Is this too much play in my turbo impeller?

I am trying to diagnose/fix a hard/no start when cold and smoke under acceleration, and I am to the point of cleaning my turbo (vnt-15) which is now off the car. I know one possibility is oil blow by through the turbo bearing, though I don't currently get the common symptom of an excess of oil in my intercooler line. I checked for play a few times on the car and didn't notice much, but now that the turbo is off the impeller moves more than I could tell on the car. It may be impossible to say if its too much from a video, but in case someone can, below is a link to one showing the movement. Though they get very close, the fins do not touch the housing and there are no scratches or damage that indicate to me that they have been rubbing.



The turbo is original and has 240,000 miles on it so its not young.



Thanks for any input.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tbfPA-ZSiI

Looks like it to me. It shouldn't be able to touch the side walls.

I see why you’re worried. Yes that looks like to much play. However, you said that you don’t have any oil in your intercooler, well other that a normal amount I’ll assume. One thing to keep in mind is that there is no oil in the turbo right now so that allows a bit more play than on your car hooked up.

I see no evidence of the fins contacting the side walls of the turbo, so it doesn’t look like it has in the past. How’s the front to rear movement? Or did I just not watch the video long enough?

I bought a used turbo from a member here to have as a spare. The arm was frozen and there was all kinds of debris (rust particles) inside. I disassembled it fully cleaned it and it seems to work fine now, and has less play than yours. Will it work? Maybe, maybe not but for $100 I’ve got a spare with a good actuator which alone is worth that much.

If you’re feeling flush, get a new one and go from there. If your wallet has you in a choke hold you could probably reinstall and keep a close eye on it for a while and see what happens.

I see no scarring on the walls so that tells me it's working well that way and you should plan on replacing it soon, not immediately.
Actuator and veins sticking are more likely culprits to your issue.

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk

agree with above opinions, look at a new turbo and it has the same movement. Endplay and signs of contact with the body of the cartridge is what you are looking for.

That's enough play to concern me. Isn't touching the housing yet, but I'd change it for sure.

Thanks guys. From your input and finally tracking down a video showing the play it does seem like its normal for not being supported with oil.The axial play is too little to see with the eye so thats good.


I got the turbo apart finally, there is some soot on the vnt mech but not nearly what I hopping to find in hopes that sticky vanes are my problem.



Below is a link to a video showing a oil pattern on the uncleaned intake side. Does this look normal to you? Bear in mind this is the first daylight these insides have seen in 18 years and 240,000 miles. I get a film of oil in my intercooler hose but never enough to pool or drip out, so the classic signs of a failed seal/bearing are not present. Also, is it normal for the round metal behind the exhaust impeller to be loose like it is on mine? I've watched a ton of videos and cant tell for sure in any of them.



https://youtu.be/p1StJdqbpFE

I refer to that as the turbine wheel, and yeah that's normal. As for the oil on the compressor housing back plate that's more oil than I've seen on any turbo I've had apart.

While I have you guys that have done the removal/replace before, I have an embarrassing question. What is this part and what orientation does it go back on? I heard but didn’t see it fall off when I took the turbo off and I know it lines up with the outer bolt holes on the exhaust manifold, but I can’t find it’s purpose or exact place/orientation.


Sorry for the links, I tried the insert image button but for some reason they wont show up in the post.


https://m.imgur.com/a/b7YirMe

http://imgur.com/a/suiX3bT

Im not sure of the name or even what it is actually for but the two bolts that are farthest to the left that hold your turbo on are where it fastens. Two farthest left looking up from underneath the car.

Farthest passenger side. They hold a heat shield in place over there.

Nero Morg said:

Farthest passenger side. They hold a heat shield in place over there.

Click to expand...

Ah! Thanks!

Interesting, two exact opposite locations. That’s funny. I guess who ever had mine apart previously didn’t know either.

It certainly won’t kill your engine regardless of where you put it, not like putting the big timing belt roller on top for instance. If that could even be done. Or forgetting to hook up the oil supply line to the turbo.

I've disassembled and cleaned several VNT15s...

The shaft play is a tad more than I've seen in the Turbos that I've disassembled with one exception. However, they all had less than 175k miles on them, except for that one exception which had over 400k miles on it.

The oil on the Impeller and associated housing come from the blow-by mist from the CCV puck.......... very typical, give or take a little.

The loose shield behind the Turbine is typical. It will align in the exhaust port upon installation. No worries there at all.

Did you remove the three TorX screws to remove the VNT mechanism? If not, you should. You need to jar them really hard with a TorX bit. Although they are threaded into the cast housing (rather long screws), I have heated them with a propane torch. I use a Torx bit and ratchet to remove them while applying as much downward pressure as possible. Use patience with removing ....... in and out, as you can twist them off.

Take a pic of the ring, arms, etc., before removing. That will help with re-assembly. Observe parts and sizes.

Once you remove the mechanism....... clean off the back plate. It is stainless steel. You will see where the Vanes have been rubbing. Notice if one side of the shield has more rub markings. If so, likely there is rust behind the shield. That shield will come off/out. Then, you can clean it on the back side as well as the cast housing.

If you have outside access to a pressure washer, it will provide awesome results.

If there is no accumulation of oil in your Inter Cooler, it is because your right foot is keeping it blown out. The Dip Stick is the go-to reference.

I sold a turbo that had 417K miles and it had zero play. That things moves too much. That is a sign of wear.

I've never seen a VNT15 with zero play.

The Turbo on the engine in my Vanagon had about half that the play as the OPs Turbo at 129k miles (when I got the engine). It has over 208k miles and is about the same.

Jokila, how long had your 417k mile Turbo been sitting on the shelf? Some of the stash I purchased back 8 to 10 years ago feel like they have zero play until they are "freed" up from sitting so long. There has to be clearance, otherwise, the bushing and shaft would seize pronto without oil.

All the turbos I have on the shelf have some play in them, but nowhere near enough to touch the housing with the compressor wheel. I've been running a wrecking yard turbo on my car with unknown miles, and it's doing just fine. Th original turbo I pulled off my motor at 322k miles is now on my buddy's car after a fresh vnt clean.

I had taken a turbo apart once that had major bearing failure, from what I've seen in it, the bearing is just a brass bushing that floats the shaft in it with oil. The owner of that turbo ran pure bio in it, and never changed his oil, so it turned it into sandpaper quick.

Thank you for the detailed info Andy! I have indeed taken the turbo apart (it took copious time, penetrating oil, heat and banging to get it separated) and am cleaning and reassembling it today. The vanes were pretty clean actually so I'm not holding out much hope there, but, the vnt actuator sounds like a baby's rattle, so maybe even though its functioning ok it is having intermittent failures due to rust inside.


If this post is too long, here are links to VCSD logs for the MAF and turbo. 3rd gear, WOT:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...3tLyTSPkGtp62-tRBu2VB81Vk/edit#gid=1702375523


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...8OxQNG2VvD8qxwseNuXrJZT1Y/edit#gid=2089221261

I didn't want to go whole hog into my problem in this thread but since I have so many knowledgeable folks I will detail them to see what you think. I will be as brief as possible but its hard as its been a long road:

The short - Unburned fuel, oil blow by and/or insufficient air causing intermittent no starts when cold and smoke under acceleration.

The long - I live in Colorado and every winter the car gets harder to start in the cold. The progression was perfect starts for 6 years of owning the car (purchased 2008), then a few hard starts, then more, then a failure to start, then a couple fails, then I installed a frost heater last winter to bandaid the problem and its fine as long as I can plug it in. BUT, without the heater, MOST days it would start fine, then a random day would come along and it would fail to start. I live in Colorado and altitude effects it, the first fail I had was a cold day at 14,000 feet, so something is happening with too little air and unburned fuel/oil.

When I finally get it started it fires very slowly, sounds terrible, blows copious black smoke and sometimes spits carbon powder out of the tailpipe. Its truly awful.

I get smoke on all coldstarts, much more than when I bought the car but not too much unless it starts hard. It blows some smoke under normal driving but lots if I drop a gear and mash the pedal. Very noticeable in the mountains. In general my exhaust smells more richly of diesel than it used to, which has been noticed my multiple people.

It never used to do any of this and the problem is definitely progressive over 4 years. Its also bizarre because beyond it only happening on cold days, it doesn't seem to correlate to how cold it is below say, 20 degrees. Its nearly as likely to happen at 20 as at 0, but it will never happen at 40. I do use anti gel every winter.


What I've done:


-Reseal and chem clean injection pump (no change except pump started making a metal on metal sound halfway through the clean so I aborted the process.)

-Many new air and fuel filters along the way.

-New glow plugs, glow plug harness and relay. Everything checks as working.
-New injectors installed by Diesel Land in Golden
-Cleaned intake (I had this done in 2014 and the shop said it was the worst they had ever seen. Ive had it off since and its clear)
-New EGR (it failed and spit oil on my engine so I replaced)
-Compression test (Performed by a shop, everything checks within specs)
-New brake booster line (had a huge crack, though I didn't notice any problem which is weird. I haven't checked for vac leaks, just learned how and will do soon).
-Checked vent puck (working properly)


So now I'm down to:


-Sticky turbo/bearing blow by (I can't afford to replace and not have it fix the problem, seems to be in ok shape but did have some soot and rust. Not leaking lots of oil but I guess I'll never know 100% about blow by without replacing?)
-Vac system issue (should have done first but I'm learning as I go)
-Clogged Catalytic Converter (I happened upon this reading another thread and will check it when the car is up again)
-Faulty MAF (not sure how to check this with my intermittent problem)
-Faulty ECU causing air issues (Not sure if this can be checked without replacing)


Once I fix the problem I will do a new thread/writeup on it, because I want others to benefit from my struggles and it sucks when people don't post what their ultimate problem was.

I happened to notice that you have not checked your static and dynamic timing.
That can cause everything you have happening.

If the timing is off , statically , it will affect the way it runs.
Also if the static timing is good and the dynamic timing is at the low end of the graph you will have a hard time starting when cold .
If you IQ is set too low , towards 2-3 , you are over fueling , it needs to set to 3-4ish.
To do this ( dynamic timing and IQ ) you need vcds or at least access to one.

csstevej said:

If the timing is off , statically , it will affect the way it runs.
Also if the static timing is good and the dynamic timing is at the low end of the graph you will have a hard time starting when cold .
If you IQ is set too low , towards 2-3 , you are over fueling , it needs to set to 3-4ish.
To do this ( dynamic timing and IQ ) you need vcds or at least access to one.

Click to expand...

When I got new injectors last winter they checked the timing and said it was good but advanced it a bit saying that may help but none of it helped, except I think it blows less smoke under power which does make sense. I have vag com by am learning how to use it along the way so I’ll check all that when the car is up again.

Another possibility I forgot to list is a general injection pump issue, but I can’t afford to just change it so I’ll have to do any diagnostics possible. I did change the seals so it’s not leaking.

Who is they?

I would first check static timing, rent , borrow or buy the tools, they will pay for themselves.

Then check your dynamic timing, I suspect static is off.

When was the timing belt done and by who?

csstevej said:

Who is they?

I would first check static timing, rent , borrow or buy the tools, they will pay for themselves.

Then check your dynamic timing, I suspect static is off.

When was the timing belt done and by who?

Click to expand...

Injectors were done by Diesel Land in Golden CO (aNut on this forum). They are a trusted mechanic and aNut has posted copious technical info on setting timing. Timing belt and water pump was done 60,000 miles ago with a 100,000 mile kit by a shop in Reno. I did just notice in doing this turbo that the water pump is leaking coolant, so that’s wonderful.

I will def check the timing when I can.

Well, I put the turbo back together and just bench tested the actuator for safety’s sake and it’s leaking down badly. I tested it on the car and I “believe” it was holding a vacuum before, but I was new to the procedure and can’t be for sure. I know a new actuator won’t fix my hard starts directly, but now I have to decide on a new actuator on an old questionable turbo, or a new turbo. Dang it!!!!

Are you trying to reuse the turbo that has all the shaft wobble? I'd suggest new, or get one used off the private for sale listings.

Nero Morg said:

Are you trying to reuse the turbo that has all the shaft wobble? I'd suggest new, or get one used off the private for sale listings.

Click to expand...

Yah, I was going to reuse it but now with a confirmed bad actuator I’m in that crap position of pay $114 for the actuator and try for the reuse or $700 more for the new turbo and I know 100% it’s good after that. If money wasn’t a factor I’d replace it for sure.

I messaged one person about a used one but there are not a lot posted in the classifieds.

Andy, I just sent you a PM to see if you still have any vnt-15’s laying around.

If you go to the following link you will find 1 year warrantied, inexpensive turbos. Their used turbos are completely cleaned, fixed however they are needed, and vsr balanced.
Look in post #3: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434593.
These vnt-15 turbos are $275.00 delivered.

Frans from Dutch auto is a stand up guy!

And avoid Hans