White smoke at injector area?

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
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CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
So I recently bought a 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd w/ 230K miles with a few bumps but in generally good working condition. It was maintained by the dealer and owned by an old European couple who were its only owners. I've been slowly changing the fluids and filters in my spare time and it drives very well with no engine fault codes according to VCDS.

After changing the vacuum lines today (the old ones were horribly frayed), I took it for a drive and when I came back I popped the hood with the engine running and noticed a bit of smoke coming from the #4 injector area closest to driver. I tried to pin point if it was coming from the injector or glowplug (or other), but couldn't really tell. As a note, the valve cover is leaking and I plan on replacing it when I do the timing belt.

On another perhaps related side note, there is usually a puff of white smoke out of the engine bay on startup. It's not continuous, just a quick puff. I thought it was coming from the exhaust flex pipe which is broken (which will also be fixed at some point soon).

I took a video, sorry for the lack of focus at times and the dirty engine (which will be cleaned soon too!)
https://youtu.be/qDMH94W_4tU

I searched through the forums and saw a thread about oil leaking down from the valve cover potentially causing that (which I hear is not a good thing to happen). Should I keep driving it until I change out the valve cover? Is there something I should check? I'm pretty handy mechanically but no expert by any means. Thanks
 
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bbexotics

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Oct 14, 2012
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albuquerque
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2004 Passat,2006 Jetta, 2003 Jetta wagon, 2017 Cayman S
Probably oil hitting hot block, I would fix soon, then check injectors for leaks
 

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
Location
CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Probably oil hitting hot block, I would fix soon, then check injectors for leaks
Interesting, didn't know that could happen but i'll check to see if it does it when engine is cold. But you're right, I should do TB and valve cover first. I'll try to clean off some of the old oil and debris from that area at same time and see if it comes back after I'm done. Thx
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Spray some soapy water (when engine isn't hot) around the injectors and GPs. Start the engine and see if you can note any combustion leaks.

If it's oil leaks and they're getting that hot you're going to smell it.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Most of these alh valve cover leak. Usually down the back of the engine. Giving the backside a wonderful black tint. It doesn’t hurt to drive as long as it’s not spewing out a quart or so every couple hundred miles.

That liquid looks a little thin and light colored to be oil. I’d say it’s fuel. However clean it all up and see if you can pinpoint the source. If it’s the glow plug put some never seize on it and tighten it back down to spec.

If it’s the injector try tightening it first, failing that replace the injector seal.


https://www.idparts.com/injector-seal-1zahualh-p-375.html

If it’s the valve cover get some rtv and put a thin coat on the head to help that thing seal.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Those small fuel return hoses are prone to dry rot ... maybe leaking and dripping down on the hot head/block!

Or, as someone suggested, check for combustion leakage coming up around the GP or Injector with some soapy water!

I recently purchased a new to me 03 Jetta with the ALH engine. It has two GPs spewing (bubbling) while idling, but no smoke!
 

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
Location
CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Next weekend I'll spray some soapy water and take a closer look.

I think I'll also replace the rubber fuel return lines, they are constantly wet and if vacuum lines (and everything else on this car) are any indication they probably have never been replaced. I haven't inspected the glowplugs, so now seems like a good time. May as well take a look at the injectors, replace the copper washer and retighten everything down. It's gunky and dirty as hell in the area behind the injectors so good time to clean it up too!

One unrelated bonus find, I removed the rubber pipe from EGR to Intercooler and took a look (which crooked my neck good) and saw the intake looked pretty darn clean!

Thanks all, will report back in a week or two
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Next weekend I'll spray some soapy water and take a closer look.

I think I'll also replace the rubber fuel return lines, they are constantly wet and if vacuum lines (and everything else on this car) are any indication they probably have never been replaced. I haven't inspected the glowplugs, so now seems like a good time. May as well take a look at the injectors, replace the copper washer and retighten everything down. It's gunky and dirty as hell in the area behind the injectors so good time to clean it up too!

One unrelated bonus find, I removed the rubber pipe from EGR to Intercooler and took a look (which crooked my neck good) and saw the intake looked pretty darn clean!

Thanks all, will report back in a week or two
Do one change at a time. Go with the easy and most likely thing causing it.

Replacing the fuel return lines is cheap and may be the thing to clear up the smoking. Make sure it can handle diesel. Removing injectors that have soot accumulation to replace ostensibly non-leaking copper seals is going to cost some time and may be for naught. You may have to get a injector puller.

If anything, go buy a can of degreaser and clean the engine after replacing those lines. They may be too brittle to handle any water pressure. A clean engine will warn you of problems sooner than figuring out a new leak over an old history.

Vacuum lines. small and large.
 
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jekl843

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Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Do one change at a time. Go with the easy and most likely thing causing it.

Replacing the fuel return lines is cheap and may be the thing to clear up the smoking. Make sure it can handle diesel. Removing injectors that have soot accumulation to replace ostensibly non-leaking copper seals is going to cost some time and may be for naught. You may have to get a injector puller.

If anything, go buy a can of degreaser and clean the engine after replacing those lines. They may be too brittle to handle any water pressure. A clean engine will warn you of problems sooner than figuring out a new leak over an old history.

Vacuum lines. small and large.
Thanks for the links Jokila, I replaced the vacuum lines last weekend and noticed a nice power boost (the vacuum line to the turbo was definitely leaking, it got up to speed noticably quicker when merging onto the highway home!). I was planning on doing one thing at a time. I'll start with soapy water to try to identify where it's coming from and go from there. Knowing me, I'll end up replacing fuel return lines and glow plugs anyway. I don't think the injectors warrant a cleaning because nothing indicates there's something wrong with them, but I might do it anyway... at the very least if it's the source of the smoking.

I'm debating a tune and some upgrades, but right now I'm thinking of sticking to pure stock as I have my GTI as my "fast and fun" car. I want to keep the TDI as my pure commuter/beater car in the hopes of it lasting many more miles!
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
If these are the original nozzles then at 230k miles they're likely pretty long in the tooth. I went with new nozzles in my cars because I wanted to get things as fresh and optimized as I could (for the long haul), as well as to bump up the size a notch. That would likely be something to consider doing. One can then contemplate adding a tune, though that will beckon a clutch upgrade. I considered my adding performance to be a safety factor: roads we run on have lots of big trucks. You'd be surprised at what one of these cars with only slight performance mods is like to drive.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Thanks for the links Jokila, I replaced the vacuum lines last weekend and noticed a nice power boost (the vacuum line to the turbo was definitely leaking, it got up to speed noticably quicker when merging onto the highway home!). I was planning on doing one thing at a time. I'll start with soapy water to try to identify where it's coming from and go from there. Knowing me, I'll end up replacing fuel return lines and glow plugs anyway. I don't think the injectors warrant a cleaning because nothing indicates there's something wrong with them, but I might do it anyway... at the very least if it's the source of the smoking.

I'm debating a tune and some upgrades, but right now I'm thinking of sticking to pure stock as I have my GTI as my "fast and fun" car. I want to keep the TDI as my pure commuter/beater car in the hopes of it lasting many more miles!
yw


Glow plugs are not like spark plugs and don't need to be replaced unless they are indicating failure. Are you getting a glow plug code? You can test them manually if you like, but the 2002 should indicate which plug is failing, unless it's the harness.

If you do take them out, i would again mention that cleaning the engine means less likelihood of getting debris down the hole or grabbed into the threads as you go back and install. I've done an alternative of blowing out the dust in those recesses and running brake cleaner spray to knock out the goop that tends to build up in those areas.

There are plenty of reports of people breaking off glowplugs during installation or removal, so go slow. If you get crap in the threads it's just adding to the friction.
 

jekl843

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Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
CT
TDI
2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
If these are the original nozzles then at 230k miles they're likely pretty long in the tooth. I went with new nozzles in my cars because I wanted to get things as fresh and optimized as I could (for the long haul), as well as to bump up the size a notch. That would likely be something to consider doing. One can then contemplate adding a tune, though that will beckon a clutch upgrade. I considered my adding performance to be a safety factor: roads we run on have lots of big trucks. You'd be surprised at what one of these cars with only slight performance mods is like to drive.
I was debating exactly that, the nozzles aren't terribly expensive on IDParts. I like your train of though about increased performance improving your safety :) Not too keen on doing a clutch upgrade tho. Will driving around with larger nozzles and no tune adversely affect the engine?

yw


Glow plugs are not like spark plugs and don't need to be replaced unless they are indicating failure. Are you getting a glow plug code? You can test them manually if you like, but the 2002 should indicate which plug is failing, unless it's the harness.

If you do take them out, i would again mention that cleaning the engine means less likelihood of getting debris down the hole or grabbed into the threads as you go back and install. I've done an alternative of blowing out the dust in those recesses and running brake cleaner spray to knock out the goop that tends to build up in those areas.

There are plenty of reports of people breaking off glowplugs during installation or removal, so go slow. If you get crap in the threads it's just adding to the friction.
The only code I get is the following (and I've searched for hours finding very little about it)
19456 - Glow Plug Indictor Light (K29)
P3000 - 35 - 10 Malfunction Message from Instrument Cluster - Intermittent

When I bought the car, the glow plug LED on the instrument cluster had burnt out so I figured that's what triggered this code. I removed the cluster and soldered a new LED and the glow plug light works again. However, that fault code still causes the CEL to pop on so I'm guessing it's a wiring issue which I'm not too interested in investigating.

Otherwise there's no indication glow plugs are bad as it fires right up even when its cold. It's got a mild stumble for 5-10 seconds when its cold but smooths out, I figure that's normal diesel behavior in the cold. I still think for peace of mind, and because they're only $20 bucks a plug, why not change them out. (Although to your point, I can think of the counterargument of, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!).

I'll take your suggestion about cleaning up the gunk before removing/inspector any glow plugs, nice and slow with some degreaser, paper towels, Q-Tips and compressed air. Maybe I'll even throw a tooth brush in there. Is it weird that I'm looking forward to doing that? :D
 
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jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
A faulty brake light switch can cause the glow plug light to come on or flash. Research that condition on this site.

Save yourself the $80 on the 4 glow plugs. They work or don't. The slight stumbling is normal if it's very cold. Some people think that cycling the ignition off and back on after the glow plug light as gone out will reheat the plus enough to make them a better hot spot.

I don't know the proof if that works, but you can try it. Also, check the ignition timing because cold weather seems to affect starts when the ignition is in the retarded range.
 

jekl843

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Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
A faulty brake light switch can cause the glow plug light to come on or flash. Research that condition on this site.

Save yourself the $80 on the 4 glow plugs. They work or don't. The slight stumbling is normal if it's very cold. Some people think that cycling the ignition off and back on after the glow plug light as gone out will reheat the plus enough to make them a better hot spot.

I don't know the proof if that works, but you can try it. Also, check the ignition timing because cold weather seems to affect starts when the ignition is in the retarded range.
Thx Jokila, that's an old VCDS scan right before I bought the car. I switched out the brake light switch and regained function of my cruise control. Cleared the immobilizer fault and it never came back. I checked the timing and it was spot on, just above the center line. That first fault for the glow plug "indictor" light remains and will perhaps forever remain but its something I can live with.

You're getting me convinced to hold off on the GPs! This weekend will just be some soapy water, a good clean and the fuel return lines :cool:
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Yep -- they should read low but not zero ohms. Usually when they fail they fail open, so if you get an infinite reading on one or more it's definitely dead.
 

UhOh

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Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Can get a GP code if there's any significant difference in resistance. It might affect actual performance, though to what extent would depend on resistance differences.

Here's the ultimate GP thread. In it I included a "trick" of stuffing foil on top of a glowpulg if it's resistance is good, harness connection clean and has requisite voltage: the connectors slowly expand such that the don't clamp on as tight as they should, causing a weak connection.
 

jekl843

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CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Thanks gents for the info, I do have a multimeter somewhere and will check the resistance out over the weekend. That thread is great, really this whole forum and its members are awesome, I don't think I'd even own this car let alone do work on it without TDIClub!

The Meguiars Super Degreaser I ordered isn't coming in until Tuesday unfortunately so won't have a chance to do some serious cleaning this weekend. But at least I can put some soapy water and check GP resistance... oh yeah, and try to track down the smoke source too, lol.

Interesting tip with the foil UhOh. Maybe that's the source of the P3000 code

Will report back
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
That degreaser will be great for cleaning the engine, but if you're just looking at a small spot hit it with brake cleaner, have a small wet rag with a little soap on it and wipe off any overspray on plastic or rubber, if needed.
 

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
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CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Haven't had a real chance yet to work on it, last weekend I got busy and it was cold and windy (unfortunately no garage). Tomorrow looks like a balmy 40-45 in my neck of Connecticut and no plans yet so I expect a few cold Guinness' and a nice afternoon of giving some love to this poor neglected TDI are in order!

One thing I noticed is that the smoke continues a good 1-2 minutes after I shut the engine off which is making me lean towards bbexotics idea that it could be oil dripping from my leaky valve cover and hitting a hot point on the block. If I had to guess, it looks like its coming from the bolt that holds the injector bracket to the block. I wiped down the area behind the injector and it got wet again after only a short drive (she leaves a nice quarter sized oil gift wherever I park). I plan on cleaning at least around injector 4 area the best I can (thx for brake cleaner tip BobnOh) and seeing if smoke returns before the oil drips down from the VC. Right now, my primary suspect is the leaky VC.

Quick semi-related side story, when I bought the car, the owner had a few 1L bottles of Castrol 15W40 Diesel Engine Oil in the trunk and said "I was told to throw this in when the oil gets low" *slaps head*. I could tell VC was leaky, but it didn't look awful. After I got it, I immediately changed the oil and got about 3.75-4 liters of old oil in my extractor. I replaced with Total Quartz 9000 5W40 and I'm guessing the thinner oil is probably making the leak more pronounced. I've driven about 2K and check the oil weekly, it has stayed at a pretty consistent level within the hatchmarks but I plan on changing the oil soon as part of my "oil flush". A new valve cover will be on order soon as I read the ebay gasket for $25 is generally frowned upon (and that the original gasket is a PITA to remove from the VC)

I found my multimeter and still plan on soapy water test, checking the GP harness voltage and glow plugs resistances. The harness rubber looks much newer compared to the other rubber components in the engine bay so I'm thinking it was replaced in the somewhat recent past. No hack wiring job from what I can tell. But I also want to clean this whole block, it is just so damn nasty... frankly it's embarrassing!!

Lol, honestly the habits of the previous owner and whoever worked on this car completely mystifies me. The amount of old leaves, pine needles and debris that were around the engine cowl and around trunk made it look like it'd never been cleaned in its life. But then the cavity behind the fender/rocker area was completely clean and rust free. The vacuum lines were horribly frayed and leaking (especially one to turbo), but when I removed the large rubber hose from intercooler to EGR valve and shown my flashlight down there to inspect intake buildup I saw just a few mm of oily film like it'd been recently cleaned. It's like someone did a good job at fixing/maintaining the more difficult items but couldn't give a crap about the easy stuff. Boggles my mind, but it's a bonus for me!

Will report more after this weekend, I'll try to take a photo of this engine so you can understand the dirtiness I'm talking about too.
 
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jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
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CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
well, didn't do quite what I had planned today. I removed the harness and checked the glow plugs' resistances, all were around 1.8-1.9. I flipped around the harness to look at the connectors, all had wonderful copper and it looked brand new so I didn't even bother checking the voltage. I'm not getting any GP codes and the instrument cluster GP code hasn't popped up again since I cleared it a week ago.

As I was putting the harness back, I lightly pushed a return fuel line and heard a *hissssss*. Great I thought, the source of my leak! I replaced all the return fuel lines along with the nipple on the end. The old ones were all brittle and covered in soot/oil, probably the originals. I got sidetracked by the sunny day and went to the nearby state park to run some diesel purge. Here's a pic of my setup


Then I went home and did an oil change w/ the extractor using LiquiMoly 5w40 High Tech with a new filter as part of my "oil flush". I got about a bit over 4 liters out so she's not burnin' too much after 2K. I should have checked the intercooler for oil, but at that point I got lazy, went to get some food and checked to see if the smoke was still there... Yep, still there.

I have to say that Diesel Purge is really good stuff, engine is definitely quieter and it seems to given it a bit more life. Tomorrow's another nice day and some more testing is in order!
 
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ToxicDoc

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Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216


Diesel Purge worked great for me. You don't need the tubing if you don't have any. I just held the lines in a cup.
 

UhOh

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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
^^^ That works until the cup goes sideways on you! I use the can itself; once had the return line pop out and in no time flat ran all the contents out on to the garage floor:eek: (the IPs can flow a good amount of fuel!) I was inside the car revving the engine and then the next thing I knew the engine was stalling out (starving for fuel).
 

ToxicDoc

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Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
^^^ That works until the cup goes sideways on you! I use the can itself; once had the return line pop out and in no time flat ran all the contents out on to the garage floor:eek: (the IPs can flow a good amount of fuel!) I was inside the car revving the engine and then the next thing I knew the engine was stalling out (starving for fuel).
I couldn't fit both lines inside the mouth of the can, and then I realized even if I could, they wouldn't reach the bottom. I made sure to seat the cup well ,and I kept a very close eye on it. I had the concerns you expressed but there was no movement.
 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Did you clean the outside of those hoses before submerging them in the cup?

I like to show off my Red-neck engineered Diesel Purge set-up! Works great and filters the mix. (Hoses, clean Jif Peanut Butter jar, fittings and JB Weld .. in use since 2012)

 

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
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CT
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2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
I like the diesel purge setups, especially the cup... just make sure no one drinks from it when you bring it back in :D

Well, Lazy Sunday Syndrome set in and I decided that cleaning the engine before replacing the valve cover would be silly so nothing engine related today. I did finally install a used fender I picked up off FB Marketplace a while back. I'd been lugging it in my trunk with the rear seats down so now I have use of my rear seats again, yay!

It was surprisingly easy to remove the bumper. The hardest part was getting the hood release latch back on and getting to those torx bits behind the wheel. One of the fender bolts was completely covered in rubbery goop too, but nothing a flat head couldn't remove. I managed to take out the fender liner without taking off the wheel or raising the car, I just turned the wheel all the way left (i'm stock suspension with stock 15" wheels so maybe that's why I had room). Looks a bit better!


Did replacing the fender clear the smoke??... nope, still there lol

I think I'll order a new valve cover this week for next weekends Jetta shenanigans... Ahh crap, I forgot the check the intercooler with the bumper off. *slaps head*
 

jekl843

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Mar 12, 2014
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CT
TDI
2011 Golf TDI (sold), 2002 Jetta TDI 5spd, 2017 GTI SE 6spd
Busy day today!! Almost too many things to count... but let me list relatively cosmetic ones first:
1) Installed cupholder center console and adjusted parking brake. Also installed upgraded latch and upgraded armrest hinge (Ok, I really that that last night)
2) Installed new dogbone pendulum mount, the old one was disintegrated. Engine is much less sloppy now.
3) Had a local shop weld on a new flex pipe, no more diesel fumes in the cabin (big freakin' yay!)
4) Replaced the heatshield metal washers, the other ones had almost completely disintegrated, literally crumbled in my hand, and the heat shield was rattling against the new flex pipe (i was afraid something much worse had happened when I heard that rattling noise!)
5) Replaced windshield wiper nozzles, both of them were broken and not clipped in.

And of course installed a new valve cover. The old ones didn't seem too badly torqued but it did require some effort to take them off. I couldn't tell if the PO (or whoever worked on the car) slapped on a bunch of sealant or the old gasket was disintegrating but I had to spend a decent amount of time removing the old rubber/silicone material and cleaning the surface. After it was shiny clean, I put a dab of Permatex Ultra Black at the corners and made sure to torque the new VC back to 7 ft/lbs.

So... this is the first time I've seen a camshaft in person. Anything I need to be worried about? It looks like it's in decent shape, a little worn but is it anything to worry about? Here's what it looked like when I took it off




and after


I took it for a quick drive and it went into limp mode on the highway, luckily i had my computer and vcds with me. I got fault code 17964: Charge Pressure Control - Negative Deviation. I cleared it, and it was hissing loudly under heavy acceleration. After a quick search on here, I saw my pancake intercooler hose was disconnected from the rubber hose coming out of the turbo. I put reconnected and it was good to go, but that little U-shaped metal clip doesn't seem to be doing its job... hmm... maybe time to look at upgrading that pancake pipe.

I blasted some brake cleaner behind the injectors and it cleaned it up very nice, thanks for the tip. After a quick drive, everything was dry except for around the #4 injector. I did the soapy water test and saw some bubbles coming around the injector. Its due for a timing belt soon and I'm debating if I should just have a guru help me out and maybe even upgrade nozzles at the same time.

It's also still leaking oil... It drips off my new dogbone and also off the driver side of the oil pan. I'm starting to delve into less comfortable territory here... might be time for a good once over by a guru. The project continues on!
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
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2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Look at the disks under the camshaft lobes.
There should not be any spider webbing lines on them.
Lobes look OK from the picture.
There should be a slight chamfer on the edge going around which I think I see.
 
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