I need some help with my Bottom End...

OmegaRenegade

Vendor
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Location
Brampton
TDI
2004 Jetta
I find myself in an unusual position where my bottom end of my motor needs repair. Currently i am burning a lot of oil (approx 1L every 2.5-3000km's) and am getting a nasty amount of blowby.

Having had my head fully rebuilt with new seals, lifter and gaskets, my diagnoses is that my rings are fried and quite possibly some other kinds of damage to the pistons, cylinder walls, etc that has yet to be seen.

I have spent a lot of money in this car to call it quits but at the same time i dont wanna be dropping another $4000+ into it at this time.

In the past, whatevers broken i've replaced with upgraded aftermarket parts and my car has progressed to the point its at now, where its not as black and white as slapping something bigger on. I've not heard of too many people who venture into pistons, rings, crank bearings, connecting rods, ect ect.

Does anyone know of a place where i can source out 'stonger' or 'better' parts to replace my stock internals or should i be looking to leave the bottem end stock and just buy another bottom end (new or used) and slap that in its place.

When we rebuilt the head we did a compression test on the cylinders and found that they were all holding about 430PSI or BAR cant remember the units and were all within +/-3 units (BAR/PSI) of one another. So my understanding would be that my compression rings are still good seeing as i dont notice any performance pitfalls, only the massive oil consumption. what is the worst case scenario for driving my car in this state? if a ring totally fails, am i looking at catastrophic damage? (something blowing up) i DO drive my car very hard however in its current state i'm mostly driving for economy and havnt pushed it the way i would have in the past.

I dont have any plans to go much past 200WHP (maybe 250hp tops if this upgrade allows) would still prefer to keep this a daily driver.
In summary,

What vendors, shops are out there for upgraded bottom end parts?
Should i even bother trying to upgrade or just stick with stock?
What are the possible risks of running my car in this state?

I appreciate any and all help on this and thank you in advance for your time.

Thank you!
 
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KROUT

persona non grata
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Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
How many miles is on the turbo? Did you have the oil burning problem before the head rebuild?
 

OmegaRenegade

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Dec 15, 2005
Location
Brampton
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2004 Jetta
KROUT said:
How many miles is on the turbo? Did you have the oil burning problem before the head rebuild?
Sorry I should have mentioned that the initial reason that my head was rebuilt was because I skipped a few teeth on my timing belt. Pistons smacked the valves and bend a few rods. I sourced locally a used PD130 head with injectors and got the shop to rebuild it with new seals, lifter, gaskets, cam bearings – basically the works. We slapped it on and all was good till now.

The turbo has 16 000km’s on it – replaced when the 1856SV turbo blew up which was back in November.

The oil burning issue was there prior to the head rebuild, it just wasn’t as evident as it is now. When the engine is up to temperature and idling, you can see clear as day a heavy amount of gasses escaping from the CCV port on the valve cover. Also you can see nice puffs of smoke coming out of the oil dip stick if you pull that open.

I think a combination of poor engine tuning couple with very high EGT’s is my cause for the wear on the rings. In the past my tunes have been very smokey WOT and recently when I had my EGT gauge installed I see temperatures in excess of 1800*F after a few seconds WOT between 3rd and 4th gear, accelerating from 60km/hr to 160km/hr – doesn’t take long to do but its scarey how fast the EGT’s climb aswell.
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
I suspect that before your timing belt broke you may have had a very slight crack in one of your pistons.......on your timing belt skipping a few teeth it is very likely that on contact with said piston to said valve it unduely opened up this crack even futher to an extent where a high blowby through this hole in the crown wall above or at the c/r line or through the top of the piston itself...............how the first small crack arose would only be a guess but it could have been to your admission down to prolonged bad tuning.
 

OmegaRenegade

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Dec 15, 2005
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Brampton
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2004 Jetta
when the head came off the car we thoughroughly inspected the pistons and there was no signs of damged. Also wouldnt a crack in the piston show in a compression test?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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May 1, 2003
Location
england
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mk3 tdi golf
OmegaRenegade said:
when the head came off the car we thoughroughly inspected the pistons and there was no signs of damged. Also wouldnt a crack in the piston show in a compression test?
The crack maybe under the compession ring on the pistons wall.........but one thing is for sure and thats theres something catastrophic going on have large amounts of oil blowby.

P.S when are you going to pull the engine/bottom end to see what is going on........i tried to bury my head but what will be will be!
 
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OmegaRenegade

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Dec 15, 2005
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Brampton
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2004 Jetta
i dont know when i am going to dive into the car for inspection repairs - i'm looking for options as to where to go from here.

If there are websites/vendors locally (north america) then i'll start odering parts and prep for the tear down. But if theres nothing perhaps i need to start looking for a new engine.
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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Either way this engine needs tearing down to find out why this is happening , the best scinario is like what Rub has menstioned and its only a broken piston ring but it still needs investigating with whats gone on before with the piston to valve strike etc.........then the most cost effective thing to do would be to repair the piston/ring and then get yourself a decent tune.
 

OmegaRenegade

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2004 Jetta
pistons dont tend to be sold individually, usually as a set - so my logic is that if i've broken one, is it worthwhile to upgrade? CAN you upgrade?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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May 1, 2003
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england
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mk3 tdi golf
OmegaRenegade!!............I just looked at your sig and thought why didn't you go with a full 130 pd conversion in the first place:eek: i take it that you started with a pd100/105hp.
 

OmegaRenegade

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yea i started with the BEW pd100 - a full motor swap wasnt available to me at the time the belt slipped and for 800$ cdn the complete pd130 head was a bargain.
 

Franko6

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May 7, 2005
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Sw Missouri
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Jetta, 99, Silver`
The one good thing about the PD's is that it is more difficult to smack the piston. However, the rule for checking the pistons before reinstalling the head is to check piston projection. Most particularly, on the pistons where valves made contact, bending the valve.

I measure the projection on both sides of the piston, in line with the wrist pin. If there is substantial variation from side to side on the piston, I feel it wise to remove the piston and inspect the top ring.

There are several ALH engines I have repaired that the force of contact from the valve on the piston, crushed down the piston top capturing the top ring. In cases where the piston's compression ring insert is not cracked, the piston can be salvaged by recutting the ring groove. If the insert is cracked, it is trash. The PD pistons have the same cast insert.
 

OmegaRenegade

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Dec 15, 2005
Location
Brampton
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2004 Jetta
i think thats where my problem MAY be... i dont believe the shop checked the piston projection, and only did a visual on the parts to check for damage. As for contact, all four pistons made contact on the exhaust valve. you could see a clear mark in the carbon on the piston where they made contact.
 

OmegaRenegade

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Brampton
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2004 Jetta
So i know that for sure i need to rebuild my engine, what parts am i missing from my list as "must" items

Pd150 Pistons
Piston Rings
Connecting Rods
Crank bearings
3 Hole Head Gasket
PD150 Head Studs
Oil Pump
Wrist pins??
Oil Pan Gasket

Thats about all the parts that i THINK i need to replace once i've torn into it. I've found a source for the connecting rods - replacing with Rosten H-Beams and am chasing up a few sorces for the PD150 Pistons, Head studs and gasket but anyone have any other sources i could use to get all the bits i need?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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england
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mk3 tdi golf
You could ask StingrayRT or one of the Europian guys if they have a PD 130hp / 150hp short block they can ship to you.
 

OmegaRenegade

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2004 Jetta
i think i may be doing just that - with the used shortblock would one recommend changing the rings and bearings still?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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england
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mk3 tdi golf
No not if the seller can give good reasurance that the engine was/is in good repair and was taken from a low-ish mileage car which they know was running fine..........even an 80,000 / 90,000 mile motor is just brocken in nicely for tuning.
 

Whitbread

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OmegaRenegade said:
So i know that for sure i need to rebuild my engine, what parts am i missing from my list as "must" items

Pd150 Pistons
Piston Rings
Connecting Rods
Crank bearings
3 Hole Head Gasket
PD150 Head Studs
Oil Pump
Wrist pins??
Oil Pan Gasket

Thats about all the parts that i THINK i need to replace once i've torn into it. I've found a source for the connecting rods - replacing with Rosten H-Beams and am chasing up a few sorces for the PD150 Pistons, Head studs and gasket but anyone have any other sources i could use to get all the bits i need?
-Pm Franko6 for a set of oil cooled ASV pistons before he sells out of them, much cheaper than importing pd130/150 units. They also include very nice Goetze rings.
-Email rosten about a set of rods, mine ran $525EU shipped to my door, very reasonable for what you get
-MJM Autohaus sells engine rebuild kits that include all bearings, gaskets, and the oil pump. Also, try TdiParts or the dealer for those parts.
-Use a dial indicator to select the proper head gasket thickness. Increasing squish volume unnecesarily is NOT a good thing on a diesel.
-Use "Right Stuff for Imports" by Permatex for the oil pan gasket
-Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but PD150 headbolts are nothing more than Grade 12.9 M12 non strech bolts that you can get from any good fastener supply place.
 

OmegaRenegade

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2004 Jetta
Whitbread said:
-Pm Franko6 for a set of oil cooled ASV pistons before he sells out of them, much cheaper than importing pd130/150 units. They also include very nice Goetze rings.
-Email rosten about a set of rods, mine ran $525EU shipped to my door, very reasonable for what you get
-MJM Autohaus sells engine rebuild kits that include all bearings, gaskets, and the oil pump. Also, try TdiParts or the dealer for those parts.
-Use a dial indicator to select the proper head gasket thickness. Increasing squish volume unnecesarily is NOT a good thing on a diesel.
-Use "Right Stuff for Imports" by Permatex for the oil pan gasket
-Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but PD150 headbolts are nothing more than Grade 12.9 M12 non strech bolts that you can get from any good fastener supply place.
Thats exactly what i was looking for - thank you very much!!! what about wrist pins, do they come with pistons or do you need to source those seperatley too?
 

The Shootist

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Not to get off topic, but what is the factory torque spec for those PD 150 head bolts. I happen to have a set of 12.9's in a box on the shelf at home.
 

Rub87

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Whitbread said:
-Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but PD150 headbolts are nothing more than Grade 12.9 M12 non strech bolts that you can get from any good fastener supply place.
ASV pistons are not the same as PD pistons..

And the ARL are stretch bolts..
 

OmegaRenegade

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just got around to looking at MJM Autohaus's website and their rebuild kit specifies ALH... i'm guessing this wont work for my BEW...
 

shortysclimbin

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Personally I think your cheapest upgrade option is to go with a pd130/ pd150 bottom end but that really needs to be decided what you need when you dig into the engine. It may only need rods and some seals to do it the cheapest. Expect to pay ~5K USD in rebuilding a full performance engine no turbo or other bolt on parts. A PD130 block would run you much less and take a weekend to swap out.

Thats just my 2 cents.

1) check out to see really what the issue is
2) go with the cheaper of the two routes 200whp is not a lot for a pd


Also if you decide to rebuild it look into new oil pump and chains, rear and main seals, and micro hone the crank. All of these should be considered when rebuilding it as needed.

Another thought is if a Compression test shows good, do a leak down test as well. If both are good my gut says the bottom end really isn't an issue per say. It could be a bad turbo, leaky rear main seal, or clogged breather.
 

Whitbread

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Rub87 said:
ASV pistons are not the same as PD pistons..

And the ARL are stretch bolts..
Woops, my fault for not reading the thread (or his sig :eek:) thoroughly while doing a quicky post on lunch at work. While I don't know the exact differences aside from the trapeziod wrist pin, ASV pistons probably aren't what you want to put in then.

Thanks for the clarification Rub, there's been so many headbolt discussions over the last couple of months that it's hard to keep it all straight. I know someone was talking using non strech 12.9 bolts in something pd with good results....
 

Rub87

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Yes, Hannu was, I think they worked out well for him; atm my ARL bolts are also keeping the head down with around 250hp and 1.9 bar boost :) (altough it's with 17:1 CR so I'm not yet pushing things)
 

OmegaRenegade

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so if these ASV pistons wont work - i'm back to the drawing boards in terms of where to go from here.

Anyone able to confirm if the differences between ALH and BEW (PD) start from the Pistons UP (as in pistons, rings, head ect) and all the stuff below that (Crank, Crank bearings, and connecting rods) are the same?
 
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