Remap (chip tuning) vs tuning box with turbo controller

oldstreetracer · Dec 17, 2006

I have been wanting to ask this question for some time but have been searching to see if I can find the answer (no luck). How much more power would you really make if you went for chip tuning as opposed to just purchasing a tuning box and turbo controller? Obviously the advantage of the latter is that you would be able to tune yourself for future performance changes (instead of getting a reflash everytime). Another advantage is that it is completely removable when making a dealership visit. Assume the car has a EGT and Boost gauge along with a good boost valve.

Kind Regards

oldstreetracer · Dec 17, 2006

Come on guys/gals, this should be an easy one with all the brain power on this site!

Regards

454k30 · Dec 17, 2006

my first question is if anyone makes a stand alone boost controller for our VNT setups?

Sig Dawg · Dec 17, 2006

Dieseltuning makes a stand alone boost controller, it's called a TPC. Its about $300 and sounds like it works well.

oldstreetracer · Dec 17, 2006

454k30 said:
my first question is if anyone makes a stand alone boost controller for our VNT setups?

Have a look here, JS perf sells the tuning box and the boost control module as a kit along with FB injectors, all for the ALH engine.

http://jsperformance.ca/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=181

http://www.dieseltuning.ca/modules/digi_tpc.html

oldstreetracer · Dec 19, 2006

How come no one wants to touch this question, if I did not already have a chip I would serously consider a turbo boost controller along with a tuning box, what are the pros and cons?

Pro - can adjust yourself for any future perf mods

cons - does a tuning box change injection timing? If not how much HP loss are we really talking about

http://www.dieseltuning.ca/modules/digiz.html

http://www.dieseltuning.ca/modules/digi_tpc.html

Regards

jetta-girl · Dec 19, 2006

I've had a DieselPower tuning box in my car for almost a year now. First, I started out with the wireless box, and now I have the wired pro-box. I must say that it has performed flawlessly. I have not dynoed my car, but I do have 1/4 mile times for comparison. My stock 1/4 mile times were in the mid 19 second range. With the wireless box, those times went down to the mid 17 second range, usually about 17.4. With the wireless box, I'm now down to 16.5 for my quickest to 16.85 for my slowest. These runs were all done on NHRA tracks with official time slips providing the info. My car is a 2006, so it is a bit bigger/heavier than the MKIV's, that is why the 1/4 mile times seem a bit slower than should be expected. Main point is, the DieselPower tuning box took 3 seconds off my time without any other mods. I don't have the TPC for my car, so I'm not really qualified to speak on behalf of that component of the set up from JS Performance. Another benefit of the DieselPower Tuning Box is that it comes with a three year warranty.

vwmikel · Dec 19, 2006

With the way most tuning boxes work they are still limited by the programming of the chip. That is, they can alter the feedback signals to the ECU in order to produce the desired results (such as more fuel) but this is still limited by the ECU programming. One of the maps (among many) within the ECU programming is commonly referred to as the smoke map and provides a maximum injection quantity for a given engine speed and airflow. On the 90hp engines this is a max if 51 mg/stroke. It doesn't matter what the other maps call for, it cannot exceed that injection volume because of the limits of the smoke map and in-turn the other maps which control the pump output voltage (I'm not going to talk about this much because I haven't seen it covered in public openly and I'd like to keep the hit-men off my back). So, to sum it up a tuning box works but it has it's limitations. If it's a small gain you're after then the tuning box should work well but if you're looking to pull a lot of power out of the car then you really want to head in the direction of chiptuning. There is just so much more that can be done and better tuning to be had.

Ed's TDI · Dec 20, 2006

I've got one of these ready to go into my Wagon in addition to the .205's and DP tuning box. Just waiting until after the holidays to have it all installed, along with gauges and upgraded clutch.

There have been a few people that have been trying to claim the TPC isn't the "best" solution in order to get power and that you can get just as much power from chip-tuning. The way I see it, I've got a TDI with a monster turbo setup that's putting down big numbers and the wagon is going to be my daily-driver so I wanted cheap power that would be a nice upgrade but wouldn't break the bank. That's why I went this direction on this car because I've seen the original "test" car that JSP did the tuning on this setup with and I know that there's pretty decent gains to be had for $1K CDN worth of upgrades (less if you manage to find or already have some of the parts yourself!)

bencarr is very happy with his TPC that he bought in order to solve a turbo issue he was having with his modded PD. You can read about it here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=159027

Kabin · Dec 20, 2006

Ed's TDI said:
There have been a few people that have been trying to claim the TPC isn't the "best" solution....

Are you trying to claim it is the "best?"

The one before and after plot I recall showed marginal HP increase over a <1000 RPM band.

leon10tagg · Dec 20, 2006

vwmikel said:
With the way most tuning boxes work they are still limited by the programming of the chip. That is, they can alter the feedback signals to the ECU in order to produce the desired results (such as more fuel) but this is still limited by the ECU programming. One of the maps (among many) within the ECU programming is commonly referred to as the smoke map and provides a maximum injection quantity for a given engine speed and airflow. On the 90hp engines this is a max if 51 mg/stroke. It doesn't matter what the other maps call for, it cannot exceed that injection volume because of the limits of the smoke map and in-turn the other maps which control the pump output voltage (I'm not going to talk about this much because I haven't seen it covered in public openly and I'd like to keep the hit-men off my back). So, to sum it up a tuning box works but it has it's limitations. If it's a small gain you're after then the tuning box should work well but if you're looking to pull a lot of power out of the car then you really want to head in the direction of chiptuning. There is just so much more that can be done and better tuning to be had.

OK as I understand you are correct the max output of the pump is 51mg/stroke with original ECU maps. However what is the max output of a 10mm pump? In turn what is the maximum fuelling that most tuning boxes can provide? Currently I am running a PP502s and TD tuning box on max setting with a MAP 'C' sensor. I have fitted a FMIC and VNT17 and the car does not smoke. This leads me to the conclusion that with the current set up I need more fuel to get more power

. Presently I am being pointed in the direction of a re-map. I would be of the opinion that if I could increase fuelling and control the boost with something similiar to the TPC I would give it a try

.

vwmikel · Dec 20, 2006

I understand what you're saying. If you can adjust fueling outside of the ECU it would be easier for the average person to make changes. The closest thing to that I think is what's offered by unichip. I do chiptuning myself and I've often thought of a way I could make it user friendly and at the same time protect the somewhat secretive nature of the process but as of yet I haven't quite figured out how to make that happen. The bottom line though is that unless the tuning box uses a process to control the outputs of the ECU rather than the signals going into it then you're always going to be limited by the ECU programming. To an extent you can get around this with a big pump and injectors but as you do these hardware modifications it becomes increasingly difficult to retain a linear and smoke-free tune as fuel isn't increased merely at full throttle, but everywhere. The ECU can compensate to an extent but it's flying blind for the most part.

Ed's TDI · Dec 20, 2006

Kabin said:
Are you trying to claim it is the "best?"

The one before and after plot I recall showed marginal HP increase over a <1000 RPM band.

On the contrary I'm simply stating it isn't the worst option out there. The whole point of this discussion is to look at the various options available. The more options there are the better. Some people aren't near a chip-tuner and can't have their vehicle side-lined for 3-4 days to send their ECU away. Some people prefer the fact that these modules are removeable. As shown in bencarr's thread he used this module to help overcome a problem he was experiencing with his turbo not being able to supply the requested boost.

I would never be so presumptuous as to claim anything is "the best" but I also would be so quick as to discount any potential mod.

GoFaster · Dec 20, 2006

It's another thing to put into the bag of tricks. The tough part is combining stuff from the bag of tricks to end up with a package that works at the end of the day. There is not necessarily any one single path.

oldstreetracer · Dec 21, 2006

vwmikel said:
With the way most tuning boxes work they are still limited by the programming of the chip. That is, they can alter the feedback signals to the ECU in order to produce the desired results (such as more fuel) but this is still limited by the ECU programming. One of the maps (among many) within the ECU programming is commonly referred to as the smoke map and provides a maximum injection quantity for a given engine speed and airflow. On the 90hp engines this is a max if 51 mg/stroke. It doesn't matter what the other maps call for, it cannot exceed that injection volume because of the limits of the smoke map and in-turn the other maps which control the pump output voltage (I'm not going to talk about this much because I haven't seen it covered in public openly and I'd like to keep the hit-men off my back). So, to sum it up a tuning box works but it has it's limitations. If it's a small gain you're after then the tuning box should work well but if you're looking to pull a lot of power out of the car then you really want to head in the direction of chiptuning. There is just so much more that can be done and better tuning to be had.

Now this is the info that I am looking for!, thanks vwmikel, the smoke map limiting the amount of fuel using a stock flash makes good sense to me. I like the comments that I read in Ed's link, seems that people are using the TPC to keep the boost up even after a chip mod, I know that for myself using Upsolute stage 2 that the boost will jump up to 22psi then after about 10 seconds will quickly jump down to 16 ~ 17psi, therefore if I could keep it pegged at 20 I could pick up some power.

Regards

Stealth TDI · Jan 1, 2007

Hi,

I cannot speak for the PD files; but I know Jeff can make files good for 20-psi sustained. Any higher than that and I think he needs the 3-bar MAP sensor (for my AHU, anyway).

I did a little reading about this TPC. I'm not saying it's a bad thing; and I'm not saying it doesn't work. But I think it's poor business to put this on the website as part of the description:

Unlike performance “Chips” our modules are Safe, Dependable and Reliable; they are designed for people who rely on the efficiency of their diesel vehicle.

This makes me sorry to have put so much faith in Jeff since his products are obviously unsafe and reliable... NOT!

I'm all for different paths to the same end. But this sort of talk is a cheap shot to make a buck.

Scott

doc_m · Jan 1, 2007

I had a Tuning box in my car but now just waiting for mark to get the required parts and finally get my chip in will post my results as I get them

Remap (chip tuning) vs tuning box with turbo controller

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