Why Americans should fall in love with the diesel

gcarper

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2004
Location
Virginia
TDI
None yet
Date posted: 01-19-2006
Here are some figures to conjure with:

Audi A8 4.2 TDI quattro
Audi A8 4.2 quattro​
Engine
326 - horsepower V8
335 - horsepower V8​
Torque
(lb-ft)
479
317​
0-100 km/h
(0-62 mph)
5.9
6.2​
Top speed
(mpg)
155
155​
Average consumption (mpg)
30.0
23.7​
Range
(miles)
594
469​
Emissions (CO2 g/km)
253
286​
List price
(U.S. dollars)
$103,591
$101,005​

Consider those for a moment. The diesel-powered Audi A8 4.2 TDI is not only more economical than the gasoline-powered A8 4.2, it also produces fewer greenhouse gases and, most importantly for readers of this Web site, it's also significantly quicker.

For the past few years, while the U.S. has been bemoaning ever increasing gas prices, the Europeans have been experiencing a quiet, bloodless diesel revolution. The introduction of multivalve, common-rail direct-injection and pre-ignition technology has transformed the diesel engine from a noisy agricultural workhorse into an ultrarefined, economical powerhouse worthy of the finest performance and luxury cars. Across Europe, more than a third of new cars now stop at the black pump and in some countries, diesel cars outsell petrol.

It's a staggering transformation, and one from which the U.S. could learn some important lessons.

The techie bit
The diesel revolution in Europe has been driven by new technology. Here are some of the headlining acts:

Multivalve technology — Most modern turbodiesels, such as the Audi V8, feature four valves per cylinder — two inlet and two exhaust. This allows the fuel-injection nozzle to be positioned in the center of the combustion chamber, producing more efficient, symmetrical combustion. Power is increased, while harmful emissions are reduced.

Computer-controlled direct injection — The car's onboard computer takes readings from a range of sensors, such as the throttle position and engine speed, and carefully regulates the fuel supply, which is injected directly into the combustion chamber. Diesels do not require spark plugs; the fuel ignites automatically when mixed with hot air.

The Audi V8 TDI is one of the first engines to use Piezo injectors. These are capable of five separate injections of fuel during each engine stroke — at 4,000 rpm that's 20,000 injections per minute or 333 per second. The efficiency of the combustion is greatly improved.

Common-rail technology — Diesels of old had separate fuel lines from the pump to each injector. The pressure and injection timing were dependant on the engine speed. Modern common-rail systems, by contrast, unite all the injectors on a single feed line and operate independently of engine speed. The fuel supply can therefore be precisely managed by the onboard computers. Common-rail systems also operate at much higher injection pressures, which helps optimize the fuel-air mix and the efficiency of the combustion process.

Pilot injection — Sometimes called "pre-ignition," pilot injection eliminates the combustion spikes that cause the "rattle" traditionally associated with diesel engines, especially at idling speeds. Pilot injection introduces a small quantity of fuel into the combustion chamber prior to the main power-inducing explosion. This injection takes place within a few ten-thousandths of a second of the main explosion and results in a smoother combustion cycle and reduced clatter. Even at a standstill, an Audi, BMW or Mercedes-Benz diesel is now all but as refined as its gasoline sibling.

Pilot injection has two other significant advantages. The system enhances the engine's cold-start capability, so that diesels can now function at temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Pilot injection also helps reduce nitrous-oxide emissions by lowering peak combustion temperatures.

Turbocharging — A turbodiesel is hardly a new concept, but the blowers used are becoming increasingly sophisticated. The Audi V8 TDI features twin turbochargers and twin intercoolers. BMW's new 535d, which is actually a 3.0-liter, is the first production diesel to use sequential turbos. A smaller turbo operates from idle to low engine speeds — helping to generate 368 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm — before a second, larger turbo takes over at higher engine speeds. The net result is 272 hp and 413 lb-ft of torque.

Emissions — Low-sulphur diesel, which becomes mandatory in the U.S. next year, has been available in Europe for some time. As well as eliminating unpleasant odors, low-sulphur fuel enables the use of catalytic converters and particulate filter traps to dramatically reduce the nitrous oxides and other harmful emissions produced by diesel engines. The Audi V8 combines twin catalytic converters with a particular filter trap that requires no additives and will therefore not need servicing during the car's lifespan.

The road to Damascus
In years gone by, the case for diesel was made on rational, economic grounds. Diesels might have been fractionally more expensive to buy, but the additional outlay was soon offset by reduced running costs and higher residual values. So what if it rattled a bit when cold, you could always turn up the stereo.

Today, the economic rationale in favor of diesel is still relevant, but it's been joined by more emotive impulses. In the U.K., for example, the BMW 530i and 530d cost similar money. They have the same power output (231 hp), but the diesel has dramatically more torque — 212 lb-ft vs. 384 lb-ft. The 530i gets to 62 mph 1.3 seconds quicker than the 530d (which takes 7.8 seconds), but in the midrange, when the torque becomes more relevant, the diesel car pulverizes its petrol rival. That it's astonishingly refined, even at idle, and achieves an average of 42.2 mpg to the 530i's 32.1 mpg (European "combined" estimates for manual-transmission vehicles), is really the cherry on top of the icing on top of the cake. The 530d is the enthusiast's choice, pure and simple.

The case for the opposition
Some performance-car manufacturers argue that diesel power runs counter to their brand values. Porsche, for example, reckons that the relatively low-revving characteristics of a diesel engine are ill-suited to a performance application. "A Porsche engine must be free revving," argues Jan Roth, the project chief for the new Cayman S. "The Cayman engine's rev limiter is set at 7,300 rpm; most diesels produce their peak power around 4,500 rpm."

Porsche is also concerned about the noise of the engine. While the Audi V8 emits a throaty, deep growl, no diesel will match the sonorous roar of a Porsche boxer. Instead of diesel, the Weissach boffins are trying to solve the consumption/emissions conundrum by developing a hybrid version of the Cayenne, which will be launched before the end of the decade.

Diesel engines also tend to be heavier than their petrol counterparts. In a front-engine car, placing so much mass over the front wheels can compromise the car's balance and handling. The Volkswagen Touareg 5.0 V10 TDI, for example, suffers from excessive understeer.

Final thoughts
While diesel clearly isn't the answer to everyone's prayers, the U.S. market is unquestionably missing out on the modern diesel phenomenon. Bountiful torque, excellent refinement and a huge range are qualities well suited to the American highway. It is surely time to put away the prejudices of the 1970s and embrace the modern diesel engine.

 

cp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Granted they should, but here's why I think Americans probably WON'T fall in love with diesels:

1. The additional cost of a diesel engine while simultaneously getting to pay more for diesel fuel than premium unleaded.

2. The requirement that you actually pay attention to the maintenance of a diesel. Americans love to go to Jiffy Lube and remain ignorant of what's in the crankcase.

3. The stigma of diesels from the black '80's. Only fools were perceived to have bought diesels back then. Fool me once....

4. Most Americans who have never owned a diesel don't have the requisite self-esteem to break with their gas-engine suburbanite pack.

5. The lack of equivalent fueling amenities, such as pay-at-the-pump, clean nozzles, etc.

6. The resistance to change mentality.
 
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eyetdiman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Location
Wilmette, IL
TDI
'04 Passat TDI Sedan
Totally agree. There has to be something a little bit different operating in the person who wants a diesel. Kinda reminds me of the movie, "Me you and everyone we know.";)

Not for the main, or even sidestream American. We diesel lovers have our own special body of water...and...for those TDI'ers among these diesel lovers, well, we even have our own private stock.:D
 

cmitchell

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Location
Central Oregon
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS black / black leather
Let's also not forget that diesel still costs considerably more than regular gasoline. A lot of people won't be able to get past this fact when it comes time to plunk down a chunk of cash for a new vehicle. Heck... I'm still having a hard time paying 50 cents more for my car's fuel than my wife has to pay for hers. Ain't fair...! And I don't think (my opinion) that it's going to get any better in the near future.
 

milleraw

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Location
New London, PA
TDI
2010 JSW Silver, Portos, Roof / 2010 JSW Candy White
cmitchell said:
....I'm still having a hard time paying 50 cents more for my car's fuel than my wife has to pay for hers.
Come on guys.....your getting more energy per unit volume.

Go calculate the important numbers...pennies per mile for the two vehicles. That should make you feel better.

I do remember the good old days of sub $1.00 per gallon prices. That and a diesel rabbit that got 50MPG got me through college.
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
Crunch the real numbers before saying anything.

Costs of diesel vs gas = Not much real difference compared to the true life of the engine

Fuel = Not much difference considering the mileage of diesel vs gas. Remember if the gas uses a turbo it will require premium which is right at diesel costs.

Fuel savings will help pay for maintainence that needs done even if you have a gas car.

The longer life will equate to loads of savings over the life of the vehicle.

Loads of power are found in both cars. Again, longer life in diesels.

I've done the math and added in the maintaince as well and the diesel comes out on top in all areas.

If you just gotta have a watchwinder then get one. They are good as well.

gottdi :D
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
cmitchell said:
Let's also not forget that diesel still costs considerably more than regular gasoline. A lot of people won't be able to get past this fact when it comes time to plunk down a chunk of cash for a new vehicle. Heck... I'm still having a hard time paying 50 cents more for my car's fuel than my wife has to pay for hers. Ain't fair...! And I don't think (my opinion) that it's going to get any better in the near future.
Diesel doesn't have to cost more. In fact, it should cost LESS than regular gas right now, as it used to cost less some years ago. The fact the oil companies and/or fuel stations decide to price it higher can always be changed. How to motivate that change, I don't know. Me being me I'd prefer a forceful method (to bring fuel prices where they should be overall), but cooler heads may find a better way.
 

OdinsRageSS

Banned
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
gottdi said:
Don't forget the high resale value of the diesel vs gas. That alone is a very high value savings.
gottdi :D

dont forget i paid like a HUGE premium for my 04 golf, i paid 16,000 in nov. 05 with 34k on it, cheapest one i could find, and pretty much the only one. Sticker was like 17,600 or somethign....
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
Yes and you could turn it around and get more for it out here. That means you made cash. Hunt for the deals and be very patient. Out here 01 TDI Beetles go for between 12,000 to 14,000 depending on mileage. Usually most are up to 180,000 miles. Some with just over 100000 miles will fetch closer to $14,000. That is here. Where you are at I am not sure what the market demand is for used TDI's. I was 6 months patient and got a good deal. Still better than purchasing a new vehicle that will loose $8000 off the lot. So I go find one that is used for $8000 to $10000 less than new with a few good break in miles and I have my new car. $8000 savings is big.
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
TDI
Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
All this is good for is a reason for big oil to keep the price of fuel high. back in the 70s diesel sold for half what high test sells for Now cost around the same. What good is it to get more diesel cars here and then pay 2 times the price of gas for it you can bet they will jack the price on up as soon as they can get away with it. makes not sense to me, But then I am just a poor hillbelly from WV trying to save a buck. My next car is a horse.
 

devonutopia

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
Devon, U.K
TDI
PD300 Skoda Fabia
Vive la (diesel) revolution!

Always been into my diesels, since I was about 18 - Now almost 27 and still love them. Admittedly a powerful petrol will always sound better but TDIs give such good bang for your buck - last longer, better economy.

And that A8 is lush! I'd have one if I was a little more wealthy - although in that price bracket I'd be steering more toward the W10 Touareg,
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
I must be fortunate, since around here, all of the diesel stations have "pay at the pump." I've forgotten what its like to go to a truck stop without it.

TM
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
All this is good for is a reason for big oil to keep the price of fuel high
Back in the 70's we did not have the Enron Mentality. Yes it is the exact reason diesel has risen in price. And with the advent of hybrid cars and more fuel efficent diesels and gas cars it will continue to rise because they do not want to loose the power or status quo of the super fat wallets. They only look at now and how to fatten the wallet. Big Gas! The ultimate Scam job. My next car is a bicycle with an electric motor. At least I can charge it up via the sun with our 7.2 KW solar panels. Enough to power the house and an electric car or two and a bike. That is where I'd like to go. I intend to add more panels as the funds allow. Now to get efficent batteries or fuel cells.

gottdi :D
 
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debensey

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Location
Houston, Texas
cp said:
Granted they should, but here's why I think Americans probably WON'T fall in love with diesels:
1. The additional cost of a diesel engine while simultaneously getting to pay more for diesel fuel than premium unleaded.
2. The requirement that you actually pay attention to the maintenance of a diesel. Americans love to go to Jiffy Lube and remain ignorant of what's in the crankcase.
3. The stigma of diesels from the black '80's. Only fools were perceived to have bought diesels back then. Fool me once....
4. Most Americans who have never owned a diesel don't have the requisite self-esteem to break with their gas-engine suburbanite pack.
5. The lack of equivalent fueling amenities, such as pay-at-the-pump, clean nozzles, etc.
6. The resistance to change mentality.
1. The additional cost of a diesel engine while simultaneously getting to pay more for diesel fuel than premium unleaded.
I don’t know about the prices where you are, but where I am diesel is a little cheaper than premium unleaded. And that is winter time prices. In summer, diesel is less than regular, when heating oil demand is lowest.
2. The requirement that you actually pay attention to the maintenance of a diesel. Americans love to go to Jiffy Lube and remain ignorant of what's in the crankcase.
You’ve got a good point there. But that would change if Jiffy Lube had to pay attention to the needs of diesel owners. If there were more diesels, JL would have to adjust or lose business to those who do.
3. The stigma of diesels from the black '80's. Only fools were perceived to have bought diesels back then. Fool me once....
This is exaggerated. Only people my age or older remember the GM diesels of the 70s and 80s.
4. Most Americans who have never owned a diesel don't have the requisite self-esteem to break with their gas-engine suburbanite pack.
That may be your strongest point. A bigger factor is that most folks can’t get the vehicle they want with a diesel. Make the diesel minivans, SUVs and etc and they will come.
5. The lack of equivalent fueling amenities, such as pay-at-the-pump, clean nozzles, etc.
I call BS on this one. I haven’t pumped diesel in a year or two at a station that wasn’t pay at the pump.
6. The resistance to change mentality.
Give ‘em the vehicles they want w/ diesels and they will buy.
 

debensey

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Location
Houston, Texas
cmitchell said:
Let's also not forget that diesel still costs considerably more than regular gasoline. A lot of people won't be able to get past this fact when it comes time to plunk down a chunk of cash for a new vehicle. Heck... I'm still having a hard time paying 50 cents more for my car's fuel than my wife has to pay for hers. Ain't fair...! And I don't think (my opinion) that it's going to get any better in the near future.
If you are paying .50 more per gallon, you should move, or get your state to stop taxing diesel so much.
 

debensey

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Location
Houston, Texas
Birdman said:
All this is good for is a reason for big oil to keep the price of fuel high. back in the 70s diesel sold for half what high test sells for Now cost around the same. What good is it to get more diesel cars here and then pay 2 times the price of gas for it you can bet they will jack the price on up as soon as they can get away with it. makes not sense to me, But then I am just a poor hillbelly from WV trying to save a buck. My next car is a horse.
If you think "big oil" is setting the price of fuel, you are self deluded. Fuel prices are a function of world prices for petroleum. The world's petroleum is controlled by governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Venzuela, Russia, etc, not by US or European oil companies. The prices are set by world demand and supply. Demand is increasing in China, India and other developing countries, while some nations that were oil exporters are now becoming oil importers, (China, Indonesia, UK, etc) The simple fact is that cheap oil is gone forever.

That is reality. You can accept it or stick you head in the sand. Either way, expect to pay more in the future.

Just don't go voting for some dishonest politician who promises you that he or she can get you cheap gas by screwing the oil companies. They are lying to you to sucker you into voting for them. If you are fool enough to believe that, you really are "just a poor hillbelly from WV" who is just too dirt stupid to understand the basic facts of the world you live in.
 

cp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
5. The lack of equivalent fueling amenities, such as pay-at-the-pump, clean nozzles, etc.
I call BS on this one. I haven’t pumped diesel in a year or two at a station that wasn’t pay at the pump.
You're lucky. Two of the places I frequent most often not only do you have to go inside to pay, there is no canopy over the pump.
 

cp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Saudi Arabia is not causing the price of diesel to vary by 25 cent per gallon across town, nor is it causing the price to vary 80 cents from state-to-state. Some oil executives are on record as saying they deliberately boosted prices post-Katrina to "curb demand." Well, it didn't, because, for one thing, the demand for diesel is, for all practical purposes, inelastic. But it did have the expected side effect of filling their coffers from which they will draw, I'm sure, handsome bonuses that would set any normal person for life. But that will just tide them over until next year.

Poor old starving Exxon(I think). Their CEO had been on the job a whopping 12 years and is leaving with a mere $500 million. A half a billion for one Ivy League, lunchbox-carrying slob that, in all likelihood, never invested so much as one dime of his own money in the company. One wonders what he'd have drawn if he'd stayed for 25 years, like a normal employee.

Where does the money come from to do things like that in a competitive, market-driven economy? Why is the price from station to station, and brand to brand, always exactly the same? Isn't there ONE fuel company that can make fuel a penny cheaper than the others, or unlike ANY other industry, are all companies costs exactly the same? Why does the price always change simultaneously at all the stations? Somehow, that smacks of a price fixing oligopoly, not an open competitive market.
 
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cmitchell

Veteran Member
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Jun 8, 2002
Location
Central Oregon
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS black / black leather
debensey said:
If you are paying .50 more per gallon, you should move, or get your state to stop taxing diesel so much.
I can only hope you're not serious about moving because of fuel costs. How much would it cost to find a new job and a new house in a place where diesel fuel costs a few pennies less? Plus I really can't think of a place with "cheap" fuel prices that I'd care to live. Oregon taxes diesel only a few more cents than gasoline.
 

cmitchell

Veteran Member
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Jun 8, 2002
Location
Central Oregon
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS black / black leather
debensey said:
1. The additional cost of a diesel engine while simultaneously getting to pay more for diesel fuel than premium unleaded.
I don’t know about the prices where you are, but where I am diesel is a little cheaper than premium unleaded. And that is winter time prices. In summer, diesel is less than regular, when heating oil demand is lowest.
This just isn't true here. Diesel is 20 cents more than premium unleaded. It is NEVER... that's right NEVER... yes I did say NEVER less than gasoline. Not in the winter, spring, summer, or fall. I've never once in my 3.5 years of TDI ownership paid less for diesel than I would have paid for regular. I just don't buy that winter time / summer time price difference anymore. It used to happen 10 years ago when I was driving diesels, but not now. My point was that most people won't get past this price difference when they go to buy a new car. If diesels are to ever make a comeback in this country the price of diesel will have to be close to or equal to the price of regular gasoline. It's rare for a day to go by that someone doesn't doesn't "rib" me about what I have to pay for diesel. Gas has come up a bit now, but back around Christmas I saw a station in an east Portland suburb selling regular for $1.89. The same station was selling diesel for $2.79. Premium was $2.09 as I recall. Now tell me who's going to buy a diesel car (other than a die-hard diesel fan) with prices like that?
 

MrMopar

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Location
Bloomington, IL
TDI
none
I'm sure the Audi A8 TDI is a nice vehicle indeed, but what about affordable diesel transportation for the middle-class?

When you purchase a $100,000 vehicle, I'm sure fuel costs isn't too much of a factor and the maker can also eat some of the cost of the more expensive diesel engine. When John Q. Public lays out his hard earned money, he's ususally shopping for a much cheaper vehicle. That's got to include total cost of ownership.

If VW (and other companies) want to expand diesel marketshare in this country, they're going to have to move into the $14,000 starting price bracket. The Jetta TDI starts at about $21,000, the (old style) Golf not much cheaper. I can go spend $15,000 on a Honda Civic, Chevy Cobalt, Ford Focus, or Dodge (insert replacement for the Neon) and come out ahead on total cost of ownership.

Emissions requirements have the fuel economy advantage of a diesel eroding against gasoline engines - witness the TDI going from 49mpg highway (2003 Jetta Wagon TDI, manual 5 speed) to it's current figure of 41mpg (2006 Jetta TDI, manual 5 speed). A 16% decrease in fuel economy in just 3 model years - isn't progressing technology supposed to increase fuel economy? The new Honda Civic and Toyota Yaris both post 40mpg highway figures with gasoline engines, at much lower price points.

I know that someone will jump in and point out how the Jetta is a much more solid vehice as far as driving dynamics are concerned, and how it's easier to drive the torque provided by the TDI. Average people don't see that when they buy a new vehicle.

Unless manufacturers can produce and profitable and reliable diesel vehicle for the economy car class, I don't see diesel market share ever increasing in the United States.
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
The issue of gas vs diesel may not be under the control of the makers but of the BIG OIL/GAS. Selling gas produces much higher revenue and excellent mileage diesels won't allow that so the incentive is for producing gas at least here in the good ol USA. It's too bad but it is a reality of hollywood mentality of the USA. Just gota have those gass guzzler tanks that do 0 to 60 in 10seconds or less just to go to the corner store to pick up the milk. I am sure the diesel technology is there to produce a very good mileage engine with plenty of power and long life with low maintaince costs that will be within the realm of the average car buyer.

Now as for cars in the 14,000 range starting. Now add in the goodies you want and your 14,000 car is now 21,000. What's the diff?

I can start with the same base vw base model and keep it with in reason. $21,000 for a very good quality car that can last you 15 years of excellent service is cheap. Sure I could go buy the latest and greatest (maybe not) and spend 18.000 but the life will only be 8 years and now I gota go get another for 18,000 and now I have spent 32,000 for two cars when 21,000 for one would last longer. Do the math. Do some serious number crunching and you will see. The cheapest is not always the best and over the course the cheaper car may just have higher maintaince costs that you don't know about because the car is not real quality. Most low cost cars are throw away cars anyway so I'd rather spend a bit more. Also why not just buy a car that is only 2 years old for half the cost of a new one and take real good care of it and it will last another 12 years of excellent driving. Then go buy another one that is two years older than the current new for half the cost and you now have spent for 24 years of driving pleasure the price of 1 new car. That is smart and keeps the price in range of everyone. That will come out in your number crunching. Even if you don't keep a two year old car for that long it's cheaper anyway. Don't harbor the mentality that I gota have the latest and greatest but still must have new. If you want new thats fine. Spend the money for a good one. Again do the numbers.

Sorry for the ramble but the numbers speak loudly.

gottdi :D :cool:
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
Audi A8 TDI
Well I would venture to say that a car like this is never going to be a car for John Q Public. If you can afford it go for it. if not go get John Q Public car for 14,000.

It's rare for a day to go by that someone doesn't doesn't "rib" me about what I have to pay for diesel.
Ok, do you tell them that even though you pay a touch over premium that you get more than double the mileage they do. Now who pays more for gas! You could even have diesel doubled in price and still come out on an equal keel as your gasser friends. So whats that about fuel prices that will keep them from becoming mainstream!

gottdi :D
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
(old version)



That what you're looking for, in a TDI (note: the facelift gives it different lighting, but it's still the same car)?
 

scrubber

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
Happy Valley, OR
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI
just my $0.02 on a couple of these.
1. People shouldn't buy diesels as a money-saving venture.
At best, you'll probably break even with a comparable gas engine.
They should be purchased for consuming less fuel, longer range, fun to
drive, to use biodiesel, etc.
3. the 1970's...I have a funny story about this. When I was a kid, my dad
had a 1977 Cadillac Seville diesel. A lot of his friends had them, too,
and they were going through engines every 20-30k miles. His motor
eventually had to be replaced, too--at 170k miles! I asked him what was up with all the other people having problems, and he said "people don't know how to drive diesels". He eventually traded that in on a Toyota Cressida, rated as one of the most trouble-free cars at the time.
That engine was overhauled at 100k.
Anywho, some TV marketing by VW and Mercedes would be helpful.
I'm amazed that to this day, people still come up to me and say they
weren't aware that you could get a diesel-powered passenger car.
 

Old Navy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 15, 2001
Location
Ozark Hill's in Missouri, USA
TDI
None now, .
gottdi said:
Ok, do you tell them that even though you pay a touch over premium that you get more than double the mileage they do. Now who pays more for gas! You could even have diesel doubled in price and still come out on an equal keel as your gasser friends. So whats that about fuel prices that will keep them from becoming mainstream!

gottdi :D
If I can change a local College professor's mind that five years ago thought the diesel was the worst thing on the planet and that now is waiting for either Ford, GM, D/C or Toyota to bring a diesel car to market. Reason for those mfg's is because that's all that's in our town. He has come to realize the any other fuel source is a lifetime away, and has finally read enough about diesels (I send him articles all the time), heard me explain that only dummy's can't do the math when regular gas is $2.15 & diesel $2.40, what would you rather do drive a diesel car that 40% better mpg's and pay 10% to 15% more for fuel or drive the gasser that's a higher maintance vehicle. I have reminded him that diesels don't need tune-ups, have 10,000 plus mile oil changes and have a greater life span.

I think the thing that has finally convinced him is our Liberty CRD vs his Mountianeer 302 V8 that if babied can squease out 14 mpg driving 60 mph, while the CRD can easy more then double that at the same speeds. I would almost bet that cruising 60 mph on level highway the CRD would hit 34 mpg's once broken in and running 50 cetane B10 fuel as I do currently.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Difference in cost for "equivalent" gasser

scrubber said:
People shouldn't buy diesels as a money-saving venture.
At best, you'll probably break even with a comparable gas engine.
They should be purchased for consuming less fuel, longer range, fun to
drive, to use biodiesel, etc.
This is probably true except for certain circumstances. In general, a similarly priced gasser equivalent is only a penny or two more expensive per mile. See Edmund's True Cost to Own.

What happens, though, is for certain models, the diesel version is closer to the optional more powerful gasser, such as E320 CDI vs. E500, or the old 1.9 TDI vs. the 1.8 turbo. Nowadays, there are upgraded gassers in these cars that compare more favorably, but the differences in cost per mile were as much as 11 cents less for the diesel.

Also, if you put way more than 15,000 miles a year on the vehicle, after a while, the diesel probably wins big. The rise in fuel prices will also tilt the cost equation more toward diesel IMO.

TM
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Big oil wants to kill the auto diesel as a option

During the mid 80s big oil did everything it could to kill the high mpg diesel as an option in North America . Deals were made with the middle eastern oil big wigs to cut the price of energy to a low enough price to kill a high mpg diesel power plants as a option in the US . In 1985 every car maker sold the diesel option in every car & small truck in the US to meet the yearly required increases in CAFE standards .

After the piece of crap that was president in the mid 80s sold the US down the river and destroyed our energy policy , yearly increases in CAFE were dropped . Because of that fleet mpgs numbers dropped below late 70s fleet mpg numbers over the late 20 years . With no yearly CAFE standards increases within one year all diesel were gone from the US market as an option by the end of the 86 model year .

And during the 90s the republicans wrote every emissions law they could to regulate the diesel powered autos out of existance . And dam near did but VW figured out a way around the Tier 2 emissions limits to sell the TDIs over the last 2 years .

So now it seems that regulations didn't get rid of high mpg diesels so now they ( big oil ) are trying to price diesels out of existance at the pump .

If diesels every reach high %s of sales in the US big oil stands to loose billions . And as long as big oil is in the White House they will never let that happen .
 
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