VW TDI common rail

flappie

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Mar 12, 2002
Location
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NEWS!!! I have seen (not yet driven...
) the new Volkswage TDI - engine, With Common Rail.

The had built it in a large Transporter (LT) (it's a large Van overhere in Holland)

This probably the answer to the polution quest(?)
 

solstar

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The end of the Turbo Direct Injected (TDI) Motor and the advent of the Rail!
 

MOGolf

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2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
I'm waiting for Michael Moore to get us all the part numbers and pictures so I can piece one together here.
 

jck66

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Originally posted by solstar@ev1.net:
The end of the Turbo Direct Injected (TDI) Motor and the advent of the Rail!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are common rail and TDI mutually exclusive? I thought MB CDI engines were both.
 

John C

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Since TDI stands for Turbocharged, Direct Injection, common rail and TDI are not mutually exclusive. Common rail uses a high pressure pump to pressurize a 'rail' above the injectors, which are then operated by electric solenoids (really fast acting!)rather than by fuel pressure from the rotary pump on earlier TDIs.

This fuel system allows more flexibility in reducing noise and emissions by rate shaping the fuel delivery to the cylinders rather tahn just dumping it in when a pre-determined pressure is attained. An example is called pre-injection, which shoots a small amount of fuel into the cylinder to light the fire before the main charge is injected. This reduces the 'Diesel knock' common to most Diesels at idle, for instance.

It also has future capabilities in emissions lowering scenarios, of which I'm not allowed to discuss! Suffice to say, 2007 is not an impossible hurdle for Diesels!
 

TDIMeister

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I was not aware that VW has gone common-rail?
I thought they were pretty steadfast on Pumpe-düse?
 

flappie

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According to me TDI stands for Turbo Diesel Intercooler ( also accoriding a german brochure???) Because evry Diesel is injected!

So SDI stands for Sauger (to suck in german) Diesel Intercooler......
 

Dutch

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I don't think a SDI has an intercooler. I think it doesn't need one as the air doesn't get hot due to the turbo.
 

MUNICH_DIESEL

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TDI = turbo direct-injection
SDI = "sucker" direct-injection

the new european engines with 100/130/150 hp have the add "PD" which stands for "pumpe duese" (pump nozzle)

the Benz-CDI's technology is different (and makeable for gas engines as well, the Japanese already released some GDI-cars = gas direct injection, and a new mercedes 2.0 L CGI = common rail gas injection has been released)
 

PackRat

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Originally posted by flappie:
According to me TDI stands for Turbo Diesel Intercooler ( also accoriding a german brochure???) Because evry Diesel is injected!

So SDI stands for Sauger (to suck in german) Diesel Intercooler......
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wodered what the S in SDI stood for.
 

think diesel

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Flappie:

1) TDI stands for Turbo Direct Injection
2) SDI's do not have turbos or intercoolers

I am 150% sure of both of those facts.
Whatever you are reading is a misprint or you have misunderstood it. Sorry.
 

think diesel

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Location
Northern Virginia
FYI: Volkswagen uses pumpe-düse on it's smaller TDI engines, like the 1.4 liter 3 cylinder and 1.9 liter.

The larger engines such as the 3.3 V8 TDI in the Audi A8 and the V10 5.0 liter TDI mack daddy engine are COMMON RAIL, not pumpe-düse. I am not sure if this is for engineering reasons or what, but that is the way it is. Common rail VW/Audi TDI engines ALREADY exist and are on the road. It sounds like the news here is that they are replacing the 102(?) hp 2.5 liter TDI Transporter engine with a more powerful common-rail unit (the current motor uses rotary injection like our the quaint 90 hp antiques we still get here in the U.S.


I am not sure if there is a pumpe-düse TDI V6 yet. I beleive the 2.5 liter 180 hp V6 TDI is using the older rotary pump design, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone across the world there know?
 

flappie

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Location
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I'm sorry guys, according to a german brochure TDI stands for
T= Turbo
D = Disel
I = Intercooler
and
S = Sauger
D= Diesel
I = Intercooler
and according to ETKA a SDI also has a intercooler and a low pressure turbo to suck the air throw the intercooler...
 

flappie

Member
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Mar 12, 2002
Location
The Netherlands
I have spoken with the local VW dealer, The common-rail TDI engine is only going to be put in a LT (Larg Transporter) (Big Van overhere in europe) They do this to see what is better PD or Common Rail...)
 

PTC

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Originally posted by think diesel:
FYI: Volkswagen uses pumpe-düse on it's smaller TDI engines, like the 1.4 liter 3 cylinder and 1.9 liter.

The larger engines such as the 3.3 V8 TDI in the Audi A8 and the V10 5.0 liter TDI mack daddy engine are COMMON RAIL, not pumpe-düse. I am not sure if this is for engineering reasons or what, but that is the way it is. Common rail VW/Audi TDI engines ALREADY exist and are on the road. It sounds like the news here is that they are replacing the 102(?) hp 2.5 liter TDI Transporter engine with a more powerful common-rail unit (the current motor uses rotary injection like our the quaint 90 hp antiques we still get here in the U.S.


I am not sure if there is a pumpe-düse TDI V6 yet. I beleive the 2.5 liter 180 hp V6 TDI is using the older rotary pump design, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone across the world there know?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting, I think I've read somewhere that V10 is a PD.

EDIT: Yes, V6 180 hp is a rotary Bosch pump (059 130 106 E), and the place where you can read that V10 is a PD is Volkswagen Technik Kompetenz, go to www.volkswagen.de, select Kompetenz from one of the menus and then click on the V10 TDI on the left.

[ May 20, 2002, 04:27: Message edited by: PTC ]
 

PTC

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To get back to the topic:
the new engine in LT is a 2.8 L commonrail TDI engine with engine code AUH, power output of 116 kW (158 HP) @ 3500 rpm and 331 NM (244 lbs-ft) of torque @ 1800-3000 rpm. And the interesting thing is 4 cylinders!
 

arktiaxs

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Belgium - Vlaams Brabant
Originally posted by PTC:
[Q]the new engine in LT is a 2.8 L commonrail TDI engine with engine code AUH, power output of 116 kW (158 HP) @ 3500 rpm and 331 NM (244 lbs-ft) of torque @ 1800-3000 rpm. And the interesting thing is 4 cylinders![/Q]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LT is in fact a mercedes sprinter redesigned by VW.
It is not a genuine VW and is propulsed by a common rail made by Mercedes.


But off course you all knew that..

Mystery solved
 

PTC

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Originally posted by arktiaxs:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by PTC:
[Q]the new engine in LT is a 2.8 L commonrail TDI engine with engine code AUH, power output of 116 kW (158 HP) @ 3500 rpm and 331 NM (244 lbs-ft) of torque @ 1800-3000 rpm. And the interesting thing is 4 cylinders![/Q]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LT is in fact a mercedes sprinter redesigned by VW.
It is not a genuine VW and is propulsed by a common rail made by Mercedes.


But off course you all knew that..

Mystery solved
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you sure about MB making THAT engine for VW? It seems VW has had a history of 2.8 L 4 cylinder diesels, and I couldn't find such engine on the MB's site. Do you have some links?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yeah, it sure looks like a Sprinter, and that engine doesn't look like anything Volkswagen. I liked the old LTs more, looked like a big Vanagon.
 

christi

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Originally posted by think diesel:
FYI: Volkswagen uses pumpe-düse on it's smaller TDI engines, like the 1.4 liter 3 cylinder and 1.9 liter.

The larger engines such as the 3.3 V8 TDI in the Audi A8 and the V10 5.0 liter TDI mack daddy engine are COMMON RAIL, not pumpe-düse. I am not sure if this is for engineering reasons or what, but that is the way it is. Common rail VW/Audi TDI engines ALREADY exist and are on the road. It sounds like the news here is that they are replacing the 102(?) hp 2.5 liter TDI Transporter engine with a more powerful common-rail unit (the current motor uses rotary injection like our the quaint 90 hp antiques we still get here in the U.S.


I am not sure if there is a pumpe-düse TDI V6 yet. I beleive the 2.5 liter 180 hp V6 TDI is using the older rotary pump design, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone across the world there know?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am pretty sure (but not certain) that the V6 TDI is now common rail.

My understanding is that Pumpe Duse is the most powerful system that exists, but that common rail engines are more refined.

My guess is that with the large V6/V8 diesel engines that they are powerful enough with common rail, and that in a large Audi refinement is what is wanted. On the other hand in a four cyl Golf refinement might not be so important as power.

The perception in the UK appears to be that the PD Golfs are noisy, but they are so damned fast that people don't care about the noise. I can see why the same argument wouldn't wash in an Audi A8 Limo.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Exactly Christi.

The new V-6 IS Common Rail, no longer the Bosch VE-44 rotary pump.

In fact, there is NO rotary pump on any VW TDI diesel HSDI passenger car engine except the lowest form of TDI that they ship to North America, all other TDIs are Pump Duse( 3-4 cylinders) or Common Rail 6-8-10 cylinders).

The absolute lowest form of VW TDI made is the one sold in Canada and USA since our dirty diesel fuel supply is such poor quality


SUX doesn't it????


[ May 21, 2002, 05:53: Message edited by: SkyPup ]
 

Willy den CGI

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Be patient and full of hope.
Today a demonstration will take place to show how clean the new diesels are.

"DIESELS COMING CLEAN IN D.C.

Believe it or not, U.S. auto executives will be in Washington, D.C., today to extol the benefits of diesels as a cleaner, greener automotive engine. Diesels? Well, yes. Automakers are pitching the diesel engine as a way to improve fuel economy and reduce carbon dioxide emissions. And today they’ re planning a “clean diesel drive” to show members of Congress, their staffs and rule-making bureaucrats that the engines have come a long way since the late 1970s and early 1980s, when they were last made in large numbers in the United States. Find out more on the PR play today inside


Read more at

TCC
 

think diesel

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Northern Virginia
I don't think our TDI's are too bad.

It could be worse, Skypup, we could get only 68 horsepower SDI's here or worse, we could very easily not have any diesel cars at all.

I am grateful for what we do have and excited for the future. I hope this push by the auto industry to get some more diesel power here in the U.S. leads somewhere. Something tells me that it isn't only our "dirty" fuel that is standing in the way of diesel nirvana. There are more hurdles than that to overcome.
 

christi

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So, why exactly will a common rail engine not run on current US fuel?

I thought that the problem with sulphur is de-NOx cats.

I can't see how that would make a common rail engine any less viable than a rotary pump engine.

okay it might have to be a low state of tune, just as the current NA TDI is.

After all, Mercedes don't seem to have any problems with people putting US grade diesel in the Sprinter vans.
 

PTC

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The V6 TDI used in Audi A4, A6 and A8 with 132kW / 180 HP with engine code AKE is NOT common rail. It uses normal Einspritzpumpe like 90hp 1.9l TDI, and not Hochdruckpumpe like 3.3L V8 TDI in Audi A8.
The injection pump p/n is 059 130 106 E, and injectors p/n is 059 130 201 D for 5 cylinders, and 059 130 202 E for 3rd cylinder.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
However, AUDI has just stopped the VE44 rotary distribution pump on the new Audi V-6 and it is NOW COMMON RAIL. The only rotary distributor pump on VW HSDI passenger car engine is the one imported into the US & Canada for the ALH 90HP engine. Everything else for passenger cars is PD or Common Rail, depending on the number of cylinders.

It doesn't matter what kind of diesel engine you have or what kind of injection system it has in it, unless it is an unregulated garbage truck diesel engine, NO HSDI passenger car in the entire world will be running on the CRAPPY USA DIESEL FUEL, including the current lowest form of VW TDI 90HP that we now have with the VE 37 rotary injection pump. NONE OF THEM MEET EMISSION REGS on our rotgut lowlife diesel fuel in spite of what anyones opinions are.


US diesel fuel SUX bigtime!


Do you get that -> NO HSDI passenger car engine in the world will be legal on our crap US diesel fuel with LOW CETANE, HIGH AROMATICS, AND HIGH SULFUR. (period)

[ May 22, 2002, 05:05: Message edited by: SkyPup ]
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
BTW, the new AUDI V-6 with common rail is not the 180HP of the discountinued VE-44 rotary distributor pump engine, instead it is NOW 220HP!


And remember, the ONLY thing keeping this engine and all the other excellent HSDI passenger car diesel engines in Europe ILLEGAL everywhere in North America is the CRAPPY North American LOWLIFE ROTGUT CRUD DIESEL FUEL.


Understand?
 

think diesel

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I am not so sure I buy all the hype about fuel anymore. I beleive our fuel is below the european standards and I'd even believe it is A factor keeping some of these überdiesels out of this country but it is clearly not THE factor. Not the only factor.

I think the poor quality of the fuel here is overexaggerated. The 2.7 CDI in the Sprinter is the SAME engine they'd put in the C and E class. It must run OK on American fuel because IT'S HERE, What about Ford Powerstroke, that uses a HEUI system very similar to pumpe-düse I beleive and those run on American fuel as well.

One more question, that NEVER seems to get answered.

Skypup is loaded. Why the flying F***K doesn't he just import whatever diesel he wants through a registered importer and get it certified and have a 1000 gallon tank of the best diesel he can get on his ranch?

That's what I would do.

Maybe it's more fun for him to complain about how sh1tty and hopeless everything is?


So how about answering my question SP?
 

jorpet

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Ever looked at the emissions spewing from garbage trucks and other big rigs? They are allowed those huge emissions that passenger cars are not. Those big powerful diesels in Europe would not pass US pollution standards due to the poor fuel over here.

The issue isn't that they won't run on our diesel, though they wouldn't run as well, it is that they would not be as clean as they are in Europe. With our min 40 cetane fuel, the precise shaping of the burn within the cylinder just is not possible. Only when cetane is above 50 can the engine perform as cleanly as it is designed too.

Then there are the aromatics and sulphur in the fuel that simply adds more pollution to an already bad situation. Next time you see the neighborhood garbage truck belch a huge black cloud into the sky you should think to yourself, "If he was running ULSD that cloud would be only 10% of what I see now". Until that day, diesels will not be welcomed on our shores.
 
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