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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old April 12th, 2018, 11:00   #31
oilhammer
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Ain't that the truth!
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Old April 12th, 2018, 11:23   #32
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I don't think that will happen here. Every time it even gets mentioned, people start to go bananas. (I don't, I laugh... but I'm not driving a pig either).

In this country, we instead reward people for bad choices: case in point, Cash for Clunkers. People who bought a pig, that lost value quickly, and didn't take care of it, got a nice cash payout. People like me, who bought an efficient car that held its value and took care of it... got nothing beyond what I granted myself for making a wise choice in the first place. And my tax dollars went to pay for the idiots who made poor decisions.
I looked at the cash for clunkers deals. There was not a vehicle out there that got high enough mileage to replace any of the cars I had at that time. Without really trying, I had found myself in that magic land of decent fuel economy on everything in the drive. I think we were a four car family at the time too.

The only way to get people to give up their monster vehicles is fuel prices. When it costs over $100 a week to fill it up, many people are going to figure out they can't afford the beast and food at the same time.

Tax increases will only work if there is a transparent system where we are told where each cent collected is going. People may be willing to pay more if they know what it is being used for. When we lived in Wisconsin, they published where are the property taxes were going. Made it easier to pay when you knew that 55 cents (just a number off the top of my head) of every dollar was going to the local schools. I have no idea where any of my taxes now are going.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 13:34   #33
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So, I'd love to see a comparison of similar size and weight from current to 1970's or so . . . I don't think the gains will be what a lot of folks think they are.
I have one for you.

I learned to drive in a 1978 Honda Civic CVCC.

1.5 litre (optional engine), 5 speed manual, no catalyst, Honda's fancy CVCC system - which ended up carboning up and causing massive driveability problems. This car weighed about 800 kg; this had already been increased over the standard Civic because of the impact absorbing bumpers, and the bigger-engine models had a longer nose. The only thing electronic in that car was the radio. You had to fiddle with the breaker points every 8000 km and once in a while you had to replace the points and condenser.

Fuel consumption was about 6 litres per 100 km. It could be coaxed (reasonably, without hypermiling) to around 5.5 litres per 100 km.

When I exited from driving VW diesels, I split the motorcycle hauling and daily driving tasks. I don't need a big car for work, a small one is better for finding parking spots. So, I returned to my roots as far as the daily driver is concerned.

The daily driver is a 2015 Fiat 500, 5 speed manual, 1.4 non-turbo. It is roughly the same size on the outside as the Civic was. The back seat is even more useless than what I remember of the Civic - but the 500 sacrifices some practicality for styling; to be honest if I could have bought a Panda instead (same platform and about the same size but 4 doors and a more squared-off roofline) I probably would have.

The Fiat weighs about 1100 kg - still a lightweight by today's standards but well above what the Civic weighed. The Fiat has a little over 100 hp, the Honda had 63. The Fiat's high-tech engine feature is the MultiAir variable valve timing and lift system. Fuel consumption in day-to-day driving is 5.5 - 6.0 L/100 km ... right where the Civic was.

In every other way, they are worlds apart. The Fiat meets today's safety standards. If you were in a crash in the Honda, heaven help, because you were on your own. The Fiat has ABS and stability control and 4 wheel disk brakes. The Honda ... didn't. The Fiat has air-con, the Honda didn't. The Fiat has automatic climate control, heated seats, height-adjustable seats, cruise control, in-car entertainment with bluetooth and the like. The Honda had an AM radio.

The Civic was ready for the scrap heap with 180,000 km on it. Too early to tell with the Fiat ... it has 75,000 km on it, and runs like new.

So in the same size car, the fuel consumption has stayed the same even though the weight has gone up and performance has gotten better and they have gained a lot of comfort and convenience features. I know Fiat paid attention in the wind tunnel. I doubt if the Honda ever saw a wind tunnel when that car was designed in the early 1970s.

The other vehicle in the driveway is also a Fiat-derived product ... a ProMaster van. Compare that to my friend Al's 1983 Dodge Ram van back in the day. The ProMaster has a 280hp Pentastar V6. The old van had a slant six with a single barrel carb. The new one has way more interior space. Comfort ... way better. Safety ... way better. The van uses 11 - 12 L/100 km in mostly-rural driving, which I really can't complain about. We just towed a trailer with it, 2 bikes in the van and 2 more in an enclosed trailer, and it used 13-ish while towing ... which I can't complain about. The old van would use more than that without anything in it.

The USA's collective fuel consumption problem is because people want to drive lifted 4x4 pickup trucks to transport themselves back and forth to work and to the grocery store ...

It has not helped that the Civic has become a big-ish car. The Accord is comparatively huge. My dad had a 1983 Accord which did fine with a 1.6 litre engine.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 17:46   #34
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The cars I learned to drive were a 67 Plymouth Belvedere II and a 72 Dodge Charger. Both with 318 V8s. Both got maybe 20 on the highway at 55. Around town, I doubt they broke double digits. Lots of fun to drive as a teen aged boy, especially since neither had any weight at all in the rear. We crammed six people in both those two door cars quite often. Dad even pulled a pop up trailer with the Charger. I don’t think either one would fit in my garage today.

I’ve owned my share of gas guzzling V8 and efficient 4 cylinders before the VW diesels. My Ram Ecodiesel is the first V6 that I’ve owned. It gets better mileage than the GMC Canyon with a 4 cylinder that it replaced.
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Old April 19th, 2018, 09:04   #35
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And as we discuss big, gas guzzling, SUVs vs TDI mileage, and complain about why the TDIs are banned for being dirty, TN is trying to remove emissions testing. Argument is that air quality meets EPA guidelines so we don't need the emissions tests. That and it puts an unfair burden on people with limited income to fix their cars so they pass emissions tests.

I call BS! Just gives people an excuse to not maintain their cars beyond minimum to drive to work and the mini mart to buy smokes/beer. I predict a lot more gross polluters from this.

Here is a link to one of the stories about it. Here is another link. It appears the bill has passed the houses and on its way to the governer.

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Old April 19th, 2018, 18:29   #36
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I dunno . . . in a lot of states, testing is nothing more than another tax by a different name. The lightest touch that gets the desired result is typically the best . . .
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Old April 20th, 2018, 03:57   #37
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The air quality has always followed weather patterns here, not the cars, yet we still have emissions (OBD) testing. I am not sure what to think. If people just take care of their cars, it is generally a non-issue. However, in some cases it can become pretty expensive... even on a "newer" (maybe even especially) car, in some cases that isn't even paid off.

They are also working now on getting rid of our safety inspections, and THOSE I am an absolute advocate for. Because nobody's car flew apart and flung them into oncoming traffic if the MIL came on... but if your neglected ball joint flies out of its socket at 65 MPH....

The safety inspection is often the ONLY time anyone who actually knows cars ever takes a look at some of them. And it is cheap, too. If I could pay a dentist only $12 every two years to look in my mouth, I'd jump on it.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 07:22   #38
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NC has emission testing for gassers in the heavily populated counties. The first few years for a new car are exempt from the testing. They did away with the stickers several years ago but still charge the $ sticker fee. The is no emission test for the diesels but we still have to have pass the safety piece. IIRC, the safety check is $16.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 18:50   #39
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NC has emission testing for gassers in the heavily populated counties. The first few years for a new car are exempt from the testing. They did away with the stickers several years ago but still charge the $ sticker fee. The is no emission test for the diesels but we still have to have pass the safety piece. IIRC, the safety check is $16.
Same here in Texas. Diesels and gas vehicles over 24 years old are exempt from emissions testing, just the safety inspection which is $14.50 here.

I have an 02 Dodge Ram 5.9L diesel pickup which is only used for hauling and emergency use in case my main daily driver is down. I have my 02 Jetta wagon TDI, an '85 Chevy Celebrity Eurosport, an 84 Olds Cutlass Ciera Diesel (V6 version, not the failed past GM versions) and my wife drives her 05 Infiniti G35. With her car being the exception, all of my cars are emission exempt.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 04:00   #40
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We test diesels here 1997+ below 8500 GVWR (so all TDIs except the '96 Passat, which was not OBD2).

Same OBD test essentially as the 1996+ gas engines below 8500 GVWR. MIL operational but not commanded on, no DTCs, readiness set.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 07:35   #41
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Since we don't have emissions tests on the diesels, a check engine light isn't even noticed. I know the beetle had the check engine light on for several years and still passed the safety inspection.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 10:42   #42
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We have people from neighboring counties come in with MIL, flashing, car stinks like rotten eggs and barely runs enough to get in the shop door (there is a decent slope) "No, just put on the wiper blades and do the recall. It runs fine."

These are the people I'm talking about.

And I have been vocal about a general rule about people - we all pay the expense because the few are lazy. If everyone actually fixed their cars and kept running and safe, then there would be no reason for emissions or safety testing.

Jason
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 11:33   #43
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My eco-groupie sprogs insist that their 4700-pound crossover/SUVs be hybrids so they can save the planet. Less space and poorer fuel economy than my '90s Montero. Which they borrow to haul bulky stuff.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 15:17   #44
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My eco-groupie sprogs insist that their 4700-pound crossover/SUVs be hybrids so they can save the planet. Less space and poorer fuel economy than my '90s Montero. Which they borrow to haul bulky stuff.
The first time (late 2007) that gas prices hit $3.99/gal I traded in my beloved '97
Expedition for a 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid.
With that move I went from 14 mpg to 28 mpg. It now has over 200k miles on it.

There are times that I miss that Expedition but the money saved over the years
made it easier to buy a '65 Mustang... yup, 289.
Just in time for 91 octane at $3.99!
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Old April 24th, 2018, 10:25   #45
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I sold my 1999 BMW330ic for a 2004 diesel Excursion and was very happy. The Excursion had over 300k miles and ran and looked like new. Ran about 21 mpg unless towing. Still beat the BMW and premium.
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