Hillhold sucks

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I don't see how it effects the clutch? If you take your time and release the clutch you shouldn't be fighting the brake. I would think the exact opposite of using the ebrake. You would be fight the brake and lack of a better term half clutching it until you get going. Half clutching is what kills a clutch.
Not sure what half clutching is,but if its holding the brake and then bringing the clutch out to the point it is momentarily holding you,then releasing the brake as you bring the clutch out to get you moving? I guess I'm a half clutcher! I've had manual tranmission cars for over 30 years and NEVER had to replace a clutch. Same for my wife and we have kept several of our older diesels for over 200k miles.

87 Jeep Cherokee 2.1 diesel 230k miles-original clutch.
86 VW Golf diesel 320 miles original clutch.
96 Passat Wagen tdi 214k original clutch.
03 Beetle tdi 176k original clutch. Still own it and do not anticipate that the clutch will need replacing unless something comes apart.

I'll just keep doing it wrong for the next 25 years if I last that long!
 
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cj42

Well-known member
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Nov 15, 2007
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East CT
TDI
80 Rabbit,84 jetta,85 Jetta,03 Cummins, 2012 Passat SE 6MT Tdi
I'm not worrird about clutch life but if you think holding the ebrake is any better then the hill hold for the clutch I thinknis a wash. I just don't see the difference of fighting the ebrake pressure while using partial clutch and give it gas and using hill hold.

FYI - I never meant anyone who knows how to drive a stick that did not get 200,000 + on a clutch. I'm not against using the ebrake either but with hill hold its just not needed now.
 

tdiatlast

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Jan 21, 2009
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2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
I'm not against using the ebrake either but with hill hold its just not needed now.

...assuming the hill hold is performing as it is designed to perform. I think there are some defective systems in this discussion...but what do I know? I drive a DSG...
 

no-blue-screen

TDI Nut
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Feb 9, 2006
Location
Maryland
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TDI
I learned on a stick, never had a clutch burn out on me (knocking on wood). I had one smoking though after I ran an 86 Ford Escort into a ditch. My buddy said......you better let that thing cool down a little bit...LOL.

It doesn't bother me. Even those of us that know how to properly operate a clutch screw up once in a blue moon. I have the capability to turn off, but I have learned to live with it. It is a safety feature...but I would feel better if someone in front of me just stalled their car, then to have them roll back and nail me.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
It is a safety feature...but I would feel better if someone in front of me just stalled their car, then to have them roll back and nail me.
LOL! The hill assist will only hold for 2 seconds............so the stalled car in front of you can still roll back and nail you IF the driver doesn't get their foot on the brake and depends on hill assist to hold their car in place. :eek:
 

Knarrly Viking

Veteran Member
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Feb 25, 2012
Location
Washington
TDI
2015 Passat SE 6MT, 2 of them!
If I'm backing a trailer down a hill to launch a boat, I'd rather not have to left foot brake in neutral and tap the fuel pedal to get the hill holder to release. Screw up a boat launch and you end up with wet feet. Suppose I could learn how to heel-n-toe it, but I'd rather learn that for track days, not for launching a boat.
 

r11

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Mar 6, 2012
Location
NJ
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2012 Passat TDI SE 6MT (BB'd), 2015 Passat TDI SE 6MT
Me likes the HA, works as intended although I could see it interfering with habits some folx developed in the days of "simpler" manual trannies. 2 sec is just the right amt to "hold", nuff time to move yer right foot to gas pedal & let the clutch out gently.

W/o HA, using parking break could be a way out .... not sure about heel & toe, could never straddle both pedals with me size 9 shoes :)
 
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no-blue-screen

TDI Nut
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Location
Maryland
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TDI
LOL! The hill assist will only hold for 2 seconds............so the stalled car in front of you can still roll back and nail you IF the driver doesn't get their foot on the brake and depends on hill assist to hold their car in place. :eek:
Stuff happens. At least he/she has that two seconds to figure out what the heck is going on.

If someone is that much of a goof they need to get the DSG. I like the fact that it can be turned off, but I can't blame VW for leaving it on from the factory.

The same arguments can be made for ESP. Especially on sports cars! If I am making a car, I make it so that it is safe. You should have the option to turn off such aids (without vag-com or the dealer..ie a button).

It is a mass produced automobile. The experienced driver gets some control taken away because of the inexperienced drivers and associated accidents. It is also a good way to CYA as an auto maker.

Safety features lower your insurance premiums as well.
 
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dweisel

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Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Stuff happens. At least he/she has that two seconds to figure out what the heck is going on.

If someone is that much of a goof they need to get the DSG. I like the fact that it can be turned off, but I can't blame VW for leaving it on from the factory.

The same arguments can be made for ESP. Especially on sports cars! If I am making a car, I make it so that it is safe. You should have the option to turn off such aids (without vag-com or the dealer..ie a button).

It is a mass produced automobile. The experienced driver gets some control taken away because of the inexperienced drivers and associated accidents. It is also a good way to CYA as an auto maker.

Safety features lower your insurance premiums as well.
I'm all for modern advancements and technology,but it does seem to keep lessening driver responsibility. With features like park assist, lane correction,automatic braking if you are following too close. Where does it end? I guess it doesn't. The biggest trouble I see in all these fail safe protections is that some drivers become dependant on these systems and complacent while driving.

As far as insurance goes. If drivers had to take full responsibilty for their actions and cover their own cost for damage they do in an accident.......................maybe driving would be a totally different experience than it is today. Some people totally rely on insurance coverage to cover their careless driving. So, who cares if they slam into your new car. ITS COVERED!

Just my "old school" thinking and values.
 

no-blue-screen

TDI Nut
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Feb 9, 2006
Location
Maryland
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TDI
I'm all for modern advancements and technology,but it does seem to keep lessening driver responsibility. With features like park assist, lane correction,automatic braking if you are following too close. Where does it end? I guess it doesn't. The biggest trouble I see in all these fail safe protections is that some drivers become dependent on these systems and complacent while driving.
I know we aren't supposed to talk political on here so I will not get into that. This is just like any other change....it happens gradually. It also happens under the guise of safety, health, or similar benefits that people wouldn't want to go against publicly. Then the foot is in the door...once that happens...it starts the process of being dependent on a system or technology.

It doesn't ever end until that day when you no longer have any control over your vehicle becomes evident. Then it is too late to do anything about it.
 
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Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
I'm all for modern advancements and technology,but it does seem to keep lessening driver responsibility. With features like park assist, lane correction,automatic braking if you are following too close. Where does it end? I guess it doesn't. The biggest trouble I see in all these fail safe protections is that some drivers become dependant on these systems and complacent while driving.

As far as insurance goes. If drivers had to take full responsibilty for their actions and cover their own cost for damage they do in an accident.......................maybe driving would be a totally different experience than it is today. Some people totally rely on insurance coverage to cover their careless driving. So, who cares if they slam into your new car. ITS COVERED!

Just my "old school" thinking and values.
Agreed.

To some extent, I believe that kids playing driving video games like "Need for Speed" with no concept of physics or reality are a problem on our public roads. Driving is not a game, it's not a right either, it's a privilege, it needs to be respected and earned. In the real world, mistakes made behind the wheel can have fatal consequences to innocent victims of others lack of judgement.
 

MyAvocation

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2017 Passat SEL TSI
I hear ya Niner... 3 weeks ago two cars simultaneously tried to change into the same expressway lane (I being one of them). The other driver did the classic noob 'hard swerve' over-reaction at 65 MPH. Knowing that dude would surely over-steer in the opposite direction, I nailed the go pedal. Sure enough he occupied all 4 lanes before spinning-out and onto the berm. Didn't look like there was an accident -- other than in his pants.
 

eatpasta

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Location
Santa Barbara, Ca
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2012 Passat
I used to hate it but I actually have grown to like it. You have to wait a second and then start letting out the clutch instead of sitting there and fighting the car.

Once you get the hang of it you can make some surprisingly smooth take offs on surprisingly steep hills.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
I used to hate it but I actually have grown to like it. You have to wait a second and then start letting out the clutch instead of sitting there and fighting the car.

Once you get the hang of it you can make some surprisingly smooth take offs on surprisingly steep hills.
Would you have such a nonsense device on your motorcycles, especially a harley or a Ducati, which don't even have reverse gears, do they? ;)

I thought so. Maybe uncoordinated people shouldn't be driving in the first place, being a hazard to all on the road, as they can't control their vehicles at all times.

Just my take on it, YMMV.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
It's another tool in my driving arsenal, just like ABS and halogen headlights. I don't need it, but I appreciate it.

With over 120,000 miles of driving a manual transmission I think I can count on one hand the number of times I had to use the parking brake when starting off on a steep hill. Guess I just have fast feet :)

-J
 

kjclow

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Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I guess I'm just old school and sorry if I am going to hurt anyone's feelings.BUT,hill assist and using the parking brake when starting out with a manual transmission on any hill no matter how steep is a crutch for not knowing how to use a clutch properly.
Reading through this thread I had the same thoughts. Only time I have ever used the parking brake for a hill hold was when trying to teach my daughter to drive the 5 speed beetle. Turned out the real problem was that she was in thrid instead of first.

Anyway, I like it with the dsg but have a question on how it operates with the manual. Once engaged, can you not release the clutch and then take your foot of the brake and the hill assist still hold? I know in my 82 subie, when I could get the hill assist to work, it would hold with my feet removed from all the pedals.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
It's another tool in my driving arsenal, just like ABS and halogen headlights. I don't need it, but I appreciate it.

With over 120,000 miles of driving a manual transmission I think I can count on one hand the number of times I had to use the parking brake when starting off on a steep hill. Guess I just have fast feet :)

-J
Oh come on... halogen my A$$, there's a set of HID's with with those LED tail lights, I know there is. You wouldn't do half the job of going Chinese on us, would you? :D You've gone MOD SQUAD on us.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Reading through this thread I had the same thoughts. Only time I have ever used the parking brake for a hill hold was when trying to teach my daughter to drive the 5 speed beetle. Turned out the real problem was that she was in thrid instead of first.

Anyway, I like it with the dsg but have a question on how it operates with the manual. Once engaged, can you not release the clutch and then take your foot of the brake and the hill assist still hold? I know in my 82 subie, when I could get the hill assist to work, it would hold with my feet removed from all the pedals.
Hill assist works PERFECTLY with the DSG tranny. It holds the brakes for 2 seconds on any grade over 5% and with the same force that is applied. In other words the harder you apply the brakes the more holding force the brakes will have. The problem I find with hill assist is that the brake releases at an unknown time. Unless you already have the clutch coming out with some pressure plate contact you can still rollback.Or you bring the clutch out to the point where it is partially engaged and you're running against the brakes. Guess my timing is just off???
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
With over 120,000 miles of driving a manual transmission I think I can count on one hand the number of times I had to use the parking brake when starting off on a steep hill. Guess I just have fast feet :)

-J
Sorry,but if you think it takes "fast feet" to correctly operate a clutch...........then you don't know how to work a clutch properly.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
:rolleyes: It takes fast feet to move from the brake to the clutch quickly enough on a hill to not roll into the car behind you...

-J
 

kjclow

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Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I usually use my left foot for the clutch and my right foot for the brake and accelerator. Don't think I've ever used the same foot for the brake and clutch.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
I usually use my left foot for the clutch and my right foot for the brake and accelerator. Don't think I've ever used the same foot for the brake and clutch.
You're right... I'm being lisdexic. Fast feet to move off the brake to the go pedal. :eek:
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Oh, I understand now! Had a friend years ago that drove a VW bus which did not like to keep running in Iowa winters. He used his left foot for the clutch and brake sine the right foot was always on the gas. If you let up for more than a few seconds, the thing would die. It was a real adventure riding with him!
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
:rolleyes: It takes fast feet to move from the brake to the clutch quickly enough on a hill to not roll into the car behind you...

-J
I guess you are still not understanding how a clutch operates if you still think it takes fast feet. If you use the clutch properly there is no rush to go from the brake to the fuel pedal. You will also not have 1 inch of rollback if the clutch is used properly. Its sad to say that lots of people do not fully understand how a clutch functions physically and therefore cannot operate a clutch properly.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
Do they not have hills or steep parking garage entrance ramps in West Virginia? If I'm stopped on a 15* ramp, like I often am in DC, and diddle dally around with the car in N, it will roll back into whatever is behind me. Ah, you might say "Just let the clutch out! The ECU will take care of it!" No... not on a hill that steep, the engine will stall. You need to give it some throttle. And how does one do that? Moving their foot quickly from the clutch to the go pedal :rolleyes:

-J
 
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