Plugging in frost heater with no power plug in?

I have an anti gravity brand jump starter. The xp-10. It’s badass.

https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/products/micro-starts/xp-10/


Anyways. At work it’s cold and snowy in the mornings. And we got no power plug ins. So. Can I plug my frost heater into the xp10 jump pack, with a timer, set off to run for 2-3 hours before I get off work? Then recharge the jump pack over night every time?

Would this work or is it a bad idea?

Thoughts: after sitting and cooling/freezing for 8 hours, the car needs more than 2 hours of frost heater time? And 2: the xp10 May not have enough juice (18,000 mah) to run the frost heater for a significant amount of time?

Or, it lights my car on fire in the parking lot while unattended as well as the surrounding bmws and Tesla’s too.

Or someone steals my $300 jumper pack

I highly suspect you cant do what you want and you need a marine duty battery of about 100amp hours.


a few things to consider before you try anything

The Amp hours rated on the internal battery of the jumper pack, the BTU capacity of the frost heater, the thermal efficiency of the battery at those temps, and the temp difference you need to achieve.

So this is just an example and in no way reflects REAL math or anything you might actually be able to do because i dont know the numbers you have or the data but this is how you would figure it out. I'm using simple numbers here.

Lets say that the frost heater you have pulls 5 amps (600 watts) and can raise the temperature of 2 gallons of coolant by 2 Degrees every hour.

Lets also say that your charge pack has a battery in it, it probably does not and might run on just a capacitor bank, in this case, you cant do what you want. But lets assume its just a battery. Im going to just say that the jumper pack has a 5amp hour battery rated at the equivalence of 500 CCA as its a capacitor bank as well. you can start to see the math here is making it obvious that a jumper pack cant handle that load.

NOW you can get a 100 amp our marine duty battery for about $100 on amazon.
100 amp hours rated at 30*F min (there not really rated in CCA)
With a battery like then you can run a 600 watt heater for 9 hours MAX. you never want to run the battery down past 40% if you want it to last as long as you cant. 60% is pushing it, thats why i say 9 hours not 20 hours.
(9 hours only gets you say 18*F above starting temp at a rating of 2*F/hour.)

SO find the rating in watts of the heater element, and a few other things and do the math.

SO now that im able to look your stuff up

The charger pack you have is rated at 18,000 mAh
1000 mAh = 1 Ah
THUS your pack as a theroretical 18 amp hours. thats it. Thats actually fairly impressive for a jump pack. this product looks awesome.
BUT this means you will have at most 9 hours per amp draw of the heater if you want to keep your battery healthy and get its max life out of it. Never draw a battery like that down past 50%
According to http://www.frostheater.com/ The frost heater draws 1,000 watts.
Power (watts) is volts times amps so we divide the watts (1,000) by the volts (120) and we get 8.33 amps and then we divide the 9 hours by the 8.33 amps and you get a whopping 1.08 hours. If you want to abuse and cut the life of your jumper pack into 1/4 its life span then you still only get 2 hours of warm time. It might be enough but you paid what, $200 for this thing?

Buy a 100 Amp Hour battery on amazon

Or it would be better to look at something like a Webasto heater that runs off of fuel and a small amount of juice for startup / circulation.


https://www.webasto.com/us/markets-products/light-duty-vehicles/heating-systems/


I did not check if they have one that fits our cars.


Also check into Espar heaters


https://www.eberspacher.com/products/fuel-operated-heaters/water-heating.html

scooperhsd said:

I did not check if they have one that fits our cars.

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they are universal
do not buy the used ones on ebay unless you're fine with also buying the diagnostic scanner for it and replacing half the rotted out parts

running an electric heater from your battery is really not an ideal solution
your 1000w heater (call it 1200w for ease of calculations) draws 10ish amps at 110, that means 100A at 12v, not even taking into account inefficiency of the inverter (make a 12v coolant heater box out of a bunch of cheap glow plugs, then you aren't losing heat to the air from the inverter's inefficiency)

100 amps is one honkin load for a battery
a tesla battery might sustainably do it for an hour, maybe. A handheld jump pack just doesn't have the mass to do it for an hour at a time. Group 31 lead acid would probably do it, but that's a 60lb battery you're carting around twice a day.

Just get a $200 8ga extension cord.

When I'm at Lowes Depot kind of stores, I generally look at things like outdoor extension cords, and I've never seen one THAT large (8 awg). I HAVE seen 10 and 12 AWG ones, however.

Mongler98 said:

The charger pack you have is rated at 18,000 mAh

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Also worth noting that this is an *extremely* optimistic marketing rating, and very likely based on a quick pulse to turn over an engine as opposed to an overnight sustained draw.

TL;DR: no where near enough energy in a lithium battery that small to run a 1000W heater for any useful length of time.

If that was the case Teslas would run forever on the battery that forms the entire floor of the car.

Buy a small 1500 watt generator.

jettawreck said:

Buy a small 1500 watt generator.

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Might want something more like 2000 / 2500 watts - using only half, will get max runtime from it. Should be an inverter type generator for this use.


That's assuming it doesn't get stolen ....

or just a piece of wire that is long and thick
much easier than pull starting a generator every morning at 30 below before the coffee machine's done doing its thing

[486] said:

running an electric heater from your battery is really not an ideal solution
your 1000w heater (call it 1200w for ease of calculations) draws 10ish amps at 110, that means 100A at 12v, not even taking into account inefficiency of the inverter (make a 12v coolant heater box out of a bunch of cheap glow plugs, then you aren't losing heat to the air from the inverter's inefficiency)
100 amps is one honkin load for a battery

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1000 watt heater is NOT 10 amps at 120v, its 8.3 amps and even at 110v its still 9 amps. You dont add inefficiency of an inverter until after you calculate for amp hours.

Its not 100 amps being pulled. I run a 14 amp draw on my minkota trolling motor on a 100 amp hour marine battery. i get a full 4 hours of 100% load run time on it and it lasts about 8 years of use by not bringing it down past 50% of its charge or no less than 11.4-11.6 volts.
Now lets add 15% inefficacy of a really cheep crap linear nonsin wave inverter. you add 15% to the amp hour rating not the amp draw. So were at 8.33x1.15 is 9.57 or non ideally 110v that the inverter will push so your bumping up to 10.5amp hour draw.
a marine closed cell 100 amp hour battery and a $50 inverter will do just fine and let OP run his set up for about 4 hours EASILY and with a charger from the alternator with a 6 amp limiter resistor regulator OP should be able to recharge his marine battery with a few hours of driving or just by plunging it in at home on a quality tender. you need to use a sinwave format tender charger for AGM batteries, NOT a cheep charger by any means, your looking at 100 for the battery, $5 for some wires $50 for an inverter and $150 for a quality 7 amp charger tender.
forget the 100 amps at 12 volts, it does NOTHING for the calculation as the inverter does all you need.
FAR cheaper than a fuel operated warmer. no need for exhaust, fuel lines, ect.

hmm. ok. I didnt think that idea would work but worth a try.


a webasto would be super cool!!! those are like $1500 installed though. and I need a timing belt very soon ($1000), and a new clutch ($500) ish... so thats a lot of money into a $3000 car!!! maybe I just gotta deal with cold starts and scraping the windshield. even though it sounds like rocks in a pop can on the cold mornings.. its got 300,000 km so far and still chugging along.



almost sounds like the big marine battery is the way to go. just to be clear, this fits under my hood in the stock battery box? AND will run the frostheater on its own. so I plug the frostheater into my own battery under the hood basically? then self charge with the alternator? so basically "Free" power/heat?? almost might be something to consider to fight these cold winters the best I can.

fouillard13 said:

just to be clear, this fits under my hood in the stock battery box? AND will run the frostheater on its own. so I plug the frostheater into my own battery under the hood basically? then self charge with the alternator? so basically "Free" power/heat?? almost might be something to consider to fight these cold winters the best I can.

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No, no, and, most likely, no.

You'd need a huge battery to run a 1000W heater all night... much bigger than would fit in the standard battery box.

You'd need a good-sized inverter as well... the battery is 12V DC and the heater takes 110V AC. Can't plug the heater directly into the battery.

At the end of the night your huge battery would be very discharged and would need to be connected to a proper battery charger to recharge it... your alternator is good at topping up a battery but not designed to routinely bring a nearly-dead battery back to life... plus it would take hours of run time to do so.

There really is no easy answer here... and certainly no easy 12V portable answer. Hence why everyone plugs their car... or in rare cases invests in something that can burn fuel as the source of heat.

Vince Waldon said:

No, no, and, most likely, no.

You'd need a huge battery to run a 1000W heater all night... much bigger than would fit in the standard battery box.

You'd need a good-sized inverter as well... the battery is 12V DC and the heater takes 110V AC. Can't plug the heater directly into the battery.

At the end of the night your huge battery would be very discharged and would need to be connected to a proper battery charger to recharge it... your alternator is good at topping up a battery but not designed to routinely bring a nearly-dead battery back to life... plus it would take hours of run time to do so.

There really is no easy answer here... and certainly no easy 12V portable answer. Hence why everyone plugs their car... or in rare cases invests in something that can burn fuel as the source of heat.

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+1 .
Do it right or not at all. The webasto type solution or a standalone generator for your frost heater. If work actually provided AC power for you to plug in - that would be best and easiest.

fouillard13 said:

almost sounds like the big marine battery is the way to go. just to be clear, this fits under my hood in the stock battery box? AND will run the frostheater on its own. so I plug the frostheater into my own battery under the hood basically? then self charge with the alternator? so basically "Free" power/heat?? almost might be something to consider to fight these cold winters the best I can.

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NO, AGM batteries are not for use in cars, you will trash the hell out of the battery if you do.
This is going to be a rear in the trunk area mounted deal. The more i think about it, dont even bother with the cars electrical system in any way, leave it independent. The wave format from an alternator is NOT sinwave, it is linear pulse, this will trash an AGM in no time at all. charge it up when you get home

another though is to do what cummins does on there engines. they have a heater coil on the air intake instead of glow plugs. It does run off 12v, might be a good idea but i have never seen one adapted.

OK do i did some digging aroun in some old files i have and looked this stuff up for you.
You need to know what amounts of watts will heat your car up enough for a no cold start within a few hours. SO a few things to consider. You need to know the following and i will do the math for you as im in that kinda mood.

Q=m⋅Cp⋅ΔT
Where …
m = mass of water heated
Cp= the heat capacity of water (1 BTU / lb ºF)
ΔT = temperature difference.

i wont go nuts with this but in a nut shell
*3.412 BTUs per watt
*2 gallon coolant system x 8.33 lbs/gallon

but basically you need to know this for a short cut though the BTU calculations over time

Watts = 3.1 x Gallons x ΔT (in °F) / Heat-Up Time (in hrs)
we will set this for 2 gallons and ΔT will be (-10F to 90F) so 60 degrees and say 4 hours
3.1*2*1,000*100/1 = 620 watt
I say 90 because you have a very inefficient set up IE an engine and radiator to heat up basically. So its not going to get to 90 on a cold day. but probably more like 60 as your trying to battle against the cold constantly.

the math checks out.
I would seriously put a thermostatic controller on a relay on the battery so it only runs warm enough for a longer time at work or have it on a timer with a voltage reader so that you cant go under 11.4 volts on the AGM battery.

Mongler98 said:

another though is to do what cummins does on there engines. they have a heater coil on the air intake instead of glow plugs. It does run off 12v, might be a good idea but i have never seen one adapted.

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you mean to get cabin heat?
climatronic mk5 and later cars have an electric heater matrix in them you could scrounge from the junkyard

if you mean using it for starting... Just fix the problems with the engine rather than bandaiding it. They only use the grid heater because they don't have holes in their heads for glowplugs

[486] said:

you mean to get cabin heat?
climatronic mk5 and later cars have an electric heater matrix in them you could scrounge from the junkyard
if you mean using it for starting... Just fix the problems with the engine rather than bandaiding it. They only use the grid heater because they don't have holes in their heads for glowplugs

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NO, cummins use a heater grid on top of the intake manifold between the boot and the intake after the intercooler.
it makes supper hot air vs a glow plug for cold starting.

Mongler - check your math : -10F to +90F is 100F, not 60.
If you're saying delta T is 60, then your end temp would be 50F.


And really - if the car is up to snuff, at -30C, he shouldn't need the extra heat. It will be a little rough running at first, but it should start.

Agree with doing it right. You would be the only one I know of attempting to run a 1000 watt heater with a battery and it honestly would look foolish with a generator hanging off the back of the car. If you can't get 110 plug in juice near the car get the webasto one or deal with the cold starts. Vw didn't think they needed one from the factory in cold climates and they almost always do start. If they don't it is more likely a battery or start issue then anything else so make sure they are up to the task along with glow plugs.

Don't risk Jimmy rigging it and burn your car down from wires over heating or shorting.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

scooperhsd said:

Mongler - check your math : -10F to +90F is 100F, not 60.
If you're saying delta T is 60, then your end temp would be 50F.


And really - if the car is up to snuff, at -30C, he shouldn't need the extra heat. It will be a little rough running at first, but it should start.

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WHAT? -20. -10, 0, 10, 20, 30 (freezing point of water), 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90.
read what i said,
I say 90 because you have a very inefficient set up IE an engine and radiator to heat up basically. So its not going to get to 90 on a cold day. but probably more like 60 as your trying to battle against the cold constantly.
Sorry if it was confusing for you.
I really should have said that target temp would be 60F for a -20 morning with 90 as the vector for your Delta T. As in the cold air is going to take that down a big bit. These calculations are for water heaters that are insulated too and assume a 95% efficiency min. were probably working with a 70% at best here.
I can attest to this personally with a few heater projects in cars and in other things (cant say patent pending). that unless you have an insulated area you have a big amount of heat shed and that in my car applications i always take about 30*F off the top end target number.
yea if the car is up to par, a -20 morning is not that hard but its still a hard start.
The only real way of protecting you car is fresh oil, and a oil pan heater, the water heater is great for a warm car to get into but lets face it, we all want the best of our worlds.

Point is that the frost heaters work well and draw half the amps that they need to if you controlled its power and is not difficult to run externally.

coalminer16 said:

Agree with doing it right. You would be the only one I know of attempting to run a 1000 watt heater with a battery and it honestly would look foolish with a generator hanging off the back of the car. If you can't get 110 plug in juice near the car get the webasto one or deal with the cold starts. Vw didn't think they needed one from the factory in cold climates and they almost always do start. If they don't it is more likely a battery or start issue then anything else so make sure they are up to the task along with glow plugs.

Don't risk Jimmy rigging it and burn your car down from wires over heating or shorting.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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thats what a fuse is for.

i have ran many cars on oil pan heaters with less and dumbed down the amps. its not hard, just cause you didnt hear of it, does not mean thousands are doing it in Russia all the fin time.

Mongler98 said:

NO, cummins use a heater grid on top of the intake manifold between the boot and the intake after the intercooler.
it makes supper hot air vs a glow plug for cold starting.

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I'm aware of where they live
they're just a poor bandaid for an engine that has no provision for glow plugs
MDTs didn't have them, know why? because some white smoke and long crank times was expected. Heck, a 37mt will turn over an 8.3 C series for a solid 3 minutes while bleeding fuel lines without getting more than pleasantly warm.

then everyone and their wife needs a brodozer to putt around in and they better start with a touch of the key and god forbid they smoke white when cold
thus gridheater bandaid

coalminer16 said:

Vw didn't think they needed one from the factory in cold climates

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fun fact, euro market chrysler TDI minivans had an option for an espar made webasto (because diesel-fired coolant heater is such a mouthful)

ah, I knew it was too good to be true and why no one else has done it that way. oh well. cold starts and scraping the window it is!!!



also cant get a remote start on my standard car either so its a tricky one!


thanks a lot guys, you are seriously the best.

fouillard13 said:

ah, I knew it was too good to be true and why no one else has done it that way. oh well. cold starts and scraping the window it is!!!

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No, you seriously can, do like i said, and use a marine battery.
You can just go with a oil pan heater that runs less amps too. The thing is that you can run any heater coil on 12v DC or 120 volts AC but they are MUCH more efficient and draw less amps on AC. its not about the volts, its about the sinwave.

fouillard13 said:

also cant get a remote start on my standard car either so its a tricky one!

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THATS ALSO NOT TRUE
there are remote starter kits for a manual transmission cars/ trucks.
it involves a combination lock like sequence to set to confirm to the ECU on the remote starter that you are indeed in neutral. I have never installed one but i know there is some info here on the forums and its been done before.

Mongler98 said:

The thing is that you can run any heater coil on 12v DC or 120 volts AC but they are MUCH more efficient and draw less amps on AC. its not about the volts, its about the sinwave. .

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a resistive heating element does not care one bit if it's ac or dc, both are 100% efficient in turning electric into heat

that you're saying it matters kind of tells the tale on your input ITT

Mongler98 said:

WHAT? -20. -10, 0, 10, 20, 30 (freezing point of water), 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90.
read what i said,
I say 90 because you have a very inefficient set up IE an engine and radiator to heat up basically. So its not going to get to 90 on a cold day. but probably more like 60 as your trying to battle against the cold constantly.
Sorry if it was confusing for you.
I really should have said that target temp would be 60F for a -20 morning with 90 as the vector for your Delta T. As in the cold air is going to take that down a big bit. These calculations are for water heaters that are insulated too and assume a 95% efficiency min. were probably working with a 70% at best here.
I can attest to this personally with a few heater projects in cars and in other things (cant say patent pending). that unless you have an insulated area you have a big amount of heat shed and that in my car applications i always take about 30*F off the top end target number.
yea if the car is up to par, a -20 morning is not that hard but its still a hard start.
The only real way of protecting you car is fresh oil, and a oil pan heater, the water heater is great for a warm car to get into but lets face it, we all want the best of our worlds.

Point is that the frost heaters work well and draw half the amps that they need to if you controlled its power and is not difficult to run externally.

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Wasn't confusing at all - you simply did not state your assumption of "only" a 60F delta T instead of 100F due to heat loss. THAT'S why your math didn't check out - as pointed out in school - show ALL your work / assumptions.

[486] said:

a resistive heating element does not care one bit if it's ac or dc, both are 100% efficient in turning electric into heat
that you're saying it matters kind of tells the tale on your input ITT

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depends on if your running 240 or 120 AC on single phase
240 must be out of phase on one side against the other.
120v AC, its just resistance but it matters on the sin wave, too many hertz or not enough will not provide enough and a linear sinwave format like most AC output from a transformer will cause too much and burn out much faster the element, thats probably the most important thing to know about that. DC, it makes no difference as its just a flat current. DC is a bit more efficient way to make heat than AC. Thats why our power lines are AC and not DC and drop into a transformer to go to homes.

it could be square wave for all it matters, there's no inductive component to a resistive element so the power factor is 1 no matter what you feed it

Dannyboy said:

I cobbled one together from parts I got sent from Germany, buy second hand one and service it. 6/10 times webasto boards are shot and require new board, other times the igniter/sensor is shot or water pump driver.
Anyway i installed one on my mk6 jetta and I can honestly say that it's awesome and beats anything short of a heated garage. Mines only on a switch for the mean time but it is worth getting a proper timer of you do so you get into a warm car. Winterpeg gets cold

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I had a Mercedes printer that had one, as a factory option, with a 7 day timer. It even turned on the fan in the passenger compartment. It was a joy to get into the Van on a 5F morning and find that it was 40F inside.