NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

WutGas? said:

As stated, it's not 8K-10K. For some reason on this board, everyone knows not to go to the dealer for repairs and pay retail, yet when it comes to this issue, everyone continues to throw around this huge number from the same dealers we condemn that includes replacing everything, even though it's not needed. Just as a 40K service shouldn't cost $900, and a timing belt replacement isn't 2K, this HPFP is not nearly as expensive as some make it out to be.

From a different thread...

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Hmmm...just replace the HPFP? Riiighhhttt that's all that is needed. That's only what VoA approved for me the second time I was at the dealer service and my car was officially diagnosed for the failure...then piece by piece, after 45 days in the shop, four separate times, over a 3 month period, they finally agreed to replace the entire fuel system including the tank.

Note it was covered under my drive train warranty.

amy1000 said:

Hmmm...just replace the HPFP? Riiighhhttt that's all that is needed. That's only what VoA approved for me the second time I was at the dealer service and my car was officially diagnosed for the failure...then piece by piece, after 45 days in the shop, four separate times, over a 3 month period, they finally agreed to replace the entire fuel system including the tank.

Note it was covered under my drive train warranty.

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I think the proposal is to replace the HPFP as a proactive measure. Yours failed and that is what contaminated everything else.

I'm still not convinced that proactive replacement is the right approach. Seems like it is a crapshoot and you might be replacing a 'good' pump with one that is destined to fail.

Reading oilhammer's post, I don't think he is saying to replace it proactively. It seemed to me from his post that if the HPFP fails, replacement of the pump and a good cleaning would be sufficient.

Luck of the Draw?

"I'm still not convinced that proactive replacement is the right approach. Seems like it is a crapshoot and you might be replacing a 'good' pump with one that is destined to fail.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand the logic: How can it be a "crapshoot" if both pumps are destined to fail sooner than a 'normal' life expectancy? How can one pump be 'good'?

Some pumps last 150k+, while others of the same part number/revision only last 25k..

It's a crapshoot either way haha

TDIJetta99 said:

truck stops.. big ones.. close to the highway.. That's where the fuel station is more likely to be high volume..

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Not necessarilly, Most of the truck stops that I've stopped at have separate tanks for cars and big rigs. Only way to get to the big rig tanks, is to fall in line with them. Some stations, like Love's, won't turn the truck pumps on for a car and at least at the closest one to me, there are no low flow nozzles on the back side.

I try to stick to newer stations with at least 20% of the pump islands handling diesel.

Huh.. I'll have to remember that about Love's when I travel.. I haven't ever had an issue at the truck pumps getting them to turn them on.. The Citgo I go to over by me has 3 giant diesel tanks that feed all of the pumps.. No separate tank for the two pumps on the car side of the building.. They go through enough fuel to get deliveries 2-3X/week.. They also have a single low flow nozzle on the truck side which is the one I use the most since there's rarely a line..

I try to use Gulf's Dieselect when ever I get the chance, since there is a mom and pop Gulf station/garage right next door to where I work. The guys there indicate it has the additive already in there and that many diesel drivers come to thier station because they claim to get better mileage with the Dieselect. I have noticed this as well, but it could be my mind playing tricks on me. I still add Stanadyne Performance Formula to my fillups too. Hope this will save my HPFP in the long run.

http://www.gulfoil.com/ProductsServices/MotorFuels/DieselDieselect.aspx

I see that Oregon Fuel Injection is rebuilding CP4 pumps:

http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=16#INJECTION_PUMPS_IDI

These are the 2 cylinder ".2" pumps, not the ".1" pumps, but the CP4's must be rebuildable after all.
Only $100 core charge, so most of the cores must be salvageable. Or are they simply brand new pumps at that price with a core charge just to get some cores in the door?

scdevon said:

I see that Oregon Fuel Injection is rebuilding CP4 pumps:

http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=16#INJECTION_PUMPS_IDI

These are the 2 cylinder ".2" pumps, not the ".1" pumps, but the CP4's must be rebuildable after all.
Only $100 core charge, so most of the cores must be salvageable. Or are they simply brand new pumps at that price with a core charge just to get some cores in the door?

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Check this page http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=35#VW_REBUILT_INJECTORS

09-11 High Pressure Common Rail Pump, 2.0L VW TDI Golf, Jetta, A3 Audi TDI, OEM 03L130755A, 03L130851AX

$694.13

bobt2382 said:

Check this page http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=35#VW_REBUILT_INJECTORS

09-11 High Pressure Common Rail Pump, 2.0L VW TDI Golf, Jetta, A3 Audi TDI, OEM 03L130755A, 03L130851AX

$694.13

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I missed that. Thanks.

FowVay said:

Nobody would object to VW submitting a sample of fuel from the filter housing to a reputable laboratory for verification. If the results came back positive for gasoline contamination in a percentage high enough to cause pump failure then naturally VW is going to deny the warranty coverage based on fuel contamination. There is hard evidence and the case is closed.

But to have VW deny a $10,000 repair because a styrofoam cup melted is pure folly. Unfortunately that's what we have to deal with when we rely upon Volkswagens' dealer network in the USA.

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Such "evidence" would never be accepted in a court of law. Manufacturers must PROVE that (1) gasoline is responsible for the pump's failure and (2) that it is present in the tank. No court would accept a styrofoam cup test as legal evidence.

So is there a list of dealers that have denied HPFP repair based upon a melting cup?
If yes, we should boycott all those dealers. No purchases. No oil changes. Nothing.

There are reports in the past that this was done.

Comments from a casual observer concerning the availability of HPFP failure data:

1) Currently extensive and almost all-inclusive HPFP failure data is available, but only for a limited amount of time, for several reasons:

a) Most vehicles experiencing HPFP failures are within the 5 year 60,000 mile factory drive train warranty and are therefor being brought back to VW dealers for repairs.

b) VW has also been repairing HPFP failures on vehicles which are out of warranty as a good will gesture. Perhaps to obtain more data and perhaps to also avoid bad publicity during the NHTSA investigation.

c) The ongoing NHTSA investigation is requiring VW to report details for HPFP failures.

2) If the NHTSA investigation does not lead to a viable resolution for dealing with HPFP failures, then once the investigation is closed, there will no longer be any incentive for VW to share the details of HPFP failures or continue to repair out of warranty vehicles at no charge.

Also, most owners will not have VW dealers repair out of warranty HPFP failures when other shops are less expensive, so there will no longer be any reliable all-inclusive data to track HPFP failures even for VW.

3) For better or worse this forum will continue to discuss the individual HPFP failures reported in posts and disagree whether they are caused by a design flaw or just a rare occurrence not to be concerned about.

dweisel said:

First failure covered under warranty. Second failure blamed on GAS in fuel.

Owner has fuel tested. Lab test comes back clean. VW then shifts the blame to sediment. Owner starts litigation.

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Wow. VW sounds like a bastard company. (But then: Aren't they all?)

ssamalin said:

the millions of affected current Toyota customers are being taken care of not shafted like us, so Toyota is standing behind their product and keeping their base and reputation

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Yes. Now. Toyota of 2000 or 2005 was much like VW..... having customers with sludged engines and Toyota blamed "bad oil" and refused to replace the engine. Millions of customers were left out in the cold, until Toyota was forced, by court order, to make good.

Corporations. They (almost) all suck.

roostre said:

o track HPFP failures even for VW.
3) For better or worse this forum will continue to discuss the individual HPFP failures reported in posts and disagree whether they are caused by a design flaw or just a rare occurrence not to be concerned about.

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Who has argued that it's definitely not a design flaw?

It could be a flaw AND still rare.

pknopp said:

Who has argued that it's definitely not a design flaw?

It could be a flaw AND still rare.

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Hi pknopp,

The main point I wanted to make with my post is that for an unknown period of time (while the NHTSA investigation is active) there will be ample almost all-inclusive data from VW to accurately access the HPFP failure rate and that this is better and more useful data than tallying individual posts from a small portion of owners who happen to report their HPFP failures on this forum.

Between the numerous posts downplaying the likelihood of ever having an HPFP failure and posts concerning poor diesel fuel quality and the importance of using additives to avoid HPFP failures, I may have incorrectly assumed that some posters believe there is either no issue with the HPFP or poor quality diesel fuel and not a flaw with the HPFP pump is causing the failures.

I do not consider HPFP failures caused by misfuels with gasoline to be a design flaw of the HPFP, but because it also wreaks devastating havoc throughout the entire fuel system I do consider that to be a flaw in the design of the fuel system.

For clarity I'll leave my original post un-edited since it has been quoted in your reply.
I appreciate your response and should have stated item "3" in my original post as follows:

3) For better or worse this forum will continue to discuss individual HPFP failures reported in posts without access to complete HPFP failure rate data (after the NHTSA investigation closed) and disagree if these are rare occurrences or inevitable with time due to either poor diesel fuel quality or a design flaw in the HPFP.

One entity who may or not be represented anonymously on this forum does believe there are not any design flaws with the HPFP.

Below quote is on page 34 of the VW response dated 11/30/2012 to the NHTSA:

"Volkswagen’s ongoing investigation and analysis of the alleged HPFP issues between
August 2010 and October 2012 continues to support the assertion that the design and
performance of the TDI Clean Diesel HPFP does not represent any material defect."

Quoted from:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

LOL, yes, sorry, I didn't figure VW into my question.

A 2012 Jetta 6M with 42,000 miles on it blew the fuel pump right after Christmas. The lady had just filled up about a mile before it blew. The same Chevron station that she had allways used(her husband works at the Chevron refinery so she thought it would be better). When she finally notified VW they hauled it off and said they would repair it and deliver it to her house no questions asked.

gulfcoastguy said:

A 2012 Jetta 6M with 42,000 miles on it blew the fuel pump right after Christmas. The lady had just filled up about a mile before it blew. The same Chevron station that she had allways used(her husband works at the Chevron refinery so she thought it would be better). When she finally notified VW they hauled it off and said they would repair it and deliver it to her house no questions asked.

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When you say, BLEW, did it actually explode?

I want to know, because the HPFP in my car was replaced yesterday, and it never blew up to begin with (and since the fuel wasn't purged, contamination is not an issue... yet).

blew, grenaded, imploded, self-destructed

> When you say, BLEW, did it actually explode?

That's just a figure of speech, at least for all reported cases so far.

I presume that the actual failure sequence is that the injectors get clogged with pump shavings, and the engine just dies. Of course, the bypass valve, well earlier, already made sure that the rest of the fuel system, from tank to HPFP, was thoroughly contaminated with the debris.

If the pump actually exploded, or just leaked, we have had fires reported, long ago. That's not happening. You just get to sit in a dead car, possibly somewhere you'd really rather not be.

TDI2000Zim said:

I want to know, because the HPFP in my car was replaced yesterday, and it never blew up to begin with (and since the fuel wasn't purged, contamination is not an issue... yet).

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On your Passat?

TDI2000Zim said:

When you say, BLEW, did it actually explode?

I want to know, because the HPFP in my car was replaced yesterday, and it never blew up to begin with (and since the fuel wasn't purged, contamination is not an issue... yet).

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Within a mile after filling up at the same station she allways filled up at it lost power, a dash board light started flashing, and it died just as it got on a 4 mile long bridge. That's all I know by listening to a co worker about his wife's cousin's wife.

Second Turbo said:

> When you say, BLEW, did it actually explode?

That's just a figure of speech, at least for all reported cases so far.

I presume that the actual failure sequence is that the injectors get clogged with pump shavings, and the engine just dies. Of course, the bypass valve, well earlier, already made sure that the rest of the fuel system, from tank to HPFP, was thoroughly contaminated with the debris.

If the pump actually exploded, or just leaked, we have had fires reported, long ago. That's not happening. You just get to sit in a dead car, possibly somewhere you'd really rather not be.

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I read somewhere that when the HPFP 'blows', it GRENADES, with SHRAPNEL. That is an explosive description.

Anything short of that is merely a failure, but I wish I knew more of what type of HPFP failure, or how it typically looks.

In my case, only the HPFP was removed and replaced, not the fuel injectors, nor anything else major.

red64chevelle said:

On your Passat?

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Yes.

gulfcoastguy said:

Within a mile after filling up at the same station she allways filled up at it lost power, a dash board light started flashing, and it died just as it got on a 4 mile long bridge. That's all I know by listening to a co worker about his wife's cousin's wife.

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Interesting. So no loud bang, or anything, just a silent whimper and lights. I wish they had pictures of THIS case. I don't have pictures of my case either, just the words of a nondescript Dealer Service Manager.

TDI2000Zim said:

I read somewhere that when the HPFP 'blows', it GRENADES, with SHRAPNEL. That is an explosive description.

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The descriptive terms are hyperbole.

What happens is that metal shavings come off the failing parts, and are scattered throughout the fuel system, clogging the injectors. When not enough fuel is being delivered, the engine stops. There is no actual explosion taking place.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=279537&page=2

resize please?

DPM said:

resize please?

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Echo...

All of which is why I just bought a case of Stanadyne Perf. Formula Jr. (if I'm going to use an additive, I want it to be "minimal") to improve the lubricity and clean and hopefully avoid what appears to be still a rather long shot problem. The idea of preventive replacement seems rather extreme. 76K miles with no problems. Getting the brake fluid changed tomorrow under the VW warrantee as a time related maintenence - 3yrs.