Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Thank you Toby. Passion for the business. Love what we do. Happy to help.
Febi vs Colt vs Frank06
- Thread starter db123
- Start date
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
James,
Maybe you should buy one of our cams. You wouldn't be disappointed.
Maybe you should buy one of our cams. You wouldn't be disappointed.
tikal
Veteran Member
Radionuclid Wear Measurement (RNT)
So going back to post # 57, if I may ask to look at the following presentation from VW (credit to Bob Fout):
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=19648
Does the testing discussed on page 14 (Radionuclid Wear Measurement) have any relevance to the real world environment experienced by the Pumpe Düse cams in North America?
It seems to imply that, within light-duty diesel engine rated oils, the 507.00 spec is much sturdier than the 505.01 (650 hours vs. 250 hours, almost three times longer).
So going back to post # 57, if I may ask to look at the following presentation from VW (credit to Bob Fout):
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=19648
Does the testing discussed on page 14 (Radionuclid Wear Measurement) have any relevance to the real world environment experienced by the Pumpe Düse cams in North America?
It seems to imply that, within light-duty diesel engine rated oils, the 507.00 spec is much sturdier than the 505.01 (650 hours vs. 250 hours, almost three times longer).
peiphil
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Location
- Tignish PEI Canada
- TDI
- 2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
I have seen more arrows flying different directions on an old John Wayne movie!
Ever hear of a trucking company using Castrol 505.1 in their trucks?
Not that many of the larger oil companies bow down to the big and very expensive VW test to get their approval.
VW oil buyers do not add up enough for a profit in sales for that test by VW.
Lots of oils out there that far exceed VW specs
Cummins Cat etc wont give warranty when Castrol assoil etc are used
.Not saying they are no good just what the paper says.
Trucking companies buy their oil from Walmart ? think not!
tikal
Veteran Member
Sorry if my message was somewhat ambiguous.
I am hoping to focus our conversation on non-heavy duty oils in the context of this thread (Pumpe Düse cams in North America) and also independent of the brand if possible.
I am hoping to focus our conversation on non-heavy duty oils in the context of this thread (Pumpe Düse cams in North America) and also independent of the brand if possible.
James & Son
Veteran Member
Franko6, I was not expecting you to read the paper.
It is good because it visually on pg 22 compares roughness to the numerical values pg 15 you and I were talking about.
Everyone, only look at pictures on pg 22 and then look at chart on pg 15
So Frank everyone can compare what you are providing at 4 microinches( smooth finish)
compared to what you get in an aftermarket cam at .5 micometers ( rough ).
Frank I believe you were talking in microinches whereas as the AMC engineer was using micrometers.
Pg 15 gives the cross reference chart and the pictures on Pg 22 has pictures magnified to correspond to the numerical values of roughness.
You nicely presented why your cam is successful and I know your words are truthfull ( because it doen't pay to be otherwise on the net).
Since the thread is about Febi, Franko and Colt, and I have studied the Febi, I presented the Febi side of the thread as neutrally as possible and carefully so people do not get the wrong impression. The AMC engineer presented the aftermarket side of the debate( cost factor). The Nasa paper( pg 22 and 15 only) helps one understand what you are providing (smooth), what AMC is providing( medium rough) and what Febi is providing( rough).
Everyone needs to read what the AMC engineer said, what Frank said and then compare to the Nasa paper on pages 22 and 15 only. No skim reading please of posts.
One thing that Frank has said that is very interesting is that the OEM filter is doing the job for his cam. He has not seen any failures due to oil or debris in the oil, assuming you follow his recommendations for breakin and oil use.
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Biggest differences I see are the financial costs of the camshafts.
The new FEBI / Kobbelschmidt camshafts ( complete kits) are less than $600. The Frank06 and the Colt Stage 2 camshaft kits are pushing the $1400 range. Better camshafts -- ABSOLUTELY.
Are they worth double the money / price ??
My personal feeling is that I already have 160,000 miles on my ten year old Passat. It had a new ZF transmission installed last November.
If I have a new $600 FEBI camshaft kit installed and I can drive another 160,000 miles / 10 years ; I will then have a 320,000 mile car that is 20 years old.
By then, most people would be tired of driving a 20 year old car and most likely this Passat will be ready for another
$3600 transmission. Seems the life of a camshaft and automatic transmission is 150-180k.
The nearly $800 cost savings from buying the FEBI camshaft can pay for a bunch of labor or buy a whole bunch of Diesel fuel.
I would love the better regarded camshaft in my car, but its really hard to justify double the price.
Thoughts ?
The new FEBI / Kobbelschmidt camshafts ( complete kits) are less than $600. The Frank06 and the Colt Stage 2 camshaft kits are pushing the $1400 range. Better camshafts -- ABSOLUTELY.
Are they worth double the money / price ??
My personal feeling is that I already have 160,000 miles on my ten year old Passat. It had a new ZF transmission installed last November.
If I have a new $600 FEBI camshaft kit installed and I can drive another 160,000 miles / 10 years ; I will then have a 320,000 mile car that is 20 years old.
By then, most people would be tired of driving a 20 year old car and most likely this Passat will be ready for another
$3600 transmission. Seems the life of a camshaft and automatic transmission is 150-180k.
The nearly $800 cost savings from buying the FEBI camshaft can pay for a bunch of labor or buy a whole bunch of Diesel fuel.
I would love the better regarded camshaft in my car, but its really hard to justify double the price.
Thoughts ?
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Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
James, I skimmed to find the hardness of the test material, as I think that would certainly make a huge difference. No information was presented that I could see.
Peiphil, the main reason we avoid Castrol, particularly the TXT and SLX is the number of engines we have seen with sludge in the crank case. Literally, we call the customer and tell him what oil he is using(Castrol) and he says, "Yeah, that's right!" The reason we have dissed Mobile 1 is due to a particular issue related to loss of the engine's #4 cylinder/ piston. It has happened a few times and the common element is great maintenance and the use of Mobile 1 TDT. Sorry, but I will not risk it.
Deming, I think $700 for a cheapo BRM kit, from a relatively trustworthy vendor...that is without timing belt, which we supply in our kit. You don't have to buy it. The cam is still warrantied. There is also no oil for break-in for your cheap kit, which we believe strongly in. And we modify the bearings for an obvious engineering mistake that VW made. It is a $100 modification, even complimented by one of our competitors. The pressure on the cam was reversed, but no engineering was allowed to compensate for the change. Our mod improves oiling to the bearings and to the cam followers.
It is commonly understood that the farther North you go, the less ambient temperature has to do with cam wear, but that is one of the major issues. Also, the more you drive your car at pure highway speeds, the less the issue. But that doesn't mean we don't have lots of customers happy with results, North and South of our location in SW Missouri.
Also, I wouldn't exactly count my chickens... as you haven't installed to Febi cam. We have seen some wear out very quickly. Sorry, but that is from customer reports.
So, if we are going to compare, the major difference, assuming a BRM engine, is $300 for a chrome-plated journal, reprofiled cam, $100 modified cam bearings and $85 for two oil changes, using our Joe Gibbs break-in oil. Don't compare a kit without a timing belt to a kit WITH a timing belt.
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin
But in the scheme of things, whenever possible, let's compare apple to apples, OK?
Peiphil, the main reason we avoid Castrol, particularly the TXT and SLX is the number of engines we have seen with sludge in the crank case. Literally, we call the customer and tell him what oil he is using(Castrol) and he says, "Yeah, that's right!" The reason we have dissed Mobile 1 is due to a particular issue related to loss of the engine's #4 cylinder/ piston. It has happened a few times and the common element is great maintenance and the use of Mobile 1 TDT. Sorry, but I will not risk it.
Deming, I think $700 for a cheapo BRM kit, from a relatively trustworthy vendor...that is without timing belt, which we supply in our kit. You don't have to buy it. The cam is still warrantied. There is also no oil for break-in for your cheap kit, which we believe strongly in. And we modify the bearings for an obvious engineering mistake that VW made. It is a $100 modification, even complimented by one of our competitors. The pressure on the cam was reversed, but no engineering was allowed to compensate for the change. Our mod improves oiling to the bearings and to the cam followers.
It is commonly understood that the farther North you go, the less ambient temperature has to do with cam wear, but that is one of the major issues. Also, the more you drive your car at pure highway speeds, the less the issue. But that doesn't mean we don't have lots of customers happy with results, North and South of our location in SW Missouri.
Also, I wouldn't exactly count my chickens... as you haven't installed to Febi cam. We have seen some wear out very quickly. Sorry, but that is from customer reports.
So, if we are going to compare, the major difference, assuming a BRM engine, is $300 for a chrome-plated journal, reprofiled cam, $100 modified cam bearings and $85 for two oil changes, using our Joe Gibbs break-in oil. Don't compare a kit without a timing belt to a kit WITH a timing belt.
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin
But in the scheme of things, whenever possible, let's compare apple to apples, OK?
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Tikal,
I think that the 507.00 rated oils are specifically:
1. 5-30 weight oils, which we have seen enough oil spectro-analysis to believe that 5-40 is a better choice for our PD, ALH and AHU engines.
2. That the additives for the overhead cam 505.01 compared to rocker/roller 507.00 oils are not a fair comparison, as there are necessary wear elements included in the 505.01 oil for the cam lobe/ cam follower interface that are not in the 507.00 oils.
Saying this is opening the proverbial 'can of worms', as I know that 'oil wars' are a whole lot more hotly contested than 'cam wars' ever will be...
I think that the 507.00 rated oils are specifically:
1. 5-30 weight oils, which we have seen enough oil spectro-analysis to believe that 5-40 is a better choice for our PD, ALH and AHU engines.
2. That the additives for the overhead cam 505.01 compared to rocker/roller 507.00 oils are not a fair comparison, as there are necessary wear elements included in the 505.01 oil for the cam lobe/ cam follower interface that are not in the 507.00 oils.
Saying this is opening the proverbial 'can of worms', as I know that 'oil wars' are a whole lot more hotly contested than 'cam wars' ever will be...
tikal
Veteran Member
Thanks Frank for your detailed response.
I am a data person and I was trying to find out why in Europe is so hard to find PD cam failures (early wear out) using 507 spec oils in which, as we know, the old continent was an early adopter, even with Pumpe Düse engines. Also more city driving over in Europe (more congested) that would make the wear out worse, correct?
I have some theories:
1) The '800 pound gorilla' is the break in procedure, specially the first five minutes on a new cam. Apparently we are screwing this in North America worse than in Europe.
2) On the average North American VW dealers have been using regularly inadequate Castrol oils (mediocre HTHS values, etc.) when servicing PD engines since 2004 = higher PD cam failure rate.
3) On the average North America D2 quality is worse than in Europe, although the gap is narrowing slowly (maybe).
4) All of the above
Thanks for reading. I am not in any camp here folks. Just trying to understand how things work and don't work.
I am a data person and I was trying to find out why in Europe is so hard to find PD cam failures (early wear out) using 507 spec oils in which, as we know, the old continent was an early adopter, even with Pumpe Düse engines. Also more city driving over in Europe (more congested) that would make the wear out worse, correct?
I have some theories:
1) The '800 pound gorilla' is the break in procedure, specially the first five minutes on a new cam. Apparently we are screwing this in North America worse than in Europe.
2) On the average North American VW dealers have been using regularly inadequate Castrol oils (mediocre HTHS values, etc.) when servicing PD engines since 2004 = higher PD cam failure rate.
3) On the average North America D2 quality is worse than in Europe, although the gap is narrowing slowly (maybe).
4) All of the above
Thanks for reading. I am not in any camp here folks. Just trying to understand how things work and don't work.
James & Son
Veteran Member
It is only roughly finished cam shafts that are causing the majority of the problem. Any cam shaft with an adaquet surface finish and roughness will breakin and develope the necessary oil film.
The rougher the cam, or the higher the spring pressure the more elaborate the procedure for breakin.
The BRM has 60lb seat pressure and 147 lb open pressure so spring pressure is not the problem, VW engineers did not design the cam to fail.
Automotive Breakin requires 3 things. 1) a surface that is not excessively rough and will breakin to a smoothness allowing the oil to separate the surface. 2) a initial boundary lubricant( this could be soluble grease, parkerization, moly rub in, etc. 3) a base oil with a adequate surface film strength but it's main feature is as a soluble carrier for an active anti-wear additive to prevent galling during the first 500 miles.
THE PROBLEM, as I see it, is the surface roughness of the base circle. This surface roughness on the base circle of the cam does not break in at the same speed as the nose.
In fact I believe what happens is under curtain conditions the base circle makes hard enough contact increasing the roughness of the follower that in turn will disrupt the oil film on the nose.
What causes this hard contact. It is pretty obvious to me.
If the cam is smooth enough initially and there is adequate bleed down in the follower this contact should not be able to take place.
So now this opens up a whole avenue of thought. The simplest solution that I see is that the after market sellers and I am especially pointing to ID parts and Bora to put a thick coating of parkerization on the rough cheap after market cam. This will help in general with breakin of the cam and especially will hopefully fill the rough valleys in so a film will form quickly on the base circle and still allow breakin which is happening at a much slower pace on the base circle.
Parkerizing is a cheap process but going to an industrial processor is expensive due to the one off. A cam processor that speciallizes in this process is your best bet to keep the price down for one cam.
Now you can buy Franks or Colts Cam and you have a number of things already helping this problem ( smaller base circle increases bleed down) even if they don't even realize it. I have been posting the above picture for some time now and I think slowly some thinking is starting to swing my way.
The rougher the cam, or the higher the spring pressure the more elaborate the procedure for breakin.
The BRM has 60lb seat pressure and 147 lb open pressure so spring pressure is not the problem, VW engineers did not design the cam to fail.
Automotive Breakin requires 3 things. 1) a surface that is not excessively rough and will breakin to a smoothness allowing the oil to separate the surface. 2) a initial boundary lubricant( this could be soluble grease, parkerization, moly rub in, etc. 3) a base oil with a adequate surface film strength but it's main feature is as a soluble carrier for an active anti-wear additive to prevent galling during the first 500 miles.
THE PROBLEM, as I see it, is the surface roughness of the base circle. This surface roughness on the base circle of the cam does not break in at the same speed as the nose.
In fact I believe what happens is under curtain conditions the base circle makes hard enough contact increasing the roughness of the follower that in turn will disrupt the oil film on the nose.
What causes this hard contact. It is pretty obvious to me.
If the cam is smooth enough initially and there is adequate bleed down in the follower this contact should not be able to take place.
So now this opens up a whole avenue of thought. The simplest solution that I see is that the after market sellers and I am especially pointing to ID parts and Bora to put a thick coating of parkerization on the rough cheap after market cam. This will help in general with breakin of the cam and especially will hopefully fill the rough valleys in so a film will form quickly on the base circle and still allow breakin which is happening at a much slower pace on the base circle.
Parkerizing is a cheap process but going to an industrial processor is expensive due to the one off. A cam processor that speciallizes in this process is your best bet to keep the price down for one cam.
Now you can buy Franks or Colts Cam and you have a number of things already helping this problem ( smaller base circle increases bleed down) even if they don't even realize it. I have been posting the above picture for some time now and I think slowly some thinking is starting to swing my way.
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Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
James,
We will depend on those whose specialized engineering skills meet with our needs, but are always interested in people's opinions.
Based on our cam engineers and our experiences with them,I disagree with you on several points, including surface roughness, parkerizing, surface film strength, cam follower bleed-down, base circle size...
I am not depending on data from NASA, or speculation from engineers with no known credentials. We have a time-tested product, run in cars and proven. Our cam engineer insists on parkerizing, as a warranty basic. I depend on a cam engineer with over 50 years experience. I will follow their recommendations, as it is effective.
"VW did not design the cam to fail."
Are you kidding me?
Engineers build within guidelines presented by manufacturers, not always with longevity in mind. I have multiple comments from cam design engineers that, "...can't understand what (VAG) was thinking..." concerning the design of the PD cams. That cam, given certain criteria, is a failure.
On a more current note, the FSI direct injected gasoline engine is being recommended for 20,000 mile inspection interval because the fuel injector cam wears out way too quickly. Don't tell me VW is designing successful cams, because they are not always getting the job done. I think they are headed for a class-action suit on that FSI cam.
So is it also with the common rail cams...new engineering... When the belt breaks, the cam sprocket and holder slips in relation the the shaft, which ruins the cam. Being a roller cam, it should be survivable in this instance. But there are no splines, detents or flats to hold alignment for the cam lobes, sprocket and gears, depending completely on the surface contact of the parts assembled onto a hollow shaft. We have begun designs for the common rail engine's cam, as we think that large increases in power will stress the cam to the point of failure.
I will post separately about our progress on the common rail heads.
We will depend on those whose specialized engineering skills meet with our needs, but are always interested in people's opinions.
Based on our cam engineers and our experiences with them,I disagree with you on several points, including surface roughness, parkerizing, surface film strength, cam follower bleed-down, base circle size...
I am not depending on data from NASA, or speculation from engineers with no known credentials. We have a time-tested product, run in cars and proven. Our cam engineer insists on parkerizing, as a warranty basic. I depend on a cam engineer with over 50 years experience. I will follow their recommendations, as it is effective.
"VW did not design the cam to fail."
Are you kidding me?
Engineers build within guidelines presented by manufacturers, not always with longevity in mind. I have multiple comments from cam design engineers that, "...can't understand what (VAG) was thinking..." concerning the design of the PD cams. That cam, given certain criteria, is a failure.
On a more current note, the FSI direct injected gasoline engine is being recommended for 20,000 mile inspection interval because the fuel injector cam wears out way too quickly. Don't tell me VW is designing successful cams, because they are not always getting the job done. I think they are headed for a class-action suit on that FSI cam.
So is it also with the common rail cams...new engineering... When the belt breaks, the cam sprocket and holder slips in relation the the shaft, which ruins the cam. Being a roller cam, it should be survivable in this instance. But there are no splines, detents or flats to hold alignment for the cam lobes, sprocket and gears, depending completely on the surface contact of the parts assembled onto a hollow shaft. We have begun designs for the common rail engine's cam, as we think that large increases in power will stress the cam to the point of failure.
I will post separately about our progress on the common rail heads.
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vwUMO
TDIClub Enthusiast
I'd like to pick up a new CR head setup once you've got it sorted! I just did some minor cleanup and polishing on mine but would love to go more aggressive if it makes sense! Great mtg you at TDIFest!
Bri
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
I found this old thread and I will give an update.
First off, the cam kit has dropped in price, because several of our parts dropped in price. It's still not a 'cheap kit', but it is designed to be durable.
Which brings me to #2. With almost 2200 cam kits sold, we have about a dozen that failed due to overheat or loss of engine oil. We worked with those failures and rebuilt those engines. Cam failure with no know cause are a total of 2. One we kinda know what happened; the other is a head-scratcher, but we did replace those cams. One failure was at 238,000 additional miles. They used the 507.00 5-30 weight oil... wrong stuff!
Our mileage leader has 440,000 additional miles on his engine. Many engines are over 250,000 and going well.
Because of our attention to detail, our loss ratio on our cams is below .001%, which is nothing short of astounding. I could not be more pleased. Although some will say oil is not an issue, EVERYTHING becomes an issue when you are talking about total engine life expectancy. Our most popular engine oil is the Scheaffer's 9000 5-40 and we still do break-in with Joe Gibbs BR, which we also supply.
And as for our 'unrequested web site' where you could 'safely complain about Frank's VW TDI's', let's just say it disappeared when it became too expensive for them to continue. It wasn't a server in Iceland, it was in Panama City, Panama. Either way, it was immune from any legal action, but not from the cost of doing it's dirty business.
We work to keep our reputation clean and TDI's are still not just a job description, but a hobby gone wild. We do our job with a passion for durable builds.
'Do It Once and Do It Right'
'Build It Like You're Gonna Buy It'
First off, the cam kit has dropped in price, because several of our parts dropped in price. It's still not a 'cheap kit', but it is designed to be durable.
Which brings me to #2. With almost 2200 cam kits sold, we have about a dozen that failed due to overheat or loss of engine oil. We worked with those failures and rebuilt those engines. Cam failure with no know cause are a total of 2. One we kinda know what happened; the other is a head-scratcher, but we did replace those cams. One failure was at 238,000 additional miles. They used the 507.00 5-30 weight oil... wrong stuff!
Our mileage leader has 440,000 additional miles on his engine. Many engines are over 250,000 and going well.
Because of our attention to detail, our loss ratio on our cams is below .001%, which is nothing short of astounding. I could not be more pleased. Although some will say oil is not an issue, EVERYTHING becomes an issue when you are talking about total engine life expectancy. Our most popular engine oil is the Scheaffer's 9000 5-40 and we still do break-in with Joe Gibbs BR, which we also supply.
And as for our 'unrequested web site' where you could 'safely complain about Frank's VW TDI's', let's just say it disappeared when it became too expensive for them to continue. It wasn't a server in Iceland, it was in Panama City, Panama. Either way, it was immune from any legal action, but not from the cost of doing it's dirty business.
We work to keep our reputation clean and TDI's are still not just a job description, but a hobby gone wild. We do our job with a passion for durable builds.
'Do It Once and Do It Right'
'Build It Like You're Gonna Buy It'
d0u8l3m
Veteran Member
I'm gonna stick with the stock cam, if I ever need to replace it (they are all billet anyways). 145k and thing is still pristine. Haven't looked at my donor motor yet for my truck that has 211k, but its still running great other than the BSM still being there.
Price to performance it makes no sense on a BHW to get either a franko6 or colt cam. You loose performance with these cams unless you tune them at the same time since they are the BEW profile.
Also not for nothing I was put off by the phone call me and Frank had, his tone was just a tad bit condescending, and having his wife yell for him multiple times like I was calling a friends house was annoying/unprofessional. He also basically told me my plan for my truck (BHW+S10) was stupid (not his words but his drift)...which no its not lol many others with TDI swapped trucks will attest to that. He did however give me a bit more insight to some of the "design issues" with these PD engines.
As for colt, the kerma rep was very rude to me at waterfest last year too, so I refuse to support them regardless.
I haven't used franks or a colt cam, so I cant speak for the products themselves, I don't doubt that they do their job, but at the end of the day they aren't worth their price premium IMO
Just my two cents FWIW.
Price to performance it makes no sense on a BHW to get either a franko6 or colt cam. You loose performance with these cams unless you tune them at the same time since they are the BEW profile.
Also not for nothing I was put off by the phone call me and Frank had, his tone was just a tad bit condescending, and having his wife yell for him multiple times like I was calling a friends house was annoying/unprofessional. He also basically told me my plan for my truck (BHW+S10) was stupid (not his words but his drift)...which no its not lol many others with TDI swapped trucks will attest to that. He did however give me a bit more insight to some of the "design issues" with these PD engines.
As for colt, the kerma rep was very rude to me at waterfest last year too, so I refuse to support them regardless.
I haven't used franks or a colt cam, so I cant speak for the products themselves, I don't doubt that they do their job, but at the end of the day they aren't worth their price premium IMO
Just my two cents FWIW.
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Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
d0u813m,
Just run across this...
When you call me, you are calling my home/ office. Sometimes there are grandkids in the background. I'm sure Mary didn't intend to 'be rude'. It' her house, too. I wonder about the 'yelling'. Was it, "Hey, Frank!",? This is a true-to-form 'Ma and Pop' Shop. We don't know people by invoice number, we know their NAMES. We will never have the Corporate feel,or as I have said before, 'the illusion'. What you see is what you get. We don't have a granite-floored lobby with glass walls and a rotating sign out front...
As for what I'd put a PD into, you are entitled to do whatever you like. I really don't mind. As for me, I might do another swap. After many difficult swaps, it's tough to consider another. I NEVER have told people EVER what to choose as a swap. That's your business. The PD becomes problematic. There are easier engines to swap and ones with less issues and more ability.
Truthfully, when you get the same drift from 'the other guys', I'm wondering if it's my problem or maybe, it's some sensitivity. In this business, I've found, as in my previous one, Rhino hide can be useful. When you put yourself in the public eye, you will attract both the positive and the negative. People will assume without confirming. Happy to talk; not always on point.
As for the latest we have seen concerning cam longevity, in the last couple of years, we have seen plenty of people consider the 'cost effective' alternatives to our cam kit. The loss leader was a AMC cam installed in a Canadian 06 BRM, which lasted 25,000km; 17,000 miles. I will always remember his wife's comment, "I thought we bought this car to save money..."
We have seen a quite a number who have attempted the 'cheap' cam, some as inexpensive as $90. The life expectancy is no where near the original cam, with the average lasting about 50,000 miles. We have had people ask if we will warranty the stock aftermarket cam. The answer is "NO". At that time, the problem was the cam's profile was not the entire issue. The chamfer on the edge of the cam was much larger, further reducing the width of an already too narrow lobe. We saw too many wearing out in less than a year.
Now, we recently saw both Febi and Kolbenschmidt climb back into the cam cellar, and are providing Chinese cams. My opinion is the quality control is always going to be the problem with the Chinese. Last time we got 'switched' by our wholesaler, we tested cam hardness and the cams came in far below expectation. Rockwell C of 59-61 is normal. We got a set that was Rc 44. Rejected the entire lot and blew the whistle on the company, Kolbenschmidt. That was about 3-4 years ago and now, they are back doing the same thing.
We are in the 'Once and Done' business. So, that is our 2 cents.
Just run across this...
When you call me, you are calling my home/ office. Sometimes there are grandkids in the background. I'm sure Mary didn't intend to 'be rude'. It' her house, too. I wonder about the 'yelling'. Was it, "Hey, Frank!",? This is a true-to-form 'Ma and Pop' Shop. We don't know people by invoice number, we know their NAMES. We will never have the Corporate feel,or as I have said before, 'the illusion'. What you see is what you get. We don't have a granite-floored lobby with glass walls and a rotating sign out front...
As for what I'd put a PD into, you are entitled to do whatever you like. I really don't mind. As for me, I might do another swap. After many difficult swaps, it's tough to consider another. I NEVER have told people EVER what to choose as a swap. That's your business. The PD becomes problematic. There are easier engines to swap and ones with less issues and more ability.
Truthfully, when you get the same drift from 'the other guys', I'm wondering if it's my problem or maybe, it's some sensitivity. In this business, I've found, as in my previous one, Rhino hide can be useful. When you put yourself in the public eye, you will attract both the positive and the negative. People will assume without confirming. Happy to talk; not always on point.
As for the latest we have seen concerning cam longevity, in the last couple of years, we have seen plenty of people consider the 'cost effective' alternatives to our cam kit. The loss leader was a AMC cam installed in a Canadian 06 BRM, which lasted 25,000km; 17,000 miles. I will always remember his wife's comment, "I thought we bought this car to save money..."
We have seen a quite a number who have attempted the 'cheap' cam, some as inexpensive as $90. The life expectancy is no where near the original cam, with the average lasting about 50,000 miles. We have had people ask if we will warranty the stock aftermarket cam. The answer is "NO". At that time, the problem was the cam's profile was not the entire issue. The chamfer on the edge of the cam was much larger, further reducing the width of an already too narrow lobe. We saw too many wearing out in less than a year.
Now, we recently saw both Febi and Kolbenschmidt climb back into the cam cellar, and are providing Chinese cams. My opinion is the quality control is always going to be the problem with the Chinese. Last time we got 'switched' by our wholesaler, we tested cam hardness and the cams came in far below expectation. Rockwell C of 59-61 is normal. We got a set that was Rc 44. Rejected the entire lot and blew the whistle on the company, Kolbenschmidt. That was about 3-4 years ago and now, they are back doing the same thing.
We are in the 'Once and Done' business. So, that is our 2 cents.
truman
Top Post Dawg
My franko6 reprofiled bew cam has been in my bhw for 145k now. I have been more than happy with its performance. Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.
PickleRick
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2017
- Location
- Greenville sc
- TDI
- 05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Im wondering why you'd consider the pd (bhw in particular) to be harder to swap than others in small trucks/suvs and jeeps? There are diesel options that dont have electronics, it costs about 900 bucks for the tune and a plug and play harness to be made for you which is not all that much more than say a Chevy ls engine stand alone harness and tune.
There is also the hp to weight ratio that puts the bhw well ahead of the cummins 4bt and isuzu 4bd1t(or2)
The electronics are simple and make diagnostics a breeze.
For the us market it makes a great motor for most sub 4500 lbs vehicles. The biggest chore ive ever had in any of my conversions are proper regearing and adapter options. Gearing options are really only limited to your budget and fab skills and with gas2diesel and acme adapters there is no shortages of trasmission options. Being priced sub 1500 isnt bad, but for a hassle free install its worth a few extra bills.
The old 1.6 motors are simple but have tractor like power. The alh in stock form isnt much better outside of a geo tracker. The BHW with a stage 2 tune should make an fj40, yj or cj feel like a fast log wagon. Compared to a factory isuzu diesel s10 it should feel like a corvette!
There is also the hp to weight ratio that puts the bhw well ahead of the cummins 4bt and isuzu 4bd1t(or2)
The electronics are simple and make diagnostics a breeze.
For the us market it makes a great motor for most sub 4500 lbs vehicles. The biggest chore ive ever had in any of my conversions are proper regearing and adapter options. Gearing options are really only limited to your budget and fab skills and with gas2diesel and acme adapters there is no shortages of trasmission options. Being priced sub 1500 isnt bad, but for a hassle free install its worth a few extra bills.
The old 1.6 motors are simple but have tractor like power. The alh in stock form isnt much better outside of a geo tracker. The BHW with a stage 2 tune should make an fj40, yj or cj feel like a fast log wagon. Compared to a factory isuzu diesel s10 it should feel like a corvette!
d0u8l3m
Veteran Member
Thanks for the laugh, pretty sure I'm not one of them special sensitive snowflakes as I was referring to the kerma rep directly not anyone from colt. The people I've talked to from Colt know how to talk to customers.
As for your home/office situation I was not aware, and assumed I was calling your shop directly, regardless it felt a bit unprofessional IMO, but I work with corporate people everyday so its just something I'm not used to.
You still seem to be missing the point I was making. I'm also only talking specifically about the BHW in my use case, as I'm well aware BRMs and BEWs love to eat cams.
You yourself have stated that most cams are billet now in another thread, so I'm not sure why you would sell your customers anything other than your own if they are not.
Now the stock replacement I'm specifically talking about is the one form idparts which states "These cams are from Febi, made by Estes in Turkey"
So ignoring any chinesium crap as we all know they suck (idk why you would even bring up a $90 cam as just the thought of that doesn't make any sense) , why would I be wrong in saving money getting a stock billet cam made from a reputable manufacturer???
Your cams probably offer some more durability, I'm not disputing this. All I was trying to say was that price wise, it doesn't make sense to me to spend double on a cam when the stock billet BHW cams are fine.
Ask Oilhammer how many stock BHW cams hes seen with 300k plus and still run fine...its pretty much all of them.
I also didn't say that you explicitly told me what to swap in my truck, however don't try to deny that you were condescending/put off by the idea as that's up to my interpretation. At the end of the day I was a prospective customer and now I'm not. You can either take the feedback in stride or keep trying to be defensive and keep me/the few people I talk to who ask for my opinion non customers.
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auntulna
Veteran Member
It is certainly difficult as a customer, to get a good feeling as to whether spending 500 more dollars will be worth it. I think Deming stated it pretty well in his post 2015, the trade-offs of spending high dollar for part of an old car.
But in regard to the impression gotten from Frank on the phone, I think there's a difference between expectations in different parts of our country. As noted, Frank is at home when you reach him, whether it's in the shop or his house. This is a good thing! When he retires, there won't be hardly anyone like him left anywhere. I find it a delight to visit his shop in Lockwood except for those memorable occasions when his neighbors have just recently spread "fertilizer".
But in regard to the impression gotten from Frank on the phone, I think there's a difference between expectations in different parts of our country. As noted, Frank is at home when you reach him, whether it's in the shop or his house. This is a good thing! When he retires, there won't be hardly anyone like him left anywhere. I find it a delight to visit his shop in Lockwood except for those memorable occasions when his neighbors have just recently spread "fertilizer".
ltmerritt
Member
New guy here
My 1.9tdi is now in need of a camshaft. 265k miles. What kind of price am I looking at? It'll more than likely include the whole shebang (lifters, ect). I'll have the timing belt and such done along with it all. Just wondering if it's worth it.
Thanks!
My 1.9tdi is now in need of a camshaft. 265k miles. What kind of price am I looking at? It'll more than likely include the whole shebang (lifters, ect). I'll have the timing belt and such done along with it all. Just wondering if it's worth it.
Thanks!
TornadoRed
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2003
- Location
- West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
- TDI
- 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
I don't think you can go wrong with one of Frank's cylinder heads. I got one of his at 256k miles on my '03 Golf after a TB failure, then replaced that one 436k miles later at 686k miles. Now, this was an ALH engine and not a PD engine, but my experience should give you some idea of the quality of his workmanship with either generation of TDI engines. Frank says his cylinder heads should last 250k miles, but was pleased to hear that the one he provided to me had lasted so much longer.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Cam kits have gotten less expensive: https://www.idparts.com/camshaft-replacement-kit-bew-038109101r-p-1317.html Almost all quality cams for PDs are now billet, and I'm pretty sure they all come from one manufacturer.
d0u8l3m
Veteran Member
Case and point.
However your page for the BHW is a bit confusing, are they from Febi or AMC? Febi is in the description and AMC is the only selectable drop down. Any way you can verify with the vendor if they are billet?
https://www.idparts.com/bhw-camshaft-replacement-kit-038109101af-p-1425.html
Thanks
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
I think we have AMC right now, but as I wrote above, almost all of them come from the same place. Both Febi and AMC buy from Estas, who makes billet PD cams for most everyone, including Colt. So whether the box says Febi or AMC, you'll get the same cam.
d0u8l3m
Veteran Member
Nice, thanks for the info!
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Ah, so now I remember you, DOu8. I'm the sensitive one, right? I finished what you were looking for from my other post, and you did again what you've done before. As I stated on that post, what is said here that you are depending on may be right, for the moment, and that is only MAYBE, but I made my statement and stand by it.
Personally, I am not willing to take a chance on a company that I reject for quality issues, not just for the cam, but the springs, valve seats, keepers, etc.
I will now show the difference between an AMC valve cotter and a genuine VW...
Normally, I won't repair AMC cylinder heads. Because there was a college student on a very fixed budget, I swallowed and rebuilt the AMC last December. I gave a limited warranty.
The set of valve split cotters (keepers) was only one of the issues we had with that head...
These are the cotters that broke along the line of the valve keeper rings. I have never seen this on any cylinder head before or since.
Next pic... the internal comparison of AMC to OEM...
Top Compared: The left is the AMC. look at the top keeper ring seat. Also, there is a funny dent on the AMC.
And one more, from the same head. A valve guide bore that is about .015" off-center from the cam follower pocket.
You might think that doesn't make a difference, but in my book, accuracy counts.
So, once you start looking, you can see the reasons I like to stick with OEM or quality OEM parts providers. That usually applies. But when supposedly good companies start thinking greed and bottom feed, the end-user usually finds out, the hard way. That, unfortunately is what is happening far too often.
I could show the pics of cam followers that last 2 years, 50k, when they should last at least 250k. Some of them are knockoffs with INA stamped on them. We know where those come from and who has sold them.
Personally, I am not willing to take a chance on a company that I reject for quality issues, not just for the cam, but the springs, valve seats, keepers, etc.
I will now show the difference between an AMC valve cotter and a genuine VW...
Normally, I won't repair AMC cylinder heads. Because there was a college student on a very fixed budget, I swallowed and rebuilt the AMC last December. I gave a limited warranty.
The set of valve split cotters (keepers) was only one of the issues we had with that head...
These are the cotters that broke along the line of the valve keeper rings. I have never seen this on any cylinder head before or since.
Next pic... the internal comparison of AMC to OEM...
Top Compared: The left is the AMC. look at the top keeper ring seat. Also, there is a funny dent on the AMC.
And one more, from the same head. A valve guide bore that is about .015" off-center from the cam follower pocket.
You might think that doesn't make a difference, but in my book, accuracy counts.
So, once you start looking, you can see the reasons I like to stick with OEM or quality OEM parts providers. That usually applies. But when supposedly good companies start thinking greed and bottom feed, the end-user usually finds out, the hard way. That, unfortunately is what is happening far too often.
I could show the pics of cam followers that last 2 years, 50k, when they should last at least 250k. Some of them are knockoffs with INA stamped on them. We know where those come from and who has sold them.
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d0u8l3m
Veteran Member
You're taking this way too personally man. All I've done is use the forum to ask questions and try to gather accurate information. I'd rather buy an OEM one from iDparts regardless of how long they'll last, or even a colt at that point, just to not deal with you as a vendor. I'd love to try one of your cams/modified bearings, but not at the expense of being belittled over asking simple questions.
If we could trace down the paperwork showing where all these cams were made that would be ideal. (This should be easy since these companies are all ISO 9000) Otherwise its simply a math problem for anyone needing a cam.
How long are you likely to keep the car/engine?
if < 150k mi
save your money, get a cheap cam
else if
>150k get a "good one"
I'll let you know what I decide when one of my 200k+ mi stock bhw cams decides it wants to chew itself up.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
To the best of my knowledge all VW PD cams (or at least the 4 cylinder engine ones) are made by Estas in Turkey. AMC, Febi, Kolbenshmidt, and Colt all get their cams (or blanks) in billet from Estas. There may be some inexpensive cast cams available, but we haven't seen any of those for a while.