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VW B5 Passat TDIs This is a general discussion about B5 Passat(>98 (2004-2005 in North America)). Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old June 24th, 2019, 10:19   #1
J.P.
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Default Reading EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5?

I'm trying to find a way to read EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5 Passat (BHW engine, 6 spd).

Auto trans b5.5s can read it via VCDS. From this post it looks like manual trans swapped b5.5s can'thttp://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...light=EGT+VCDS

It looks like the standard way to read through measuring block 67 is no longer available to read EGT from the stock EGT probe.

What suggestions for reading EGT?

Can a scanguage pick this data up if it isn't available in VCDS?
A separate probe and gauge?
Use the existing probe wired to a gauge?
Other options?

Thanks!

JP

Last edited by J.P.; June 25th, 2019 at 04:54.
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Old June 25th, 2019, 09:12   #2
Tom in PT
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Here's one idea that might work:

I have an ELM327 WiFi adapter that plugs into the OBDII port and the EngineLink app on my phone. When you start the engine and the EngineLink app is synched to the WifiAdapter, the app will show you a list of available engine parameters, such as various exhaust gas temperatures, that can be displayed in the app.

If, after your swap, at least one of the EGT probes is reporting values it might be available in the EngineLink app.
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Old June 25th, 2019, 15:15   #3
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I have not been able to read that PID through ELM327.
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Old June 26th, 2019, 08:03   #4
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FWIW, I am getting data for PIDs EGT11 Temp and EGT21 Temp in the EngineLink app for my '05 Passat.

I get two more EGT temps (EGT13 and EGT14) when I use the ELM transmitter in my F-250 with 6.7 diesel.
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Old June 26th, 2019, 14:18   #5
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Tom, just to confirm - is your Passat an automatic, or manual trans?



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Originally Posted by Tom in PT View Post
FWIW, I am getting data for PIDs EGT11 Temp and EGT21 Temp in the EngineLink app for my '05 Passat.

I get two more EGT temps (EGT13 and EGT14) when I use the ELM transmitter in my F-250 with 6.7 diesel.
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Old June 27th, 2019, 07:35   #6
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I have a Newsouth gauge in my manual sedan for EGTs...but I wouldn't recommend it. Went through 2 probes and they took my $50 deposit for the replacement one even after I sent in the old one. Then when I asked for it back they ignored all my emails, and another probe showed up at my house. I haven't had time to swap that one in, but even if I do it will probably fail again, maybe its the gauge idk. I can take pics of how its mounted if you want.

Another thing I'm working on is using a W8 cluster with a microcontroller to pull and relay all the data over KWP1281 to the full FIS screen. The project I found as a base is here "FISBlocks" but seems dead. I'm gonna be making my own fork eventually. Its like having a factory built in scangauge
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Old June 27th, 2019, 13:07   #7
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J.P., my '05 Passat still ha the original tiptronic automatic. If your manual swap didn't involve the removing or rewiring the engine/exhaust EGT sensors you might be able to get EGT readings like I do.
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Old June 27th, 2019, 13:29   #8
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The problem is that most or all manual swap ECU tunes use a modified BEW codeblock in the ECU. The BEW did not have an EGT sensor, so it does not display the data.

I'm sure it could be rectified, but I'm not quite there in my abilities yet.
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Old June 28th, 2019, 19:19   #9
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Thanks for the tip. Did you consider using the factory EGT probe, and wiring to a gauge?



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Originally Posted by d0u8l3m View Post
I have a Newsouth gauge in my manual sedan for EGTs...but I wouldn't recommend it. Went through 2 probes and they took my $50 deposit for the replacement one even after I sent in the old one. Then when I asked for it back they ignored all my emails, and another probe showed up at my house. I haven't had time to swap that one in, but even if I do it will probably fail again, maybe its the gauge idk. I can take pics of how its mounted if you want.

Another thing I'm working on is using a W8 cluster with a microcontroller to pull and relay all the data over KWP1281 to the full FIS screen. The project I found as a base is here "FISBlocks" but seems dead. I'm gonna be making my own fork eventually. Its like having a factory built in scangauge
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Old June 28th, 2019, 19:21   #10
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This is what I've found - tunes use a modified BEW codeblock, and it loses group 67 which is were the EGT data is.


I'm wondering if there is a way to use the factory EGT probe (since the ECU is not reading it) with an aftermarket gauge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTD View Post
The problem is that most or all manual swap ECU tunes use a modified BEW codeblock in the ECU. The BEW did not have an EGT sensor, so it does not display the data.

I'm sure it could be rectified, but I'm not quite there in my abilities yet.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 10:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. View Post
I'm trying to find a way to read EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5 Passat (BHW engine, 6 spd).

Auto trans b5.5s can read it via VCDS.

It looks like the standard way to read through measuring block 67 is no longer available to read EGT from the stock EGT probe.

What suggestions for reading EGT?


Other options?

Thanks!

JP
You just need a "manual trans" tune that isn't a BEW. Sadly, that's a very common practice that "works" (kinda) but causes problems like you mention. It's the 10 minute solution that's "easy cheezy" but IMO not very technically correct or elegant.

When I do the passat BHW manual conversion, I use an actual Passat BHW file that uses a manual transmission. (not a Euro audi file or passat BGW, which are DPF based and have their own problems when used in a BHW Passat) Then there is no problem reading EGT in VCDS, just like a stock BHW passat. Just like as if it came from the factory that way.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 12:20   #12
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Are you sure the ECU isn't reading it, or that VCDS just isn't displaying it? Since EGT has nothing to do with manual vs. automatic transmission, my guess is that the ECU is using the data for something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. View Post
This is what I've found - tunes use a modified BEW codeblock, and it loses group 67 which is were the EGT data is.


I'm wondering if there is a way to use the factory EGT probe (since the ECU is not reading it) with an aftermarket gauge.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 13:00   #13
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You are correct, the EGT display in diagnostics has nothing to do with the transmission per se. The problem is with the way most of the "auto to manual conversions" are actually done.

With (most) BEW ecu, there are dual sets of soft coding built in: one for manual transmission, one for auto (or DSG in the case of 2006 beetles). So "converting" most BEW ECU from auto to manual is as easy as changing the soft coding value with VCDS. (a simplification, but true enough for general discussion purposes)

But with a BHW passat, it's not that straightforward. You see, unlike a BEW, the BHW do not have dual sets of cal data built into the ecu for manual and automatic transmissions. So doing a manual conversion is not as simple for a BHW as it would be for a BEW. BHW require a completely different software version to be loaded on the bench with a BDM in order to have that manual transmission option available in the ecu. It just doesn't exist from the factory.

Somewhere along the way, someone discovered that you could take a BEW ECU and drop it in a B5 Passat and it would run the engine "just fine". So most of these "manual conversions" are just slightly adjusted BEW files that are written to the Passat ecu with a BDM. You can do this, because the actual ecu HARDWARE is 100% identical between BEW and BHW. So the BEW BDM file writes to it, easy peasy.

While this is easy and straightfroward for the tuner, it is not a 100% solution for the end user. There are problems that arise after the "shiny new" novelty wears off. Usually after all the forum praise is posted LOL

One such problem is being discussed here: BEW do not have EGT sensors from the factory. So when you use a BEW file with a few "tuning" maps changed, it will no longer show the EGT when you use a scanguage or vcds or P3 guage, or other display that taps into the ecu diagnostics for the data.

This function CAN be activated in the BEW diagnostics module, but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start. So "manual conversions" have become associated with "loss of egt display" because "that's just how it is"

Most just learn to live with the loss of the EGT indication as a price to pay for driving a B5 passat with manual transmission. And the tradeoff is not such a big deal to some. But it doesn't have to be that way.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 13:33   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
You are correct, the EGT display in diagnostics has nothing to do with the transmission per se. The problem is with the way most of the "auto to manual conversions" are actually done.
With (most) BEW ecu, there are dual sets of soft coding built in: one for manual transmission, one for auto (or DSG in the case of 2006 beetles). So "converting" most BEW ECU from auto to manual is as easy as changing the soft coding value with VCDS. (a simplification, but true enough for general discussion purposes)
But with a BHW passat, it's not that straightforward. You see, unlike a BEW, the BHW do not have dual sets of cal data built into the ecu for manual and automatic transmissions. So doing a manual conversion is not as simple for a BHW as it would be for a BEW. BHW require a completely different software version to be loaded on the bench with a BDM in order to have that manual transmission option available in the ecu. It just doesn't exist from the factory.
Somewhere along the way, someone discovered that you could take a BEW ECU and drop it in a B5 Passat and it would run the engine "just fine". So most of these "manual conversions" are just slightly adjusted BEW files that are written to the Passat ecu with a BDM. You can do this, because the actual ecu HARDWARE is 100% identical between BEW and BHW. So the BEW BDM file writes to it, easy peasy.
While this is easy and straightfroward for the tuner, it is not a 100% solution for the end user. There are problems that arise after the "shiny new" novelty wears off. Usually after all the forum praise is posted LOL
One such problem is being discussed here: BEW do not have EGT sensors from the factory. So when you use a BEW file with a few "tuning" maps changed, it will no longer show the EGT when you use a scanguage or vcds or P3 guage, or other display that taps into the ecu diagnostics for the data.
This function CAN be activated in the BEW diagnostics module, but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start. So "manual conversions" have become associated with "loss of egt display" because "that's just how it is"
Most just learn to live with the loss of the EGT indication as a price to pay for driving a B5 passat with manual transmission. And the tradeoff is not such a big deal to some. But it doesn't have to be that way.
"but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start".....really???????

How about instead of being arrogant and bashing others just like your employees, you enlighten us as to how this is done...oh wait, I'm still waiting for your response to that supposed "software flaw" BHWs have, that you were complaining about in another thread and never responded to when asking for actual information showing what you were talking about and how you fix it.

Starting to think you're talking out your butt, but maybe if we were given some actual information I wouldn't be so hesitant to believe you.

Last edited by d0u8l3m; July 2nd, 2019 at 14:46.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 21:03   #15
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I do not know of any tuner that is writing a BEW MPC file to the ECU via BDM for a manual swap, that is just silly. In fact, the reason for using the modified BEW codeblock is to avoid such a thing. The stock BHW flash can be pulled using an alientech portable flash unit or MPPS, and emailed to the tuner. The conveniently compatible BEW manual codeblock is added to the data with maps modified to suit the BHW. The file is then emailed to the customer or dealer and it is flashed back into the customers ECU. This avoids sending away the ECU have it opened and BDM'd.

I need to ask Kerma, have you ever actually done this stuff yourself, or do you have someone doing your tuning for you? Legit question, not a dig. It just doesn't sound like you've been into the "nuts and bolts".

I don't think it is a terrible shortcoming to have one measured value block missing, which is really just an oversight that could be enabled if anyone cared to do so. If you are tuning beyond a generic stage 2 tune, I feel it prudent to have fast responding, standalone gauges anyway.

I am not aware of any other shortcomings of this method of tuning for a manual swap. I have done several manual swaps and have logged many, many miles in all of them. Some I've even tuned myself, heaven forbid... They all work great. Even some with self installed PD nozzles...
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