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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old August 29th, 2006, 13:42   #1
TDIMeister
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Default EPA mulls over urea-injection rules

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/29/e...jection-rules/

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...41/PROMOBLOG01

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The EPA is considering rules that will require the vehicle to eventually stop running if drivers don't keep the tank filled.

Karl Simon, the EPA's assistant director for the office of transportation and air quality, said the agency is focusing on an early-warning system that notifies drivers when the urea tank is low.

The agency also is considering an inducement that forces drivers to refill the urea tank - for example, preventing the engine from starting if the tank is empty or automatically locking the fuel filler door until the urea supply is replenished.

The agency says automakers will have to make it easy for drivers and technicians to identify the urea tank and refill it.
Let's see if we can be grown up with the urea jokes, OK, guys?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 13:50   #2
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the solution of having the tank re-fill occur at the same time the oil change is due makes sense. However, I am NOT keen on the idea of permitting the dealership to be the only one that can perform this service.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 13:56   #3
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SpinDaddy, you hit the nail right on the head! Not only are the EPA anti-diesel, but also blindly pro-hybrid. That's why the EPA's mileage rating for hybrids are waaaay off! We don't hear diesel drivers complaining that they can't attain the EPA's mileage ratings, like we do from so may hybrid drivers.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 13:58   #4
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You won't have to (in theory):

Quote:
Simon says the EPA also is focusing on:

Ensuring the urea system is tamperproof and can't be disabled. Since urea is injected into the vehicle's exhaust system, the engine runs normally without it.

Assuring that the system works in cold weather. Urea freezes at about 11 degrees Fahrenheit.

Widespread availability of urea. It could be sold at auto parts stores, quick lube shops, dealership service departments and gas stations.

Assurance that the urea refill interval is at least as long as the manufacturer's oil change interval so both items can serviced at the same time by the dealership.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 15:17   #5
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I'm still having trouble seeing this as anything other than a stopgap solution while waiting for a much better technology. Honda claims to be able to meet emissions standards without any additive-based aftertreatment system, and the ideal system would be comparable to a catalytic converter in terms of longevity. Widespread availability of the additive is their best hope to make this viable, because otherwise people will gladly circumvent whatever "tamper-proofing" is put in place, just to get their car to run. (Plus a person with deep enough pockets and an immobilized car will easily get pissed to the point of legal action against the manufacturer.) Unless this really is the wave of the future, which I doubt, I can see these cars trading at a significant discount on the used market.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 17:38   #6
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This may be the solution to the "stop at a gas station for a bathroom break only"... you could fill up both tanks!
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Old August 29th, 2006, 19:17   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by istewart
I'm still having trouble seeing this as anything other than a stopgap solution while waiting for a much better technology. Honda claims to be able to meet emissions standards without any additive-based aftertreatment system, and the ideal system would be comparable to a catalytic converter in terms of longevity. <...>
Not quite, the additive in the adsorber-based systems is raw fuel. Gotta get them electrons from somewhere. But it is likely that exhaust treatment will see a few iterations before settling down.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 20:54   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacka5
Not quite, the additive in the adsorber-based systems is raw fuel. Gotta get them electrons from somewhere. But it is likely that exhaust treatment will see a few iterations before settling down.
Well, that's the one additive that the car needs to move, although if it causes a stark negative effect on mileage then it'd probably have even worse trouble with regards to marketing. The diesel Accord in the UK seems to be on par with the Jetta for fuel consumption, though, but I don't know if it's running their exhaust treatment system yet.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 10:46   #9
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Default Bluetec not Carb Legal

Edmunds reports Mercedes Bluetec not able to pass emissions in California!

STUTTGART, Germany The soon-to-be-launched and much-hyped Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec has reportedly failed to meet emissions criteria in the important states of California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York and Vermont.

Mercedes said its E320 CDI was "the cleanest diesel vehicle in the world," but apparently not clean enough for U.S. regulators.

Despite their popularity in Europe, diesels have never been commonplace in the United States and have a reputation as a technology for big rigs only. But there's a more ecological explanation for the lukewarm reception. Diesel is actually more harmful to the environment than gasoline because it generates more nitrogen oxides (NOx), gases that play a major role in the formation of acid rain and haze.

It is no wonder, then, that many U.S. states impose strict emissions levels for diesel-powered vehicles. European regulators in turn have begun to demand "NOx traps" for diesel vehicles.

Mercedes-Benz tried to tackle the problem by utilizing a catalytic device that converts NOx to nitrogen. Its Bluetec system, introduced in the Vision GL320 concept shown at the North American International Auto Show in January, injects an aqueous urea fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust system. AdBlue is intended to separate NOx into hydrogen and water.

Despite the setback in the United States, Mercedes has already been using Bluetec-equipped commercial vehicles for some time, and it plans to offer Bluetec-equipped cars in Europe by 2008.

What this means to you: Diesel is more frugal, but presents unique emissions problems for engineers. Sooner or later, it's got to work Mercedes isn't the only one desperate to get modern diesels, so popular in Europe, into the U.S.
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Old September 4th, 2006, 21:34   #10
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CA is trying to get the next generation of OBD to have a transmitter so when the check engine light comes on it notifiys the DMV and the owner will get a letter saying they have to have their car fixed. Next they will have it notifiy the police when I speed.
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Old September 4th, 2006, 23:54   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMopar
Aren't gasser owners compelled to keep their cars in good tune to avoid pollution?
Yep, SMOG testing, works pretty well in California, don't pass the smog test = no registration = car gets impounded if you drive it. Least that's how it used to be there for a while.
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Old September 6th, 2006, 06:08   #12
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Default EPA ready to set urea guidelines

For the first time, the EPA is ready to hand drivers the responsibility for making sure a vehicle's emissions system works properly.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...41/PROMOBLOG01
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Old September 7th, 2006, 14:05   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMopar
Somebody please explain to me, why should diesel cars be subject to a standard that no gasoline car has to meet? Why shouldn't gasoline powered vehicles have a no-start condition when there is a fault in their emissions system? Aren't gasser owners compelled to keep their cars in good tune to avoid pollution?
The OBD-II system for gassers can adjust the engine emissions parameters to compensate for part failures.
Timing, fuel richness, injection, EGR cycle, etc.

But if the urea additive is depleted it would most likely affect the
system as a whole so greatly (for emissions) that the computer
wouldn't be able to compensate.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 14:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbombay
Yep, SMOG testing, works pretty well in California, don't pass the smog test = no registration = car gets impounded if you drive it. Least that's how it used to be there for a while.

There's talk up here in WA State that the state will stop emission
testing in the next few years because the turnover lever has reached
a level of saturation of cleaner emission vehicles attributing to a
very small amount of failures being found.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 17:14   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMopar
Somebody please explain to me, why should diesel cars be subject to a standard that no gasoline car has to meet? Why shouldn't gasoline powered vehicles have a no-start condition when there is a fault in their emissions system? Aren't gasser owners compelled to keep their cars in good tune to avoid pollution?
If it makes you feel any better the next generation of direct injection gassers will also have a NOx problem, at least when running in lean-burn cruise mode. They might not run quite as lean, in which the adsorber might be good enough, but then they'll take a hit in efficiency.
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