maxedtdi
Veteran Member
Yea but just a little confused by build date of pump or car...
CR engine HPFP analysis
- Thread starter oilhammer
- Start date
emdeeaitch
Veteran Member
That is a good point. When VW said they made a fuel pump revision in a particular month, I would assume/guess that they mean to the pump itself and by transfer to the Golf. The reason I guess this way is that changes will come first (relative to the car build date) to the Golf before the come to the Jetta, because Jettas are presumably built from pre-bundled CKDs ("complete knockdown kits" or something like that) which are shipped over from Germany for assembly, whereas the Golf is built in Germany and gets its parts very quickly. When you compare pump build date to car build date, you will see that Golf's typically get pumps made same month as the car, whereas Jettas get pumps made about 3 months before the car, which is likely the shipping cycle from Germany to Mexico. Lately I have been taking cell phone pics of fuel pumps on each TDI I see, which is how I came to this rather personal conclusion. It is non-scientific and definitely invalid sample!
Another way of putting this (again, just informed conjecture), is that a Jetta CKD that is bundled in Dec. 2010 in Germany, prior to shipment, would probably have a newest version pump in it, but that CKD would not become an actual car until approximately Feb. 2011 in Puebla.
Also, to be accurate, the knockdown kits coming out of Germany are probably not technically "C"KDs, because some of the parts are coming in from other parts of the world to Mexico or being made in Mexico. I just don't know what the term for a partial KD is. PKD?
Nimbus
Member
This is a very long thread, so the following information my have already been provided. Also, the first link references the second.
Save a copy of the pdf because the site will not keep them there for ever.
2012 Passat TDI service training manual
http://152.66.93.29/audi/download/vw/passat/2012 passat.pdf
http://152.66.93.29/audi/download/vw/Engine/TDI/3L TDI.pdf
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Just as a clarification, Jettas are not built from CKD kits. Certain parts - notably engines - are shipped as complete assemblies from Germany, but all the sheet metal is coming from local stamping plants, some from VW's own on-site stamping plant, others from suppliers, and a good many parts are sourced locally to the assembly plant.
But your estimate of the timing is about right. The Golf final assembly is done in Germany and it doesn't take long for an engine to get from the engine plant to the vehicle assembly plant. Engines destined for Jetta, Passat, New Beetle etc have to go by rail to a port in Europe, then shipped across the ocean, then by rail to the assembly plant.
CedarPark68
Veteran Member
Thanks!
torqueit
Veteran Member
The document on the 3.0L TDI engine says about the high pressure fuel pump:
"The benefits of the new high-pressure pump are:
• Produces rail pressures of up to 29,000 PSI (2000
bar)
• Has been adapted to deal with fuel quality issues
• Less force for pressure generation thanks to roller
plunger
• Uniform stress on the pump toothed drive belt
• Greater effi ciency thanks to volume control on the
suction side via N290
• Self-lubricating"
So it has been "adapted"....
"The benefits of the new high-pressure pump are:
• Produces rail pressures of up to 29,000 PSI (2000
bar)
• Has been adapted to deal with fuel quality issues
• Less force for pressure generation thanks to roller
plunger
• Uniform stress on the pump toothed drive belt
• Greater effi ciency thanks to volume control on the
suction side via N290
• Self-lubricating"
So it has been "adapted"....
Nimbus - Thanks for the links.
No - preheating valve in the fuel filter, single in-tank pump. Whats missing from the flow schematic is the source of fuel supplying the "Fuel Line for Aux Heater" (pg 20 of the Passat doc). Very interesting.
No - preheating valve in the fuel filter, single in-tank pump. Whats missing from the flow schematic is the source of fuel supplying the "Fuel Line for Aux Heater" (pg 20 of the Passat doc). Very interesting.
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Thanks for these. Has anyone posted this for the current jetta/jsw/golf engines? Just curious to compare some of the details.
dataiv
Veteran Member
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Thanks
manual_tranny
Smyth Performance- Intern
Pardon my ignorance: how long have the DSGs been doing this?
This is such a cool automatic hypermiling technique... I wonder if VW stayed at a Holiday in last night while browsing tdiclub...VW Self Study Passat said:
I think the free wheel function is new for '12. Saab had free wheel features in vehicles in the late 60's early 70's but when fuel was 30 - 50 cents / gallon no one was interested. I remember my dad pointing it out on one of the Saab's he was working on.
manual_tranny
Smyth Performance- Intern
I have occasionally thrown my Dad's MKV DSG in neutral to save fuel, so I figured it must have been a recent change. No surprise that Saab came up with an idea that was 40-50 years ahead of it's time and fizzled out as fuel prices dropped.
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
However, there are many on this site that will argue that you get better mileage coasting in gear than coasting in neutral.
manual_tranny
Smyth Performance- Intern
... and they would be absolutely correct, if they were going down a hill that maintained their momentum or if they were approaching some point where they would otherwise use their brakes to decelerate.
0.2 gal/hr is the average rate of fuel consumption for a warm, idling ALH. If you're coasting in neutral you'll get 250-400mpg while loosing as little inertia as possible.
When you coast in gear, you use 0 gal/hr but you forgo the opportunity to maintain your momentum.
Both answers are correct for different situations.
40X40
Experienced
Sometimes you get better mileage coasting in gear and sometimes you get better mileage coasting in neutral.
IT DEPENDS on the current circumstances and the immediate future intentions of the driver. Full stop, end of discussion. Surprise!!
KJ, I figure you already knew the answer, but I quoted you because you stated the issue so clearly.
Carry on!
Bill
The 3.0 TDI's HPFP is self-lubricating?
A sump filled with oil constantly bathing the cam and and roller piston would be cool if that's what it has.
Sealed sump or recirculated engine oil through the HPFP maybe?
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
Self-lubricating means that the pump relies on the fluid it is pumping for lubrication.
This is suppose to be a plus since no external lubrication circuits are required.
40X40
Experienced
That is for a PD engine(2006 and older), not a CR(2009 and newer).
North America sales area.......
Bill
Once upon a time long ago we used to discuss adding filtering to the TDI CRs. Our real question was would the filter media handle the ~67 psi. Then VW put their filter in the 2012s at ~67 psi and proved the filter would work.
specsalot had spiffed up my old drawing.
The other ideas have been wait on VW and Bosch. The 2012 design change sends return fuel to the tank and not to the filter. Now a filter inspection does not show early metal particles in case a failure starts.
The filtering pressures have been shown to work by VW. I wonder if the post-warranty VWs are prime for the extra filter. If we would encourage ourselves we might get this done.
eddif
specsalot had spiffed up my old drawing.
Has enough time gone by with the 2012s to let us return to the possible addition of the new filtering? A lot of posts have gone by and nothing has developed as a better idea.Here are flow schematics to understand the revised system. 3 adapters will need to be machined based on dimensions already provided and the type of hose connectors selected for this system.
The other ideas have been wait on VW and Bosch. The 2012 design change sends return fuel to the tank and not to the filter. Now a filter inspection does not show early metal particles in case a failure starts.
The filtering pressures have been shown to work by VW. I wonder if the post-warranty VWs are prime for the extra filter. If we would encourage ourselves we might get this done.
eddif
Are 2012's considered "fixed"?
I doubt the 2012's are fixed. My purpose of bringing up the 2012's is to show that filters with ~67 psi have not destroyed the fuel system.
It is MHO that filtering should remove the wear materials that can take place. The 2012s have not done this (they may have helped in other ways). There are times when gasoline and water can cause failure. If a second filter (added filter) is installed most wear material should be kept out of the CR injectors and fuel tank. Untill the filtering is way better there can be (IMHO) too many full system replacements.
There are not a huge number of failures, and VW is fixing a lot of the ones that do take place. There comes a point when VW will not take care of the cars beyond warranty. It is for these future failures that the whole conversation about adding a filter / filters was started. If we had waited till claims were denied, then we would just be beginning looking for a solution. We went ahead and looked for an owner solution long before solutions were desperately needed. For this preperation we have been labled as (you name it).
The 2012s just show that the filter can be added at ~67 psi.. Nothing more. The 2012s need time to see what is happening with them. There are some advantages to cutting out the boost pump and changing the fuel flow paths (the amount of help is not yet Known). The fact that metal does not appear in the filter housing early on helps folks feel safer (I do not know if the safety exists or is just perceived). Right now a bottom of tank fuel inspection would be to only way to spot developing problems (the in pump filter would stop most metal wear particles before the under-hood filter saw them). People are used to looking at the fuel filter for problems (the warm up valve used to send wear particles there). Now the warm up fuel is fairly clean so there will be little warning at the fuel filter.
This is a wait and see time. My thoughts are just toward being glad the filter will survive at higher pressures. I do suggest we continue to look for partial solutions and not stick our heads in the sand. How to do this without upsetting owners / club members is a problem. I can see new owner design efforts in a positive way, but others seem to go in shock when you try for solutions. Perhaps it is time to seperate the design comments to just this thread. When the comments get beyond here they seem to cause all sorts of bad vibes.
I want to see progress. There is a day coming when a VW TDI CR owner will be the one responsible for the total repair costs for their cars. The existing design demands honesty in looking at what is needed.
Design better solutions; worry less.
eddif
vwmj
Member
I am now a member of the exclusive failed hpfp club. Thanks to this forum I bought an extended warranty. I have a 2009 JSW which I got in 9/2008. It was one of the first ones delivered to Long Island (lucky me). I have 59,000 miles on the car and it is currently at the dealer where they are working with the warranty company to determine coverage. The insurance adjuster wants me to authorize additional tear down time since they do not want to cover the entire fuel system. I have also contacted VofA since the car is still under the factory power train warranty. I am waiting to hear what will be covered. I will update with more information as it becomes available.
Other things to note.
I followed VW scheduled maintenance for the first 36,000 miles and then paid for the full 40,000 mile maintenance.
I never used any additives but was always very careful to ensure that I used diesel.
I used many different diesel providers since I do a lot of traveling
I do tend to run near empty often (which IMHO should not cause a car to fail but understand the thoughts about heat transfer now so I will avoid this practice in the future).
The last tank was from a station I use often since it is near my son's school, it has a separate diesel island so I have no reason to suspect mis-fueling and reports from the dealer so far have not indicated a fuel issue.
Right now my hope is for this to be covered and then I will debate keeping or selling.
Other things to note.
I followed VW scheduled maintenance for the first 36,000 miles and then paid for the full 40,000 mile maintenance.
I never used any additives but was always very careful to ensure that I used diesel.
I used many different diesel providers since I do a lot of traveling
I do tend to run near empty often (which IMHO should not cause a car to fail but understand the thoughts about heat transfer now so I will avoid this practice in the future).
The last tank was from a station I use often since it is near my son's school, it has a separate diesel island so I have no reason to suspect mis-fueling and reports from the dealer so far have not indicated a fuel issue.
Right now my hope is for this to be covered and then I will debate keeping or selling.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
vwmj, your failure should be covered under the power train warranty.Plus VW has been covering failures where the mileage has been over the 60k miles.
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vwmj
Member
Also I had ~185miles on the current fill up so I do not believe it to be a direct mis-fueling event since it would have likely died sooner.
vwmj
Member
I went to the dealer today and I am happy to say they were very helpful. I wish I could say the same for VWofA. VW has chosen to deny my claim due to fuel contamination. When I asked what kind of contamination they declined to answer. The dealer assisted me in obtaining a fuel sample from the fuel filter. When he opened the fuel filter I did see the contamination they were talking about. It was some fine metal particles. The fuel looks to be diesel with some fine metal particles in it. I guess VW is saying that the metal could have been introduced by the pump.
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
Metal fines are caused by the pump chewing its internals apart. Their presence does not mean the fuel started the failure process by being otherwise contaminated or sub-par. The fuel may, in fact, be ok. Metal fines come from the pump failure, they did not cause the pump failure.
Hold firm, be polite, but insist that it be covered unless they prove the fuel is the cause. In that case, contact your ins co.
Hold firm, be polite, but insist that it be covered unless they prove the fuel is the cause. In that case, contact your ins co.
truman
Top Post Dawg
I would call in the insurance company now. They might have an interest in the diagnosis, before the evidence disappears.
Elfnmagik
Veteran Member
I really don't get VW's wishy-washy stance at this point. Does the call to cover or not come from the same Dept.? With all they are facing in the investigation, having begun a trend of covering all recent failures, how/why does a non-coverage pop up?