350-400 hp build for pulling tractor?

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
A little more engine engineering for those interested. It's no big surprise that a 3.9 L 4BT develops rated power at "only" 2400 RPM (9.52 m/s mean piston speed) and the 1.9 TDI at 3750 RPM (14.875 m/s), but do you really know why? There are many factors why these two engines develop their rated powers at RPMs that they do, but many parameters scale with the very important mean piston speed (MPS, eg. in-cylinder turbulence, swirl intensity, port flow velocities, etc.). We could take the analysis further. The upper limits of MPS - high-20s m/s in F1/Cup engines, into the 30s m/s for Top Fuel drag racers, are dictated primarily by tribological considerations (maintaining an oil film in the piston ring-cylinder interface) and tensile mass forces taken up by the pistons and connecting rods.

If we set a criterion to limit kinetic energy in the reciprocating group to be roughly constant, which would translate to strain energies that the rods have to take, then the disparities of MPS between say a 4BT and an ALH TDI almost disappears.

Kinetic energy is proportional to the mass times velocity squared.

Mass is proportional to the cube of a characteristic dimension, I'll use bore diameter d here.

So, the kinetic energy is related to d^3*MPS^2.

With the criterion of constant kinetic energy, there results a relationship of bore diameter vs MPS as
MPS is proportional to d^(3/2).

Now let's plug in some numbers:
TDI bore: 79.5mm
4BT: 102mm

Taking the TDI as a baseline with MPS = 14.875 m/s,

14.875 *(79.5/102)^(3/2)=10.23 m/s, which is pretty close to the value of the 4BT's MPS at rated power. The remaining difference can be attributed to the 4BT being designed for heavier duty durability than a TDI.

The take home message here is also that it is not realistic to have a 4BT rev to the same RPM as a TDI, but one can go further to say that it is comparing apples to oranges even to match MPS. Rather, there is a physics-based rationale to relate and scale MPS between engines of different sizes using energetic or mechanical strength criteria.
 

mk3pd

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Location
Norway
TDI
Passat Quattro :)
A little more engine engineering for those interested. It's no big surprise that a 3.9 L 4BT develops rated power at "only" 2400 RPM (9.52 m/s mean piston speed) and the 1.9 TDI at 3750 RPM (14.875 m/s), but do you really know why? There are many factors why these two engines develop their rated powers at RPMs that they do, but many parameters scale with the very important mean piston speed (MPS, eg. in-cylinder turbulence, swirl intensity, port flow velocities, etc.). We could take the analysis further. The upper limits of MPS - high-20s m/s in F1/Cup engines, into the 30s m/s for Top Fuel drag racers, are dictated primarily by tribological considerations (maintaining an oil film in the piston ring-cylinder interface) and tensile mass forces taken up by the pistons and connecting rods.

If we set a criterion to limit kinetic energy in the reciprocating group to be roughly constant, which would translate to strain energies that the rods have to take, then the disparities of MPS between say a 4BT and an ALH TDI almost disappears.

Kinetic energy is proportional to the mass times velocity squared.

Mass is proportional to the cube of a characteristic dimension, I'll use bore diameter d here.

So, the kinetic energy is related to d^3*MPS^2.

With the criterion of constant kinetic energy, there results a relationship of bore diameter vs MPS as
MPS is proportional to d^(3/2).

Now let's plug in some numbers:
TDI bore: 79.5mm
4BT: 102mm

Taking the TDI as a baseline with MPS = 14.875 m/s,

14.875 *(79.5/102)^(3/2)=10.23 m/s, which is pretty close to the value of the 4BT's MPS at rated power. The remaining difference can be attributed to the 4BT being designed for heavier duty durability than a TDI.

The take home message here is also that it is not realistic to have a 4BT rev to the same RPM as a TDI, but one can go further to say that it is comparing apples to oranges even to match MPS. Rather, there is a physics-based rationale to relate and scale MPS between engines of different sizes using energetic or mechanical strength criteria.
I don't understand what bore diameter has to do with mean piston speed?
 

Yucca

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Location
Finland
TDI
ALH 388bhp, Polo 6R 2.0TDI CR GTC1752VZ
Apart from Andy2, I have not seen any 400+ HP or even 350+ actually realized in a VE, even though in theory it's possible (I have even done the calcs).
We have had many +350bhp VE setups in Finland. My 388bhp ALH is one example

https://postimg.org/image/ohhm3rdif/

- 1.9ALH Block with H-beam rods
- Ported head from npsheads.com
- Custom CAM
- Borg Warner S356V
- HFLO-X 0.341 Nozzles
- Stock 11mm pump
- Tdituning.fi tune

Engine is now in my Chopped Lupo 3L for Standing Miles.
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
Awesome idea, I hope it pans out. I don't have much to add, other than I am a huge fanboy of diesel tractor pulling. I think if you are allowed to run an intercooler, you absolutely should! I see a lot of guys with "hot farm" tractors that do not, but all the guys that run the best do use them. If they are allowed, you would be crazy not to run it along with water/meth. (only water injection is allowed here in VT).
 

TDIpuller

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
99.5 Jetta 1.9
Awesome idea, I hope it pans out. I don't have much to add, other than I am a huge fanboy of diesel tractor pulling. I think if you are allowed to run an intercooler, you absolutely should! I see a lot of guys with "hot farm" tractors that do not, but all the guys that run the best do use them. If they are allowed, you would be crazy not to run it along with water/meth. (only water injection is allowed here in VT).
We can run them, I just don't know if it would do any good without having much vehicle speed? We don't go much slower than the big tractors, so maybe it's still beneficial?
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I think it still would be beneficial. Construction equipment and farm tractors still have intercoolers. Its still going to dissipate some amount of heat, even if you are moving slowly.
 

vanbcguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
A radiator standing still in the corner of your bedroom still heats the whole room. Ideally you want lots of airflow but even just plain convection will eat a bunch of heat from an intercooler.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

Jetmugg

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Location
Missouri
TDI
None
Also, even though this is a VW specific forum, have you considered a Mercedes OM604? If that engine fits within the displacement limit rules for the class, it's worth a look.


Steve.
 

Tero P

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Finland
TDI
Golf MK4 Estate ASZ 379hp, Passat B5.5 Estate 4motion AVF 365hp
Stock 11mm pump from automatic gearbox Passat.
 
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Tero P

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Finland
TDI
Golf MK4 Estate ASZ 379hp, Passat B5.5 Estate 4motion AVF 365hp
Haven’t dyno it yet. We know that power is somewhere 350-400bhp.
At the moment power is not problem. We need more traction and maybe more wheel speed. Also wider power band would be nice.

But we will go to dyno after this season (maybe somewhere in septemper-october). We want to do some testing and play with cam timing, different injectors etc...
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Reason number 28 why Findland is cooler than the US, right there.

Looks like she walked around a bit towards the end hunting for traction.
 
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