Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

Tom W. · Apr 19, 2010

Wow!

That is one seriously carboned up turbo!
If you can get the actuator moving, you're almost home.
It took me a couple hours of spraying into the exhaust side of the turbo w easy-off, exercising the actuator 20-30 times, letting it sit for an hour, and then repeating the process. I saw no improvement at all on the first try/first hour. It was on the 2nd try/ second hour that I could see improvement in the actuator's movement.

In my experiments w easy-off, It took about 3 hours for the easy-off to effectively de-carbon.

Heat definately helps.

London Luke · Apr 19, 2010

Thats one main advantage of the "innotec" system. You get a long tube etc to make life a lot easier !

daddy469 · Apr 19, 2010

dieselfuel said:
daddy,

Your intake system needs cleaned, just do it! You won't be sorry. You'll love the new found power.

You may pick up a couple of mpg, but check the coolant temp in the coolant tank.

Drive your car to operating max temp. Then use a stainless steel meat thermometer and take a temp reading at the coolant tank.

SLOWLY remove the coolant tank cap to relieve any built-up pressure. Then, insert the ss meat thermometer into the coolant. You should get a reading of 190F, give or take 5F.

If you get a reading under 180F, you have a faulty thermostat. That can cost you a 15-25% hit in mpg.

Let us know what you find out. Good luck!

An excellent suggestion that I took about 15,000 miles ago

. I also just replaced the temp sensor as well due to that strange VAG code about coolant temp sensor intermittent or something. I'm going to do the meat thermometer thingy tho because it sounds 'fun'. At the moment the MPG isn't a problem, it is a symptom.

I'm doing my best not to x-post, but I just want to say thanks for everyones' suggestions. tdiclub.com rocks and that is a verifiable fact. My glove had a very small hole in it that I didn't notice until after my fingertip had been soaking in EO for over an hour. I would show ya'all a pic, but it is super gross. Lesson learned here: Even if they are new, rubber gloves still need to hold air or don't use 'em

There are still some next steps and I'll never give up because I love that car.

Daddy

skatanic · Apr 19, 2010

everyone seems to be asking for some pictures...

This is the downpipe, with the turbo on the right side of the picture. Two of the nuts are visible, with one on the other side of the pipe

VWBeamer · Apr 22, 2010

Going to try this this weekend on my recently acquired 2004 , only 77K on it, but I bought it from a older gentleman who babied it . It has no power when compared to my 2001.

No CEL, think this is my problem?

srmichi · Apr 22, 2010

well after reading about this I finaly decide to clean my turbo. I knew my dad never really push it because I rarely heard to turbo while he drove it so I this past weekend and I found out I need new actuator as it slowly lost vacuum. I went on with the cleanning and from 1/4-1/2 movement it now moves full range. I also found out that oven cleaner reacts 20 times worst on skingrafted skin than on normal skin. (as I got some on my finger that had a graft on it and the graft part melted) Anyways I can't wait to replace the actuator on sat and see how much more better it will run.

dieselfuel · Apr 22, 2010

Good luck, srmichi.

Sorry to hear about the skin graf... :>(

dieselfuel · Apr 22, 2010

TomW,

I'm getting ready to clean my cataytic converter with E.O. I'm going to drill a hole in the cc , but need some way of plugging the hole. Got any ideas...?

I'm trying to find where to buy a putty product called Durabond 7032. It's high temp up to 2000F.

J-B Weld is good for 500F. Think that is high enough?

I also thought about using a self-tapping sheet metal screw. Think that would be re-usable? In otherwords, use the self-tapping screw. Un-screw it. Spray in the E.O. Then, re-install the screw.

I'm wanting to get a new DP, so if this doesn't work out, I'm not really out anything. This give me a chance to try something maybe we can all learn from. :>)

dellwas · Apr 23, 2010

Might work, but not so sure if spraying the E.O. directly into the catalytic converter would be the way to go. Now I know what you're thinking, E.O. gets blown through the converter from the turbo cleaning, right? Bear in mind though, that it is probably weakened by the time it hits the converter, and it is being forced through the system by exhaust gas, it doesn't have time to sit on the platinum surfaces of the converter. Pure speculation, on my part, but I'm not so sure I'd want to clean a converter with it.

Tried a google search on cleaning catalytic converter and quite a few posts showed up with a mild solution of citric acid having good effects. On sealing the hole. There is a product called Devcon that might do the trick. Stuff is incredibly strong, it is used to make new teeth on gears, among other things. Don't know about heat, but it holds in extreme cold. Years ago I punctured a refrigerant tube and used it seal the hole. Refrigerant guy who put in the freon thought I was daft. However, he changed his tune after he came back after it was frost covered and still holding. He wanted to know where to get it. Mine came courtesy of the Armed Forces, they used it by the case load at the dockyard.

http://www.devcon.com/

dieselfuel said:
TomW,

I'm getting ready to clean my cataytic converter with E.O. I'm going to drill a hole in the cc , but need some way of plugging the hole. Got any ideas...?

I'm trying to find where to buy a putty product called Durabond 7032. It's high temp up to 2000F.

J-B Weld is good for 500F. Think that is high enough?

I also thought about using a self-tapping sheet metal screw. Think that would be re-usable? In otherwords, use the self-tapping screw. Un-screw it. Spray in the E.O. Then, re-install the screw.

I'm wanting to get a new DP, so if this doesn't work out, I'm not really out anything. This give me a chance to try something maybe we can all learn from. :>)

dieselfuel · Apr 23, 2010

Thank you for the insight.

dellwas · Apr 23, 2010

You're welcome, keep us informed if you try the E.O. and it works!

dieselfuel said:
Thank you for the insight.

Tom W. · Apr 23, 2010

Wow!

dieselfuel said:
TomW,

I'm getting ready to clean my cataytic converter with E.O. I'm going to drill a hole in the cc , but need some way of plugging the hole. Got any ideas...?

I'm trying to find where to buy a putty product called Durabond 7032. It's high temp up to 2000F.

J-B Weld is good for 500F. Think that is high enough?

I also thought about using a self-tapping sheet metal screw. Think that would be re-usable? In otherwords, use the self-tapping screw. Un-screw it. Spray in the E.O. Then, re-install the screw.

I'm wanting to get a new DP, so if this doesn't work out, I'm not really out anything. This give me a chance to try something maybe we can all learn from. :>)

WOW! Well since you're planning on getting a DP anyway.......

I do know that catalytic converters in gassers get really, really hot- I would guess that it is the same for diesel catalytic converters. So Yes, JBWeld wouldn't hold. A sheet metal screw would hold, especiallly if it is sealed wth some of the same mastic/epoxy from an exhaust repair kit- durabond 7032 sounds perfect.

Gasser catalytic converters seldom clog,-they are suprisingly robust. and when they do it is usually for the same reason a diesel cc would clog- carbon build up( usually form stuck rings or bad valve stem seals-oil leakage), which overwhelms the platinum/rhodinium/etc catalyst.

This catalyst material is in a honeycomb matrix inside the cc so you would have to introduce the easy-off (or some other chemical cleaner) just before the cc. If you drill into the cc itself, the chemical won't reach anything other than the immediate little honeycomb area you drilled into.

I would think that the issue with easy-off is that it is quite viscus(thick) which is one reason it works so well in the exhaust side of a turbo- it clings to the surface, but my suspicion is that it is also so thick that it would not do a very good job penetrating the tiny holes in the honeycome matirx of the cc.

When we use eo in a turbo, it combines with the carbon, oil, and other gunk and liquifies the gunk, essentially turning into a kind of soap.

There is enough exhaust pressure to blow this soap residue thru the catylitic converter.

I would think that if I were going to clean a cc, I would do it the same way we clean intercoolers- pull the cc,
plug one end of it, pour in some kind of degreaser-

2000BEETLETDI · Apr 23, 2010

Guys,

this is probably the absolute best thread that I have read on this website! I actually copied and pasted a number of things into a word docutment "cheat sheet" so I didnt have to search all 300+ posts. I am still fighting a low boost problem, I have replaced the n75 and all vac lines. I did gain some boost, but still not as strong as my brothers. I did by a Mity Vac, harbor freight model, but hey its better than what I had, to test the actuator. I do believe though I am going to do the EO turbo clean. couple questions I didnt see answered. Does anyone know the size of the nuts that hold the down pipe to the turbo. I heard one mention of 13 MM, but nobody ever verified that. IS that what size they are? Also, sounds like I will loose the e clip to the actuator arm also. does anyone know what size that is and is it truely an E clip or a snap ring?

Thanks,
Scott

Ausgezeichnet TDi · Apr 23, 2010

Scott,

Where are you located? I'd be willing to lend a hand if you're not that far away. I can't remember but I think they were 13mm. The one closest to the engine was fun, I used a 1/4 inch driver, long 1/4 in extension, and snaked through coolant lines to get it off...definitely not the most fun thing to do but worthwhile in the end. Make sure you spray some Kroil/PB Blaster on those nuts a day or couple hours before you start taking them off. It is a circlip that attaches the turbo onto the arm, but you don't need to take it off when cleaning the turbo unless it is really stuck. When cleaning, just apply vacuum to the actuator to cycle the vanes open and closed. MAKE SURE TO BUY HEAVY DUTY GLOVES, WEAR CRAPPY CLOTHES, AND WEAR EYE PROTECTION! This stuff is not brake cleaner, it will eat your skin!

2000BEETLETDI said:
Guys,

this is probably the absolute best thread that I have read on this website! I actually copied and pasted a number of things into a word docutment "cheat sheet" so I didnt have to search all 300+ posts. I am still fighting a low boost problem, I have replaced the n75 and all vac lines. I did gain some boost, but still not as strong as my brothers. I did by a Mity Vac, harbor freight model, but hey its better than what I had, to test the actuator. I do believe though I am going to do the EO turbo clean. couple questions I didnt see answered. Does anyone know the size of the nuts that hold the down pipe to the turbo. I heard one mention of 13 MM, but nobody ever verified that. IS that what size they are? Also, sounds like I will loose the e clip to the actuator arm also. does anyone know what size that is and is it truely an E clip or a snap ring?

Thanks,
Scott

Pcar993 · Apr 23, 2010

2000BEETLETDI said:
Guys,

Also, sounds like I will loose the e clip to the actuator arm also. does anyone know what size that is and is it truely an E clip or a snap ring?

Thanks,
Scott

I did not have to remove my e-clip. Try moving it with your hands first. It will be tough to move because of the actuator.

saskboi · Apr 26, 2010

Hi,

So I did the second EO... this time I was able to let it sit for around 5hrs... spraying some more and moving the acuator every 30mins... the results were great (temporarily).. the car had way more power than when I bought it, I could actually here the whistle of the turbo again and no limp mode.

The next day I went for a drive in the morning - no issues. Then in the afternoon I went to leave the city for a 600km drive home and it felt like it went into limp mode... checked the vac lines visually and didn't see anything (I changed them 2 weeks ago) however, turning the ignition on and off worked for the odd pass but not every one.

I noticed that if I come to a complete stop and start in 1st, floor it, I get boost at 3-3,500rpm, then through the gears all the way into 5th... then no boost, even if I downshift and get the revs high. Then if I slow down, start in 1st again the same thing happens. Any suggestions?? Possible vac leak? I cleaned the turbo with EO, replaced vac lines and everything was great... temporarily.

Thanks.

Tom W. · Apr 27, 2010

do the diagnostics!

saskboi said:
Hi,

So I did the second EO... this time I was able to let it sit for around 5hrs... spraying some more and moving the acuator every 30mins... the results were great (temporarily).. the car had way more power than when I bought it, I could actually here the whistle of the turbo again and no limp mode.

The next day I went for a drive in the morning - no issues. Then in the afternoon I went to leave the city for a 600km drive home and it felt like it went into limp mode... checked the vac lines visually and didn't see anything (I changed them 2 weeks ago) however, turning the ignition on and off worked for the odd pass but not every one.

I noticed that if I come to a complete stop and start in 1st, floor it, I get boost at 3-3,500rpm, then through the gears all the way into 5th... then no boost, even if I downshift and get the revs high. Then if I slow down, start in 1st again the same thing happens. Any suggestions?? Possible vac leak? I cleaned the turbo with EO, replaced vac lines and everything was great... temporarily.

Thanks.

You should be getting boost at 1500-2000 RPM.
couple things come to mind:
FIRST!!!!!
Do the diagnostic as per canadiangrizzly!
SECOND: If you cannot find the problem, than maybe check the adjustment of your actuator- it should start moving around 3Hg and be fully extended at 18Hg

RacerTodd · Apr 28, 2010

Just did the chemical clean procedure and wanted to share my experience.

Some background: Did a VCDS log of requested vs. actual boost last year. I saw boost spiking too high, dropping below requested then bouncing back up. Classic signs of gummed up VNT vanes. Did the N75 output test and saw the actuator level only moving about 1/4". No surprise as the previous owner was a 55-year-old guy who probably drove it like, well, like a 55-year-old guy.
This was before this chemical cleaning thread appeared so I pulled the turbo in order to open it up and clean out the vanes. Unfortunately, my turbo was one of the stubborn ones and resisted all efforts to open it up.
By moving the lever back and forth I got it to break through the gunk and move down to the stop. When pulling it down, it briefly stuck then continued to the stop.
Re-installed the turbo and ran some logs. Boost graph was better, still peaked a bit high but was better controlled.

Then a week or so ago I was running hard up an onramp when, bang, I got limp mode. Checked the actuator travel - about 1/8". Ugh. I regularly exercise the turbo hard so I'm a bit puzzled about why it decided to clog up.

So I did the Easy Off cleaning this weekend.

I decided to do this through the EGR port. I've deleted the EGR cooler so accessing the EGR blockoff plate is super easy compared to getting the downpipe off.
One difficulty in using the EGR port is that it isn't easy to get the can of Easy Off aimed into the relatively small port. And you don't want to end up spraying lye all over the place.

I solved this by getting a 2-foot length of 3/4" O.D. clear plastic tubing from the local hardware store.
I inserted one end in the EGR port as far as it would go (about 1.5"). The other end I ran up and forward over the engine cover. Put the nozzle of the can right up against the tubing and pressed the button. The Easy Off flowed right down the tubing and into the EGR port and thence into the turbo.

After several cycles of spraying Easy Off, moving the actuator and waiting I was able to get the lever back to hitting the stop, albeit with the same bit of stickyness it had before. Logs are back to where they were last year.
Not sure why I can't get it back to perfect, I assume that the easy driving of the previous owner resulted in some of the carbon hardening into diamond. Still, it's back to normal (at least for my car) and it only took a $5 gasket, a $5 can of Easy Off and $1.50 worth of tubing.

If anyone would like to use my "tubing down the EGR port" method, I'll offer these observations:

1. Maximum outside diameter for the tubing is 3/4". Any larger and it won't fit in the EGR port. 1/2" inch tubing would probably work, I wouldn't want to go smaller as you want to ensure the spray of Easy Off doesn't splash back on you. You could use heater hose as well. The lye didn't seem to affect the clear PVC tubing I used.

2. When spraying, ensure the the tubing is angled downwards so the liquid flows down the tubing and doesn't flow back out out the end. Wear gloves anyway, just to be safe.

3. Place a towel or a piece of newspaper on the engine cover. This will allow you to rest the end of the tubing on the towel or newspaper while you are exercising the actuator and keep any Easy Off drips from getting onto the engine cover.

4. Every time you switch back to spraying Easy Off after waiting, ensure that the tubing hasn't fallen out of the port.

5. When removing the tubing after completing the procedure, I used a paper towel in my (gloved) right hand to cover the end of the tubing. I held a paper towel in my (also gloved) left hand, reached around to the EGR port and gently pulled the tubing out while covering the end of the tubing with the paper towel. I then carefully removed the tubing from the engine compartment. Your goal while removing the tubing is to prevent any Easy Off in the tubing from dripping all over the engine compartment or paint.

5. The tubing procedure likely will work on an engine with the EGR cooler in place, assuming you can get the cooler disconnected and out of the way enough to get the tubing inserted.

mark denehy · Apr 29, 2010

MSDS and chemical cleaners

All companies making and selling hazardous chemicals are legally obliged to provide a MSDS (Material safety data Sheet). This will give details of their chemical composition and reactions and things like solubility. I requested and quickly recieved from innotec for their 3 stage turbo cleaning kit. I have also googled MSDS and easy off products as well as some oven cleaning products available in the UK. They are all available usually as pdf files. Its a good way to match an oven cleaner to the innotec purpose made stuff or generally decide if you want to use a cleaner that is for example less effective but doesn't react with aluminium or copper. Alternatively you may want to choose something that dissolves in water for a final wash out. I did see for example that one of the UK products advertises 'scrubbing action' and on looking at the MSDS it looks to be down to the Cristobalite they put in. This looks to be a form of quartz. Might give that one a miss.
Hope this is of help. fantastic site and one of the deciding factors in owning and running a Skoda Octavia Tdi is the wealth of knowledge available here.
Thanks
Mark

MarCn · Apr 29, 2010

mark denehy said:
All companies making and selling hazardous chemicals are legally obliged to provide a MSDS (Material safety data Sheet). This will give details of their chemical composition and reactions and things like solubility. I requested and quickly recieved from innotec for their 3 stage turbo cleaning kit. I have also googled MSDS and easy off products as well as some oven cleaning products available in the UK. They are all available usually as pdf files. Its a good way to match an oven cleaner to the innotec purpose made stuff or generally decide if you want to take levitra how to take viagra. This looks to be a form of quartz. Might give that one a miss.
Hope this is of help. fantastic site and one of the deciding factors in owning and running a Skoda Octavia Tdi is the wealth of knowledge available here.
Thanks
Mark use a cleaner that is for example less effective but doesn't react with aluminium or copper. Alternatively you may want to choose something that dissolves in water for a final wash out. I did see for example that one of the UK products advertises 'scrubbing action' and on looking at the MSDS it looks to be down to the Cristobalite they put in

I think chemical cleaning is better than removal

Tom W. · Apr 29, 2010

RacerTod

Wow! excellent post/write up! Very clear, precise description- this helps everyone on this forum!

Questions: How long did you let the Easy-Off work- per cycle? Altogether?

Did you spin the turbo to sling the Easy-Off around?

VWBeamer · Apr 29, 2010

Did the EO mod this last weekend. I bought my 04 wagen from a very nice 74 yr old , so I figured the carboned up turbo was my problem.

I did get a slight increase in boost, but now I have what i think is a boost leak. I hear a swoosh sound coming from the pass side. I sure the intercooler or such is leaking.

Going to look at it today.

Might have to do a second app. No CEL, car is just slow.

RacerTodd · Apr 29, 2010

Tom W. said:
Wow! excellent post/write up! Very clear, precise description- this helps everyone on this forum!

Questions: How long did you let the Easy-Off work- per cycle? Altogether?

Did you spin the turbo to sling the Easy-Off around?

Let it sit for 30-45 minutes or so per cycle, did 5 or 6 cycles.

Couldn't spin the turbo as I only had the EGR plate off. That is one disadvantage of the EGR port method. On the other hand, using the EGR port results in the Easy Off entering the turbo right on top of the VNT vanes. I guess each method has it advantages and disadvantages.

dieselfuel · May 4, 2010

O.K., I'm not going to try to clean the cc. Sorry guys.

I only have a set of poly-ramp to get the car up into the air. It's not high enough for me to get a good angle to drill a pilot hole for the self-tapping ss screw. And, there's just not a lot of pipe on the front-side of the cc to drill on.

I'm sure the cc can be cleaned with E.O. if the need arises. I took a nozzles off a can of brake cleaner that uses a "straw" and it fit onto the Easy Off can. It sprayed nicely.

And, another way, may be to load up the EO through an EGR block off plate and tap the starter to push it through the exhaust system a little bit. I bet if you did this with a whole can of EO, it would work it's way into the cat.

And, to be honest, my car runs better than when it was new (I'm the original owner). It has never ran as strong as it is running now. It seems as though it's been "mildly tuned" (it hasn't). So, I doubt that the cc is clogged.

Sorry for the let down, guys.

Tom W. · May 5, 2010

I think it's wise

Glad to hear you're TDI is running so well!
And, glad to hear you re not going to do the cc. My suspicion- backed up by my personal experience- is that the cc is best left alone, and that with the new cleaner diesel fuel, the cc will stay clean on a properly maintained vehicle.

dieselfuel said:
O.K., I'm not going to try to clean the cc. Sorry guys.

I only have a set of poly-ramp to get the car up into the air. It's not high enough for me to get a good angle to drill a pilot hole for the self-tapping ss screw. And, there's just not a lot of pipe on the front-side of the cc to drill on.

I'm sure the cc can be cleaned with E.O. if the need arises. I took a nozzles off a can of brake cleaner that uses a "straw" and it fit onto the Easy Off can. It sprayed nicely.

And, another way, may be to load up the EO through an EGR block off plate and tap the starter to push it through the exhaust system a little bit. I bet if you did this with a whole can of EO, it would work it's way into the cat.

And, to be honest, my car runs better than when it was new (I'm the original owner). It has never ran as strong as it is running now. It seems as though it's been "mildly tuned" (it hasn't). So, I doubt that the cc is clogged.

Sorry for the let down, guys.

harry3 · May 12, 2010

A ? about actuator travel

Well I read all the posts on this thread today. I checked the travel on my actuator and it seems that I can pull it down all the way to the stop but after I let it bounce back(let it go) I am able to push it up a 1/8" to 1/4" more. Does this sound like the thing needs cleaning?
PS- I did check to see if I could brake loose the 3 nuts on the dp and I did get all 3 loose. Thanks to all who took the time and efort to share!!!

Tom W. · May 13, 2010

harry3

Are you experiencing any symptons? Lack of power/boost, limp mode, codes thrown, etc?

Great that you could loosen the 3 nuts on your down pipe- It would benefit you to coat the threads liberally with some anti-sieze before tightening them back up......

harry3 said:
Well I read all the posts on this thread today. I checked the travel on my actuator and it seems that I can pull it down all the way to the stop but after I let it bounce back(let it go) I am able to push it up a 1/8" to 1/4" more. Does this sound like the thing needs cleaning?
PS- I did check to see if I could brake loose the 3 nuts on the dp and I did get all 3 loose. Thanks to all who took the time and efort to share!!!

harry3 · May 13, 2010

[Are you experiencing any symptons? Lack of power/boost, limp mode, codes thrown, etc?/QUOTE]
Yes some times I go into limp mode. This car is new to me (3 months). I plane on cleaning the intake soon. I thought I would start there. I cleaned the snow screen yeasterday. It was pretty bad. I may have more power know but not sure. The limp mode does not hapen that often mostly after say a 40 min. drive and after 3000 rpm. The actuator is holding vacum. The intake was cleaned about 75k miles ago. I have not drove the car much since I cleaned the snow screen. I will put some antisize on the nuts.

Pcar993 · May 16, 2010

I think my brother's vnt17 is sticking again

We dont understand how it can get clogged so quickly. He doesnt baby his engine either.

Tom W. · May 17, 2010

sticky vnt-17- more info

Pcar993 said:
I think my brother's vnt17 is sticking again We dont understand how it can get clogged so quickly. He doesnt baby his engine either.

What is he driving?

Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

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