DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

The GTL fuel may still be usable. Not bio yet but hopefully BTL will grow into it.

more results:

At 3500 or so miles, CEL came on during hard throttle (4k rpm), as well as the glow plug flasher, which put the car in limp mode until restarted. The CEL did not stay on, but came on again later that day, code P0087. Looked it up and says 'low rail pressure', which would point towards a clogged fuel filter. It has been 45-50 at nights, and the B100 we are using has a cloud point of 45, so it's possible I've got some gelling issues. I'm going to use the rest of the tank, replace the fuel filter, then use Diesel 911 just to be safe, then run a tank of diesel. We are getting some colder-weather B100, should go down to 30F, hopefully next week.

Let's hope you're right about the fuel filter. Contamination of the rail-pressure control valve (a solenoid valve) can cause this same issue...

BeetleGo said:

That's not OT Indigo. That's spot on. These new diesels really should be able to run upto B100 so that they continued to prove to people that we CAN skip the petro version of diesel AND gas.

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I've encountered folks from the National Biodiesel Board several times in the last months at various events. Each time I suggest that by failing to mount serious pressure on manufacturers to design for standards-compliant Biodiesel as an approved fuel, they are sowing the seeds of Biodiesel's 'demise' - or at least conceding that it will be on the fringes for another decade.

Is there any doubt that a working combination of fuel specs and emissions equipment could be readily developed? It seems from this thread that tweaking the parameters on the cycle that burns off the residues on the particle filter or simply changing the parameters that throw the codes triggering the CEL would probably put the issue to bed.

But that's only possible if the manufacturers are stakeholders in the process. Until such time, good business practice inclines them to continue to narrow the specs on any input to the vehicle - fuel, lubricants, refrigerant, coolant etc so they can sell in CA and brag about green-ness (nevermind it makes it even harder to use renewable fuels!). That's how we end up with the current version of BlueTec.

If Mfr's had a reason - public pressure (which depends on awareness) or governmental pressure (fiscal incentives or regulatory requirements), then we wouldn't be forced to run experiments at risk of personal expense like Neurot here in order to figure out on our own if Biodiesel has a near-term future. Thanks again, Neurot!

Neurot,

Can you confirm the dealer put 507.00 oil in the car when they did the post B100 oil change? If they did not, which many idiot dealers are doing with the new 09's, it will contaminate your test considerably. Apologize if this has already been pointed out, I just skimmed the last few pages and didn't see any mention of it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the dealer put 505.01 in.

I just caught up with this thread and will continue to watch it very carefully.

If the CRs can't run B99/100, then I'll won't be buying one...I'll just keep my 2002 running until the wheels fall off. If none can run it then, I'll rebuild the thing from the ground up if I have to.

I will be watching this one closely as well. I commend Jason for doing this in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be able to rely on VW or other auto mfr to do the R&D on biodiesel, especially in our current economic climate. What we all need is people like Jason who are willing to determine what problems may arise, then work toward a solution if possible. This is relevant for all modern diesel vehicles with the new emissions equipment.

I think it's a big risk and one that I am not willing to take, but sometimes I get flamed as being against biod use and that is not the case at all.

I look forward to seeing the UOA from blackstone because I am not convinced the dealer is in a position to state the oil is diluted with biod based on the diagnostics they have done.

The problem with 1st gen Biodiesel is it is VERY unstable at the temps found in the Common Rail systems. 2nd Gen fuels (Bio-GTL) to date (aside from conventional diesel) are the only fuels stable enough to handle the heat of the new systems.

I'd hate to see the inside of a rail and injector using Biodiesel, the varnish and gums that form can easily damage or clog the system and the miriad of pressure sensors and metering holes.

DB

Drivbiwire said:

The problem with 1st gen Biodiesel is it is VERY unstable at the temps found in the Common Rail systems. 2nd Gen fuels (Bio-GTL) to date (aside from conventional diesel) are the only fuels stable enough to handle the heat of the new systems.

I'd hate to see the inside of a rail and injector using Biodiesel, the varnish and gums that form can easily damage or clog the system and the miriad of pressure sensors and metering holes.

DB

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DBW, are you still waiting for 2nd gen biofuels? They're not here yet.

Perhaps you may want to applaude and encourage people like the OP who actually take the risk and try new things. I'd hate to see mincing, fraidy-cat people (to paraphrase TMQ) clog and damage the diesel world. Give it a break, and let the rest of us take the plunge.

As much as Pete can read a little like the prophet of doom and gloom, BTDT. I posted a few years back re. a lacquer-like contamination of the pressure-control valve in one of my CR- engines following some bio useage...

Drivbiwire said:

The problem with 1st gen Biodiesel is it is VERY unstable at the temps found in the Common Rail systems. 2nd Gen fuels (Bio-GTL) to date (aside from conventional diesel) are the only fuels stable enough to handle the heat of the new systems.

I'd hate to see the inside of a rail and injector using Biodiesel, the varnish and gums that form can easily damage or clog the system and the miriad of pressure sensors and metering holes.

DB

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You keep making this claim, but no evidence exists.

The CRD is the worse possible diesel fuel system to try to test BIO in...

The fuel rail does not like BIO...May it be a 2L CRD or a Cummins CRD..

The variation of the viscosities of the BIO is going to play heck on the computer to try to hold the rail pressures with in spec. you will see this as it gets cold and temps change the viscosity.

Is there an audible difference in the engine from the fuel in colder weather? I bet that fuel pump is a squealing.

I have seen the fuel feed orifices in the PD injectors clogged by BIO, to the cost of $400 a piece- all four...The 2L CRD is alot higher tech engine then the PD's.

Mach1 said:

The CRD is the worse possible diesel fuel system to try to test BIO in...

The fuel rail does not like BIO...May it be a 2L CRD or a Cummins CRD..

The variation of the viscosities of the BIO is going to play heck on the computer to try to hold the rail pressures with in spec. you will see this as it gets cold and temps change the viscosity.

Is there an audible difference in the engine from the fuel in colder weather? I bet that fuel pump is a squealing.

I have seen the fuel feed orifices in the PD injectors clogged by BIO, to the cost of $400 a piece- all four...The 2L CRD is alot higher tech engine then the PD's.

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Do you have a plot of viscosity vs temp for ULSD and B100? I've looked around for such info, but can't seem to find it. Everything I've seen indicates that B100 falls within the spec range for ULSD.

rodneyh1 said:

Do you have a plot of viscosity vs temp for ULSD and B100? I've looked around for such info, but can't seem to find it. Everything I've seen indicates that B100 falls within the spec range for ULSD.

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That may or may not be true at room temperature, but it's obviously not the case at low temps.

Check out this web site for Biodiesel viscosities at 40 Deg C.

http://www.brevardbiodiesel.org/viscosity.html

Please note: This thread has to do with the car in question, NOT a discussion of whether or where to find out more about biodiesel use. That's a seperate thread~!

~BeetleGo

Rodney- there is such a variation in BIO types, viscosity, make-up. Just pick a blend(no two are the same). temp has a huge effect on bio viscosity.

Search the net about which fuel systems can tolerant Bio..One of the best is the old mechanical systems, with so much slop in the clearances of the pumps/injectors and minimum injection pressures.

A happier and maybe just luckier 09 Jetta TDI result

I've had a little better luck than Jason. I make my own BD (Biopro190 has fed my F350 TDI for a year), and have had an 09 Jetta Wagon TDI for three months. After 14,000 miles, no engine light, oil overfill or any other problems. I filled the tank with BD at the dealer's (a buddy of mine) to purposefully void the warrantee. I change the oil every 5K, not 10K, and change the fuel filter every 10K. Mileage is 38/45 with avg of 40 on 100%BD With cold weather I run 50/50 and get better mileage. I don't test my fuel, but I don't use the automated biopro method... I mix my own chemicals and wash from a hot water hose to keep temperatures higher. I've found higher temps make better fuel. I think dealers will blame every problem a car has on BD if they can, so the only way to prove an absent negative is to run the risk and control every parameter you can. My Ford dealer tried to blame a bad fuel injector on my pickup at 130K miles on BD, even though Ford acknowledged the 03-04 injectors were poorly manufactured. Home brewers of BD will always be swimming upstream.

biodieseleyedoc,
I was delighted to read your post. I've been strongly considering buying a new Jetta. I've been waiting to hear some definitive results from Jason's experiment but with your experience posted as well, maybe I won't wait any longer. Someone at the Biodeisel Now forum said that the DPF problem can be eliminated by running a single tank of D2 occasionally. From postings here that describe the issue this seems a reasonable solution. I expect that you could accomplish the same thing with an occasional tank of B50.
Does anyone have a suggestion about how often this would be needed?

My local dealer's head mechanic says that they have been selling Jettas to BD users for 4 months now.They ordered 20 and have 2 left on the lot. None have been back in yet with any mechanical issues. I live just north of San Francisco and BD is common enough here that diesel mechanics are familiar with it. My local dealer is supportive and says that they honor the warranty unless it is proven that the fuel was the cause of the problem. This is rare using commercial fuel.
The only work I ever needed done on my 2004 Jetta after over a 100,000 miles on BD was recall work from VW (some injector issue, a faulty tail light switch).
My Respect to all of you who are taking personal responsibility to make the world a better place through your consumer choices.

VAG COM and Regen cycles on BD

rosycrown said:

biodieseleyedoc,
I was delighted to read your post. I've been strongly considering buying a new Jetta. I've been waiting to hear some definitive results from Jason's experiment but with your experience posted as well, maybe I won't wait any longer. Someone at the Biodeisel Now forum said that the DPF problem can be eliminated by running a single tank of D2 occasionally. From postings here that describe the issue this seems a reasonable solution. I expect that you could accomplish the same thing with an occasional tank of B50.
Does anyone have a suggestion about how often this would be needed?

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Rose, here's a thought....The idea here is to figure out if the car can tell you how often it needs to regen using increasing concentraions of BD. You'll need to find someone running B100 in their 09 in your area for the experiement and VAG COM.

The good Doctor's VAG COM settings and information can be found here.

I believe he runs D2 only....you might want to ask him. So there's your baseline.

Now run a few tanks full of increasing concentrations of BD and keep VAG COM hooked up so you can see how often the car will regen. You know, maybe two tanks of B5, then two tanks of B10, two tanks of B20, etc. Maybe it won't take two tanks...but you'll definately want your D2/BD ratio to stay as consistent as possible. You'll also want to record when your test subject car uses any additives, as they can affect regen cycles.

What do you think? This would be very useful information for the hive.

Rod, Jason...have either of you collected any VAG COM regen information?

j...

no, I do not have a VAG COM, and am not aware of any data that is collected about regen. If such data exists, I'd love to see it. There is someone in Austin with a VAG COM who has offered to do a scan. If someone can tell us what we are looking for, I'll look into it.

Check out the good doctor's post I linked above. He's done some good work with this.

Awesome!!! Rose, this will help you out too.

Rod, biodieseleyedoc...ya'll should get a VAG COM connected up to yours too.

j...

Progressive Training?

jaydogg007--European BD forums suggest (and perhaps I don't understand this properly, I'm not a mechanic) that the computers are adaptive and need to be "trained" by starting with a low concentration of BD and progressively increasing. How would that effect the result you are suggesting?

jaydogg007 said:

Rose, here's a thought....The idea here is to figure out if the car can tell you how often it needs to regen using increasing concentraions of BD. You'll need to find someone running B100 in their 09 in your area for the experiement and VAG COM.

The good Doctor's VAG COM settings and information can be found here.

I believe he runs D2 only....you might want to ask him. So there's your baseline.

Now run a few tanks full of increasing concentrations of BD and keep VAG COM hooked up so you can see how often the car will regen. You know, maybe two tanks of B5, then two tanks of B10, two tanks of B20, etc. Maybe it won't take two tanks...but you'll definately want your D2/BD ratio to stay as consistent as possible. You'll also want to record when your test subject car uses any additives, as they can affect regen cycles.

What do you think? This would be very useful information for the hive.

Rod, Jason...have either of you collected any VAG COM regen information?

j...

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I think it would take a lot more than a couple tanks to see a difference, particularly at low BD concentrations. DoctorDawd is reporting a regen about every 300 miles, so maybe 1.8 regens per tank. If the cycles decrease with increasing BD, you'd probably need 10-20 tanks to see a difference. It may not change at all, depending on how VW has chosen to trigger the events.

I don't have access to the equipment needed, so I've collected nothing on my own. I believe my jetta went thru regen cycles running B99, as it experienced the same "regen symptoms" discussed on DoctorDawgs thread.

rodneyh1 said:

Based on the symptoms I've read here (very hot smell, fan running on shutdown, etc), I believe my '09 when through at least a few active regen cycles when using B99. No VAG COM info, however, so I can't be certain. I ran B99 for 4K miles, ULSD for 3.5K miles, and will switch back to B99 in a month or so (at 10K).

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This guy is having no problems apparently.

rosycrown said:

jaydogg007--European BD forums suggest (and perhaps I don't understand this properly, I'm not a mechanic) that the computers are adaptive and need to be "trained" by starting with a low concentration of BD and progressively increasing. How would that effect the result you are suggesting?

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Is the European emissions equipment the same as the North American stuff? If not, can they be logically compared?

Rose -- I dunno about adaptive computers in the car. You mean adaptive to the type of fuel. I'd be real impressed if this were the case. Not really suggesting any result, rather just curious how varying concentrations of BD will affect regen.

Neurot -- Dunno of such a post. I don't see a regen light on in my car ever....and that's a good thing. The regen light indicates problems with the DPF.

** edited after resurrection from blue screen of death **

can someone point to the post about regens being reported? the dash has a light to show regen, but it's never lit up in my 4300 miles...

Neurot said:

can someone point to the post about regens being reported? the dash has a light to show regen, but it's never lit up in my 4300 miles...

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The dash has a light to show that the particulate filter is plugged because it is past due on a regen, and you need to take it out and drive it at 40 mph NOW! There is no light indicating that the car is currently undergoing regen. Check your owner's manual - page 243.