems a bit excessive off the top of my head?

Claudio- FR - thanks for your input but 44 degree duration is very high. Must be VERY smokey as when i had "only" 40 degree the smoke was embarrassing to the point i didnt want to WOT when someone was behind me.

Jabba are respect tuner in the UK for VAG and their workmanship is very good so I do not see them releasing a car on the uk that looks like this for eg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSVFwKlp3Os

If you want to learn why its bad to run such high duration read this http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266791&highlight=520cc

Post 3 says it all really.