ALH and BEW turbo actuator question

PDJetta

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No. The BEW uses a position feedback sensor and I also do not think the two mountings are interchangeable.

--Nate
 

nkgagne

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Er, not exactly. The actuator on the OE turbo is not designed to be replaceable. That part from idparts is for when you upgrade to a real turbo. (I still have the OE lol).
 

ctnatureboy

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ctnatureboy

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OK. Here is what I came up with:
It started out as: http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2054.

I removed the mounting bracket and heat shield assembly from the old actuator drilled two new mounting holes in it to accommodate the mounting studs on the new unit.

Cut off 60mm of the threaded rod end from the old actuator and made up a coupling which I used to adapt the threaded rod with and ultimately extend the new actuator shaft.

Add a couple nuts and ribbed lock washers for good measure and it's a direct bolt on.

The vacuum line fits but the port is in a different location so I cut the line just after the first bend and it fit perfectly.

The electrical connector is plug&play.

The result is that I am back on the road. I logged a boost pressure vs requested (VCDS measuring block 011) and I'm making good pressure but it's coming in late. I tried setting it with the Mityvac while the car was up on the stands and thought I had it but it seems I have some adjusting to do at the rod end that connects to the turbo.

If I come up with anything good on this I'll pass it along and if anyone else has experience or advice to offer, I'm all ears.

This could easily be a kit if there were interest as the alternative is financially prohibitive.

Thanks (for nothing) Borg Warner!
 
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josh8loop

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OK. Here is what I came up with:
It started out as: http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2054.

I removed the mounting bracket and heat shield assembly from the old actuator drilled two new mounting holes in it to accommodate the mounting studs on the new unit.

Cut off 60mm of the threaded rod end from the old actuator and made up a coupling which I used to adapt the threaded rod with and ultimately extend the new actuator shaft.

Add a couple nuts and ribbed lock washers for good measure and it's a direct bolt on.

The vacuum line fits but the port is in a different location so I cut the line just after the first bend and it fit perfectly.

The electrical connector is plug&play.

The result is that I am back on the road. I logged a boost pressure vs requested (VCDS measuring block 011) and I'm making good pressure but it's coming in late. I tried setting it with the Mityvac while the car was up on the stands and thought I had it but it seems I have some adjusting to do at the rod end that connects to the turbo.

If I come up with anything good on this I'll pass it along and if anyone else has experience or advice to offer, I'm all ears.

This could easily be a kit if there were interest as the alternative is financially prohibitive.

Thanks (for nothing) Borg Warner!






How many electrical connections are in the plug? 2, maybe 3?




..
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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You're right. It could be a kit. I usually discourage customers from trying this as I haven't seen much evidence that it will work. Looks like you did a nice job. I'll be interested to see if you can get it to boost the way you want.

I agree on the thanks for nothing from Borg-Warner. We have the VNT-17 in part because B-W dragged their feet in even releasing the KP-39 to the aftermarket. I guess in some ways they may have done us a favor, since we have the VNT-17 with the smart actuator as a result.
 

ctnatureboy

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Fail... (for now)

I checked the physical actuator setting again with a Mityvac and it's dead on. VCDS Measuring block 43, position 2 displays the positional feedback of the smart actuator. It should be low in the rest position and increase proportionally upon actuation. Turns out that the Garret actuator mecanical/pneumatic action is correct but the potentiometer output is an exact inverse to the unit that comes stock on the KP-39 (I can't figure out how this might possibly work if you just throw it on another turbo (and no. I'm not talking about the BRM turbo with the reverse action)). This means that it is telling the ECM that the turbo is in a physical position to provide full boost so it does not divert any vacuum to the actuator. This isn't something that can be adjusted by swapping wires on the outside and the only way I can see making this work is the open up the actuator and re-terminate the potentiometer which is likely not very possible. At this point I may give it a try with nothing to lose. It looks like I may be buying a new turbo soon to fix this anyway and it will come with the exact same actuator. Oddly the car does build full boost after ~3k RPM but I'm in over my head as I don't fully comprehend the ECM logic sequencing regarding this action.
 

ctnatureboy

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$1400 favor

Would someone with a BEW that still has the original Borg Warner KP39 turbo please check VCDS measuring block 43, position 2?

I'm specifically looking for the percent return value for the smart turbo vane actuator at rest and again at full stroke.


With eternal indebtedness,
Mike
 

DanG144

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0 vacuum -7% to 15%.
full vacuum 90-105%.
This is averaging from several actuators. The range was usually about 95 to 100% when subtracting no vacuum from full vacuum.

My own BEW is set up for 0 vacuum = 2%
full vacuum = 98%

I was afraid that you would have this issue. I do not think that simply swapping the wires externally will fix the problem. You may have some success going into the unit; I did not even try on my friend's car with the same actuator.
 

ctnatureboy

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Dan, THANK YOU!
I did pull and open-up the actuator this morning and to my <not> surprise it's not a conventional resistive potentiometer but a magnetic inductive pickup which pretty much makes this project a bust unless I can find a used actuator at a junk yard or if someone happens to have one laying around that they'd be willing to sell. For now I am going to try driving with the sensor disconnected and see if the default/limp mode map will give me better than NO boost until I can either source a replacement or cough-up a new turbo assembly.
 

cevans

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This is fascinating.

Would it be possible to test the actuator out of the car via resistance across two of the pins? I'll test the ones here and see if they behave differently.
 

ctnatureboy

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I did just that. The resistance value is static because you are only measuring the resistance of the pick-up head not of any potentiometer. For the record I have measured for a change in state (unpowered/unconnected (from the car)) across all combinations of pins and also to the chassis in case it was an NPN sensor using a Fluke 89 IV meter. I even took the liberty of reversing my test probes in case there was a diode that may be polarizing the output. I also plugged the sensor unit (without the actuator body) back into the harness and took a VCDS reading to absolutely confirm the action vs output. Short of redesigning the whole unit, which I have actually considered, I'm calling this a wash and m seriously considering selling the car as-is at this point. I love it to pieces and it ran so super sweet until now but this is likely going to get me into trouble since it's my only daily driver and I SHOULD be already be at work right now as I type this (Hint I'm NOT a VW tech). I would want to go the the Garret replacement but I've read stray thread that confirm this is not a point-for-point plug-and-play replacement. I don't have time for that. I just need my awesome car to run like it always has or I will likely be forced to move on. I'll gladly take input, advice, or offers at this point. Everything is on the table with this latest revalation.

P.S. I'm a robotics/industrial automation engineer by trade with a specialty in 3D CAD modeling and a formal electrical education. If there are any fascinated vendors or sponsors that are interested in brainstorming a real solution for this I am all ears.
 

jsrmonster

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You can turn the circuit board upside down and switch wires 1&3 in the connector and make this work. Currently working on sw solution to reverse duty cycle calibrations, or obtain correct smart actuator from garrett. Don't call me(or Idparts) or ask about this, I am still working on it, I will post results in 2 weeks. I have fixed a hand full of these with success, and I am installing on on a BRM tonight. The BEW is very forgiving of the incorrect calibration and will run ok, but the BRM is not!

Jeff
 
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DanG144

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Jeff,
I knew you were working on this, but hesitated to post and bring bother to you. Thank you for your efforts. I have not worked as an electronics tech in more than 35 years. Transistor circuits were the latest I was familiar with...

Thank you for the hard work at the GTG.
Dan
 

ctnatureboy

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You can turn the circuit board upside down and switch wires 1&3 in the connector and make this work.
Jeff
I am going to do this tonight after work. I didn't believe that simply flipping the sensor over would work but after reviewing the technical documentation in the link you posted, I see how this would be possible. I may try to pull the sensor from the board and flip it so I don't have to change the wiring on the harness.

Jeff: Do you think that the distance from the magnet field flux to the sensing face created by simply flipping the sensor over [resultant deviation = (sensor thickness*2) + board thickness (which accumulates to almost a quarter of an inch)] might be what's giving you the problems on the BRM appliciation?
 

Evil-Diesel

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Being the first BEW to run a garrett vnt turbo, I ran my hybrid vnt20 without the actuator sensor. Boost was still controlled fine. (Kerma did a great job in doing so. He knows how to tune BEWs without the sensor. I am now running my turbo with it again, but its unplugged and not working and still have proper boost control. So if anything, you can run an alh actuator on a bew turbo. im the proof. just have it properly tuned.
 

ctnatureboy

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Uncle! I give up!

I was able to remove the circuit board with the sensor on it



from the actuator sensor body



and successfully remount it upside down (sensor facing up). This is NOT a task for the faint of heart, those short on fine component level tools, or anyone who so much as knows someone who is 'all thumbs'. There are lots of little traces and components on the board in very close proximity to where all the work happens. Note that the guide posts are 'keyed' with different diameters so you cannot accidentally put the board on upside down. The smaller of the guide holes on the board had to be drilled out. I did put the assembly back on the harness and confirm the action vs readout before reassembling and re-installing everything (including cutting the wires in the harness on the car just before the connector and swapping positions 1 and 3) and noticed a couple of things.

1: As I deducted in the previous post the card and sensor thickness are working against this procedure n a negative way in that when the unit is flipped it's home position relative to the magnets is ~ 0.154" (4mm) closer.

2: The result of observation 1 is the cause the second observation which is that the readout/output cannot be zeroed. At it's lowest/resting position is 12.7%

Whatever was going on in there made the car do all kinds of undesirable things like underboost until around 2500 RPM and then under hard acceleration runs shoot WAY over the requested.

End of the day; I'm done. I just need to drive the car and this is a small science project that I cannot afford to fund, financially or time-wise. IT can probably be fixed with some machining at the card mounting area or a tune but I just want it to be stock and to work every day. I have kids and don't want them pushing the car off the road because Daddy is curious about what would happen if I just did this or that.

I was ready to buy a new KP39 just to harvest the actuator off of it and set the rest of the turbo aside until I actually needed it (or someone else did the footwork to develop a reliable solution for this mess) when I got an email response from someone that just happen to have a few good actuators just laying around in their garage... Needless to say, at this point, I am going to angle for the best one in the bunch and call it a day. When I get the replacement I'd be happy to donate the new/modified unit for development purposes. Speak up and I'll send it off to you when the time comes if you're genuinely interested.
 

turbocharged798

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This doesn't make sense, there is already a how-to on using a garett actuator on a stock KP39 and the VNT17 should be plug and play with the KP39. I don't understand how the actuator sensor would be reversed. Did you get a BRM actuator or something?
 

ctnatureboy

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I agree with you in post #10
Turns out that the Garret actuator mecanical/pneumatic action is correct but the potentiometer output is an exact inverse to the unit that comes stock on the KP-39 (I can't figure out how this might possibly work if you just throw it on another turbo (and no. I'm not talking about the BRM turbo with the reverse action)).
I am no parts verification expert so I only relied on the description here:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2054&osCsid=4702qgbv2q0rc2h6eopmhihp74

Which stated that it's for the A4/BEW (which to me means the action and sensing must be correct) but will not fit the KP39 (I thought I fixed that part with the bracket and rod extension) or the BRM (which should be reverse action/sensing. This last one throws me for a loop since I would figur that both the action and sensing would be backwards, not one and not the other.

Please, feel free to give me a good stiff sanity check and tell me I missed (or misunderstood) something.

Edit/Addition:

The only how-to I found was this one that I listed early on. After things started to go awry I checked out kballtdi and turns out he joined a few months ago, made 4 posts in 1 string total inside of 3 days and then went quiet, not making so much as a login after that.

When jsrmonster started saying he was on to something but not to contact him or IDParts about it and posting data sheets for the chip sensor mounted to the circut board and also claiming success I figured kballtdi was on the wrong track (or started off with a different new actuator than I did. I tried posting in this how to thread and PMing him but no response).

Anybody have other input that can clear this up?
 
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DanG144

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We also noted the reverse action of the input, when running one of these turbines/actuators on a BEW.
We tried swapping all the input wires around to get the proper reading - no joy. That is why I knew it was not that simple.
 

ctnatureboy

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Not simple but possible, as outlined in my previous post. I did get it to read in the correct direction, but without surgery, can't get it to go below 12.7%.

All things being equal, I'll be setting money aside for a whole new turbo assembly with the expectation that sooner or later the whole deal will go south and I'm really just biding my time with a replacement actuator.
 

josh8loop

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I am not at all familiar with these particular types of smart actuators but is it possible to change the magnet in relation to the sensor? Sounds like the action on the smart positioner is correct it just doesn't go as low as it needs to go right? You already flipped the circuit board which gained you .154" perhaps you can gain the rest by tweaking the magnet a bit.


After reading things through a bit again, I have another thought that I would like to develop. Quick question....In your opinion does the sensor assembly participate in a travel stop function at all?


Looks like the full extension is limited by the internal actuator can design, and i'm wondering if the retracted travel stop (if it's integrated in the positioner) can be tweaked a bit putting the magnet in a more proper relation to the hall effect sensor.
 
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ctnatureboy

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Josh,
The magnets are overmolded into a slide/carriage. to change their position would be quite difficult and resource intensive.
The sensor, mounted to the circuit board also has a position that would be quite difficult to adjust since the pins from the connector body where it is seated are overmolded into the mounting surface.
Once I receive, install, and confirm the original replacement actuator and I have the luxury of being more liberal with the Garrett unit.


Since 0% is at the full extend position all I want to do is move the magnets or sensor 4 mm more in that direction. Doing this at the component level appears prohibitive so the next opportunity is at the physical interface between the sensor assembly and the actuator assembly. The plan is to remove the two stroke retainers that look like little speed nuts on either side of the guide. This will allow the magnet overmold slide to travel beyond them in the extend direction. Since the actuator sensor is under spring preload in the fully assembled state, these clips are simply to hold everything together prior to final assembly at the factory and have no impact on as-assembled function.

Once the clips are out of the picture I can simply cut the prescribed amount (~4mm) off the beige colored button to get me back to 0% at assembled rest state. Of course the button is only ~2mm thick so it will be completely removed and the raw molding under it will be exposed. It may work short term but would probably require a protective crown of some sort to replace the button and keep it from wearing away. I can work that out when I get there.
 

ctnatureboy

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If it will vary linearly from 12 to ~100%, that should probably work fine.

I know of one guy with a stock BRM actuator that ranges from 20% up...
My boost graph looks like Mt. Everest... Without tune I'm can't seem to get just a little boost and seems to be a kind of too much or nothing at all proposition the way things are set-up now.
 
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