Injection pump

chemglider

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Location
Elk Grove, Ca
TDI
1981 Pickup
That makes sense. I saw another 1.6 L turbo diesel pickup that did not have the diafram on top. The same guy has another 1.9 L turbo diesel that does have the diaphram on top. I asked him about it and he said the 1.6 L without the diaphram seemed to run fine. I'm not sure as to the year of my engine, I believe it is somewhere arounf 1982-1984. The engine numbers are: CY 114 084. Does the "084" stand for the year? Thanks again for your reply.
 

timeline

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Location
Fort Atkinson, WI
TDI
2002 Jetta waggon TDI
My IP is starting to leak at the top. Had a hammer mod done about three years ago. Could a new upper seal fix this?
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Leaking/seeping from the seam, where the top cover attaches?
Yeah; top cover seal. Need key 2 remove cover.
Larry
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
timeline, dieselgeek (jim royston) sells everything for that, including the metalnerd tool.
 

dalek

Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Gainesville, FL
TDI
None
I was reading this thread and am trying to make sense of the information (hard thing to do on Mondays or Fridays, I know). The TDI pump's mechanical part will fuel each injector as it passes through it, but the electronic part is there to do the fine adjustment (advancing, retarding, adding more fuel). Am I correct so far? Now, the computer uses engine sensors + air flow info + pedal position to decide what to do.

Does the computer know about engine timing? Does it need to? I mean, if it decides to increase fuel deliver, it could decide to do so on *all* cylinders so it would not really need to worry about which cylinder it is adding more fuel. But, if it does care about the engine timing, how? Is there a crank position sensor or something that will tell the computer where the engine is? Or, perhaps it gets this info as feedback from the pump itself?

As you can figure out, I do not know that much about TDI. :D
 
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l_c

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Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
The system depends on having the static timing preset mechanically.
There's a needle lift sensor on #3, used to dynamically adapt.
Larry
 

dalek

Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Gainesville, FL
TDI
None
So, technically if I feed fuel to the pump (and the shutoff valve energized so it is open) and spin it at some speed, theoretically it should inject fuel regardless of everything else. I am not saying it will be precise or whatever, but it will spit fuel 4 times per revolution because it does not know any better.

If it spins faster, does that mean it will spit more fuel or just the same amount per revolution but faster (higher rpm)?

Do tell me more about the needle lift sensor; how does it work?
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Re: Fuel quantity etc.

dalek, I'd say you ought to explore the very beginning of this (very same) forum thread --
http://forums.tdiclub.com/printthread.php?t=45870&pp=100
Noting the Distributor Head ... Fuel Collar ... etc.

I don't claim to understand much about how this pump works.
But there are a lot of forum posts around the 'net, with information about this pump.

Better yet, look for the Bosch manual of the VE pump, from the 'net.
Here are a couple of links ... the first one I've verified does work (it's a 5.5 MB file, give it some time):
http://www.dieselbookmarks.com/bombers/VEPump.pdf
The 2nd source (of the same exact file) is still working (just takes a lot longer) --
http://www.teamkorhonen.com/~dbwarrior/peugeot/BoschFuelInjectionPumpTypeVE2.pdf

I don't know whether this document has also been stored in our pics.tdiclub.com server ... I just looked there, couldn't find it.
Also, http://forums.tdiclub.com/printthread.php?t=238872&pp=100

(* Edit *)
And about the Needle Lift Sensor, it's shown on this page --
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/multi/TDInozzleFAQ.htm

Also, see here --
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/TDI_diagnostics.html


NOTE: In our TDIs we also have an engine Speed Sensor (which I believe is also the same as "Crank Position" sensor ... also called "crank angle" sensor?).
I'm guessing that this (ALH ... MkIV) type of TDI engine doesn't need a Camshaft position sensor.
Probably all it really needs (for control of the injection pump, i.e. timing) is the #3 Needle Lift sensor, and the engine speed sensor.

There's an Injection Quantity or Injected Quantity (IQ) adjustment, but I don't really know how it works.
Aside from the "Hammer Mod", there's a Requested fuel quantity, that the ECM manages.

If your needle lift sensor isn't working or isn't available to the ECM, I believe the engine runs all right but you're in limp mode.
Larry
 
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dalek

Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Gainesville, FL
TDI
None
Thanks for all the info, Larry. So the #3 Needle Lift sensor I is a bit of a feedback system, telling the pump when the injector actually opened so it can compare that to when it thought it was going to open and adjust as needed. That also sounds like it is used to compensate for crap getting into the injectors, different fuel, and so on. It really reminds me of how the gas VWs (and other cars) adjust timing based on the knock sensor, which means they too can compensate somewhat for bad fuel and other conditions. Very impressive. So, theoretically -- focusing only on the pump itself -- if you want to forgo that fine tuning feature (and probably some efficiency), you could run the system without that signal.
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Yeah I believe it would run.
One can try disconnecting it. When you're cranking the engine to start up, some of these features are not being used.
 

Losha

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Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG, 2001 Golf TDI, Audi S6, A8, Toureg
I haven't try to disconnect #3 injector and see if it would fire up. By its system design that if when #3 injector fails the ECU will run in safe program where fuel & timing are at default setting and the engine would/will run at less performance.

edit: Here is the link to very good clear explanation on how TDI engine controlled by electronic sensors. http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/tdi-technik-eng.pdf
 
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series1000

Active member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Location
vancouver
TDI
01 Golf TDI
Thanks, found it in diagram 4/8, I should be able to interupt the ground side with a small swich as an engine kill right? has anyone done this before?
Ps. not tryin to hijack the thread!
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
series1000 said:
Thanks, found it in diagram 4/8, I should be able to interupt the ground side with a small swich as an engine kill right? has anyone done this before?
Ps. not tryin to hijack the thread!
You can do this - but it won't always kill the engine instantly. The RPM's will fall and the ECU still thinks the engine is trying to maintain 903 RPM so it will try and deliver more fuel. It will pump fuel out of the case of the pump to keep the engine running even though the fuel shutoff solenoid is closed.

It may kill right away, it may run for 3-10 more seconds, it may run for a couple minutes.

Somehow you need to tell the ECU to stop delivering fuel without cycling the ignition switch. I have not figured out how to do this.
 

series1000

Active member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Location
vancouver
TDI
01 Golf TDI
Ah, so it would be better to re rute the ignition power through a large relay activated by the switch, switch off = no power at all( no dash lights ect) like shutting the key off.
 

series1000

Active member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Location
vancouver
TDI
01 Golf TDI
Lol, sorry I wasnt being clear of my intentions but I am wanting to wire in a kill switch so that I can disable the car when im gone and no one else can start it unless they find the "hidden" switch.
 

l_c

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
No, you're right, it'd be good to mount a hidden, key-activated switch that'd disable electrical operation or start-up. I wonder whether you can gate either the power supply or one of the critical signals to the ECM, instead? Or, the control of the Relay 109? I bet if a critical signal is left open, then the car will not run at all. Larry
 

l_c

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Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
San Jose, CA USA
TDI
Wrecked and gone: VW Jetta wagon 2002 silver TDI
Yes (same thing as Speed Sensor, I think);
plus, we have the Injector #3 Needle Lift sensor.
I don't think that losing either of those will prevent the engine from running.
Also, during start-up (cranking), not all of the sensors are ready & available i.e. used by the ECM. Larry
 

scooterbob65

New member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
tn
TDI
80 vw rabbit
Injector pump problem 1.5

whats wrong?
Just put rebuilt head on rabbit p/u purchased couple years ago. was setting in field for a few years prior to buying.
installed rebuilt head, belted up, getting fuel to I pump and have overflow through return lines, have turned engine over several times and cannot get fuel to go through the injector pump to injectors. have small amount seeping at 2 injector lines at injector, can hear fuel cut off valve clicking. tank had fuel in it, added some fresh fuel and some diesel cleaner.
any suggestions?
Bob
 
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