CR engine HPFP analysis

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The customer broke down a few blocks from the gas station after filling up.
Yes, because in the USA that is generally what we call places that sell gasoline, diesel, as well as morning lattes, bagels, chips, fruit, cancer sticks, soda, juice, donuts, lottery tickets, toys, washer fluid, and any other overpriced nonsense you can think of that you *might* need out of the blue whilst fueling your car. :p
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I don't believe you will find the words "additives are not required and not recommended" or any such similar words in the manual. The manual is truly silent on diesel additives.

Maybe you are recalling emails sent by VW Customer Care on using additives. Here's a post with my take on these emails.
I stand corrected.....I dug thru the owner's manual in my 2010 JSW TDI and I find no mention in the manual (on page 274) regarding additives for ULSD. It has all the dire warnings about using bio greater than B5 and about using incorrect fuel (i.e, gasoline, etc.). I agree, the owner's manual is silent on the issue of using commercially available diesel additives.

Whether you should use an additive or not? Your call. I am regularly using PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) with every tank in my 2010 JSW TDI.
 

flatout

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Jul 18, 2009
Location
NY
TDI
2009 JETTA
+1. That's exactly what I'm doing--adding 1 qt of B100 to each tankful, plus 4 oz of Power Service Diesel Kleen.
Where are you getting the B100? I would like to add a quart also. However, I can't find any. I am not far from you. I live in Lancaster, NY.
 

berserkerx

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Location
Utah
TDI
2011 Black Jetta Sedan
So reading through most of the thread it seems to me that a lot of people agree that it is a lubrication problem that "could" be causing the problem. A quick search on the net for me shows a total of 5 gas stations that sell B2, B5, and B20. I think I am going to fill up with B2 to help relieve a little bit of worry for myself.

Just food for thought. But it seems there is not an aftermarket HPFP available yet for the CR TDI. But if it is a lubrication problem there are piston skirt coatings that reduce friction along the cylinder walls would that be out of the question? Meaning take apart the pump and coat the rollers with this.
 

TonyJetta

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'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Something I just came across that may tease / point at an upgraded CP4. IIRC, >2009 TDI's are using CP4, correct?

Bosch Link.

Tony
 

Marlyece

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Location
Downers Grove, IL
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2010 Golf TDI DSG
Yes, because in the USA that is generally what we call places that sell gasoline, diesel, as well as morning lattes, bagels, chips, fruit, cancer sticks, soda, juice, donuts, lottery tickets, toys, washer fluid, and any other overpriced nonsense you can think of that you *might* need out of the blue whilst fueling your car. :p
If you want to be a legalist it's fueling station. I still refer to it as a gas station after all 99% of them do sell gas.
 

c17chief

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NJ
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2011 Golf 2dr
But if it is a lubrication problem there are piston skirt coatings that reduce friction along the cylinder walls would that be out of the question? Meaning take apart the pump and coat the rollers with this.
Even if that were the case, i'm sure it is not as simple as going to the store and dipping or painting stuff on, or even something you can send the parts off for ala jethot coatings and the like. I'm pretty sure that it's probably a proprietary part of the manufacturing process as far as your piston skirt example goes. Barring a new revision or another manufacturer making improved replacement pumps, I dont think there is a whole lot you are ever going to be able to do short of treating the fuel for propper lubricity.
 

woofie2

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Location
Republic of Southern Illinois
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Former TDI owner
So reading through most of the thread it seems to me that a lot of people agree that it is a lubrication problem that "could" be causing the problem. A quick search on the net for me shows a total of 5 gas stations that sell B2, B5, and B20. I think I am going to fill up with B2 to help relieve a little bit of worry for myself.

Just food for thought. But it seems there is not an aftermarket HPFP available yet for the CR TDI. But if it is a lubrication problem there are piston skirt coatings that reduce friction along the cylinder walls would that be out of the question? Meaning take apart the pump and coat the rollers with this.
Intersting concept, I wonder how low friction ceramic coatings, would work on the CAM and roller.

for that matter if they would help with cam wear on the ALH and BEW CAMs, and why more people have not tried these.
The low friction ceramic coatings work really well on transmission gears for reducing friction and wear.
 

berserkerx

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Location
Utah
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2011 Black Jetta Sedan
Even if that were the case, i'm sure it is not as simple as going to the store and dipping or painting stuff on, or even something you can send the parts off for ala jethot coatings and the like. I'm pretty sure that it's probably a proprietary part of the manufacturing process as far as your piston skirt example goes. Barring a new revision or another manufacturer making improved replacement pumps, I dont think there is a whole lot you are ever going to be able to do short of treating the fuel for propper lubricity.
Considering that people coat cams, transmissions, pistons, and a lot of other contact parts with this coating to reduce friction I would say that it has a good chance of working in conjunction with fuel lubricity.

Intersting concept, I wonder how low friction ceramic coatings, would work on the CAM and roller.

for that matter if they would help with cam wear on the ALH and BEW CAMs, and why more people have not tried these.
The low friction ceramic coatings work really well on transmission gears for reducing friction and wear.
Kelford cams will build any cam that you want to any spec and they will put that coating on the cams and and internal parts that you would like them too. I mean of course that comes with a price though.

I mention Kelford because they are renowned in the Mitsubishi world.

My reason for saying it could be friction is I have looked at other threads stating that there is nothing other than the pressure and the cam holding that roller in place. So if you wear that surface down and its tolerances for the cavity its placed in become to small it falls out.
 

Tms0425

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Aug 23, 2010
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Fort Wayne IN
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Sold - 2010 JSW TDI DSG
Here in Indiana we have a local company that sells "premium" diesel and posts a spec sheet. They drill locally, refine locally, and have their own distribution system (I didn't know the Midwest had oil reserves but we do). This is all I use in my car now. Check out this link. As far as other oil companies go, I haven't seen anything to indicate their premium product is any different that the regular diesel and until they prove it I won't buy it unless I have to.

http://www.countrymark.com/pdr.cfm
With the best of intentions I stopped in my local Countrymark. There was no one working there on Saturday, but they had a self service card swiper that ran all the pumps, so I surveyed the variety - Several B2, B20, "off road", and a couple of gas pumps. Being very new to the diesel thing, I swiped on one of the various B2 pumps and encountered my first "too large" nozzle. As it turned out all 6 of them were the large high flow ones, no car sized ones at all, so I could not fill and went away disappointed to my normal Shell station that has a single diesel pump, regular sized.
 

KILL CARB and the US EPA

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da Bronx
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2011 Golf 2.0 tdi CR 6 spd
this may be a roller skidding issue whats the roller riding in? Bronze bushed? lot of manufacturers are using ceramic pistons pumps. One more reason for a DPF delete and back to old reliable #2 off road better than 500 ppm sulfer When is the EPA gonna stop fvckin with my engines!!
 

jbright

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Location
Indianapolis
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2009 Jetta DSG
With the best of intentions I stopped in my local Countrymark. There was no one working there on Saturday, but they had a self service card swiper that ran all the pumps, so I surveyed the variety - Several B2, B20, "off road", and a couple of gas pumps. Being very new to the diesel thing, I swiped on one of the various B2 pumps and encountered my first "too large" nozzle. As it turned out all 6 of them were the large high flow ones, no car sized ones at all, so I could not fill and went away disappointed to my normal Shell station that has a single diesel pump, regular sized.
Was that the station in Constantine, Michigan? Because I was not able to fuel up there either on my vacation trip last month. I was there on a Sunday and no one was around at the station office. I could not get the card reader (some really old fashioned arrangement) to work. I ended up driving all the way to Traverse City and filling up at a Shell that advertised premium diesel (one advantage of having a 600+ mile range). The thing with CountryMark is they sell their fuel at farm co-ops which are not the most up to date when it comes to convenience. But the ones around Indianapolis are all modern gas station set ups with the card swipe pumps. Their fuel is great, however. No one else I know of in the US is producing a European grade diesel with a spec sheet.
 
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Tms0425

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Location
Fort Wayne IN
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Sold - 2010 JSW TDI DSG
Was that the station in Constantine, Michigan? Because I was not able to fuel up there either on my vacation trip last month. I was there on a Sunday and no one was around at the station office. I could not get the card reader (some really old fashioned arrangement) to work. I ended up driving all the way to Traverse City and filling up at a Shell that advertised premium diesel (one advantage of having a 600+ mile range). The thing with CountryMark is they sell their fuel at farm co-ops which are not the most up to date when it comes to convenience. But the ones around Indianapolis are all modern gas station set ups with the card swipe pumps. Their fuel is great, however. No one else I know of in the US is producing a European grade diesel with a spec sheet.
This one was in Ft. Wayne. I tried to just tap the lever and it splashed all over, so I didn't bother. Too bad as I was all set to give it a go. Tom
 

740GLE

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Aug 19, 2009
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NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
this may be a roller skidding issue whats the roller riding in? Bronze bushed? lot of manufacturers are using ceramic pistons pumps. One more reason for a DPF delete and back to old reliable #2 off road better than 500 ppm sulfer When is the EPA gonna stop fvckin with my engines!!
You won't be able to find 500ppm #2 pretty soon, isn't it something like begining of 2011 or something?
 

brads

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Aug 6, 1999
Location
Los Angeles
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2010 Golf TDI 6sp W/Euro GTD-LED tails Neuspeed flash + VCDS Mods
I mentioned the HPFP failure problem to the district factory rep after he was done looking at my 2010 TDI seat fabric problem and he said he had only ever seen one instance of a fuel system failure in a customer car and that it was because of gas in the diesel. I said what about all these other peoples complaints in the forums. His response was "People say what they think they need to in order to get their car covered under warranty."
I took that to mean that he thinks most customers are dishonest and are lying about what really happened.
I little upsetting to hear this if you ask me.
 

Derrel H Green

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Murrieta, California
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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Not the Truth . .

I mentioned the HPFP failure problem to the district factory rep after he was done looking at my 2010 TDI seat fabric problem and he said he had only ever seen one instance of a fuel system failure in a customer car and that it was because of gas in the diesel. I said what about all these other peoples complaints in the forums. His response was "People say what they think they need to in order to get their car covered under warranty."
I took that to mean that he thinks most customers are dishonest and are lying about what really happened.
I [A] little upsetting to hear this if you ask me.
:)

. . for sure. :eek:

He cannot recall the first one in this area? :confused:

You know, the PM magazine 'test car?':confused: Is he saying if that's the one he knows about
(Repaired by Santa Monica VW) that the editor of PM magazine (Ben Stewart)
'mistakenly put gasoline in it' way down in El Centro California and then was able
to drive it all that way from El Centro to the Santa Monica area before it quit? :confused:

I don't think so! :eek:

There have been others that I know about personally that I am not at liberty to name names of
give out details, but I do know about them and believe that they did in fact happen, and
most were not because of someone putting gasoline into their tank by mistake either.

It is indeed too bad that VW will not tell the truth and live up to and step up to the
plate and admit that there are indeed some problems with some of the HPFPs.


:D

D
 
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St.Hubbins

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Mar 16, 2010
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Nashville
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'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
so going by VW's "logic" every single fuel system failure should have a FULL tank of gasoline upon breakdown.
like it's been mentioned, you're not gonna get too far from the pump after poisoning your TDi with gas... seems like the fuel gauge would be a good indicator of whether or not the driver may have effed up royally.

sure seems like the company line for everything from fraying seats to song skip to HPFP is "never heard of THAT problem before" :0
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Even if you did mistakingly fill with gasoline, it should not cause a catastrophic $6500 meltdown of the entire fuel system. There have been plenty of VE and PD TDIs (and a few Sprinters) towed in here over the years after filling with gas. A simple drain, purge, etc. was all that was ever needed, and they motored right out the door without any further issue. The engine simply cannot run long enough to inflict any serious damage by misfueling.
 

silversx80

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RTP, NC
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2010 Salsa Red JSW
I posted this over in the MKV thread.

Here is an honest question from a new CR TDI owner, and what I feel is an elephant in the room.

How in the world do you get internal fuel system rust when there is no water in the system? The average chemical chain of petrodiesel is C(12)H(23). There may be some oxygen in the chains of some of the additives packages, but it'd have to release oxygen to the iron in a chemical reaction in order to rust, at least as shown in the pictures of the fuel pumps. Failure, according to VWoA, would have to be from chronic contamination. Rust in the system would be consistent with that.

I'm an engineer, so if anyone has an explanation they can use big words. Seems to me that it's possible, because of the USLD requirements, that having water contamination in the fuel is more likely. To add to that, the HPFP on the VW TDI may be much more sensitive to water contamination than other HPFPs from other manufacturers.

My solution is to pick a name brand station and use them for the life of the car. Since Shell is across the US of A, and close to me as well, I pick them. That way, if I see the issue and fuel contamination is blames, I can go to Shell and state that VW says their diesel was bad.
 

panzer

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Only comment I have regarding the Rep questioning the customer's honesty is to ask how many times has someone posted on this site about removing their mods when they go back to the dealer for service? How about asking a Guru how many times they've been lied to by a customer trying to get something for nothing?

We're on our own to figure out this problem. Dwesel and others are digging into these failures.
 

Lightflyer1

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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I'm no engineer and my big words are limited. Water is in the fuel itself at times. Contaminated along the delivery path somewhere probably. Emulsified and in its raw form.
 

Jack Frost

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2009 Clean Diesel
Although water is frequently present when rust forms, water does not cause rust. It is oxygen. One way that power engineers have of protecting boilers from rusting internally is to fill them with boiled water. As long as oxygen is not present, iron will not rust.

If what people are seeing in fuel filters is rust, it is either coming from outside the fuel filter, or the iron in the fuel filter housing is getting its oxygen molecules from the fuel, either chemically or in the dissolved form.

An alternate explanation is the brown stuff is some kind of algae or iron loving bacteria. They come in all colours. Given time, pressure, fuel rich in carbon and oxygen as well as the presence of trace amounts of water both dissolved and emulsified; all kind of strange chemistry could be going on. We could be looking at primitive life forms being created.

The bottom line is that if what we are seeing is biological activity, then it can't be responsible for HPFP failures. In fact, the extra slime might even help.:D
 

JSWTDIPilot

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Weschester, NY
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2010 JSW TDI
What about some sort of cavitation at high RPMs? Cavitation on a boat can chew a prop to pieces in seconds.

Maybe the Low Pressure pump doesn't supply enough fuel to the HPFP at high RPMs and the cam/roller cavitat?

Would this be possible given the vapor pressure of ULSD?
 

tcp_ip_dude

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Cape Fear area, NC
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2010 Jetta TDI Sedan
What about some sort of cavitation at high RPMs? Cavitation on a boat can chew a prop to pieces in seconds.

Maybe the Low Pressure pump doesn't supply enough fuel to the HPFP at high RPMs and the cam/roller cavitat?

Would this be possible given the vapor pressure of ULSD?

Very interesting angle. My chemistry background is way out of date so I won't comment on the feasibility of D2 permitting cavitation of the HPFP cam. But you are right, metal erosion due cavitation can be startlingly destructive. I encountered it on the impeller of a SeaDoo PWC, I bought it used and someone had put on an inappropriate aftermarket impeller unbeknownst to me. Over a summer of light use it eroded the stainless steel impeller so bad that it created a very noticeable vibration, which is how I found out about it.

I will add however, that of the few pictures I saw of the cam of a failed HPFP, none exhibited the same characteristics I saw on the impeller, where there were extremely eroded valleys, like what you see when water erodes rock, there was also significant pitting near the turbulent and laminar flow boundaries where the cavitation occurred. The patterns were very distinct and well defined.

This post is worth exactly $0.02

MLA
 
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JSWTDIPilot

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2010 JSW TDI
Very interesting angle. My chemistry background is way out of date so I won't comment on the feasibility of D2 permitting cavitation of the HPFP cam. But you are right, metal erosion due cavitation can be startlingly destructive. I encountered it on the impeller of a SeaDoo PWC, I bought it used and someone had put on an inappropriate aftermarket impeller unbeknownst to me. Over a summer of light use it eroded the stainless steel impeller so bad that it created a very noticeable vibration, which is how I found out about it.

I will add however, that of the few pictures I saw of the cam of a failed HPFP, none exhibited the same characteristics I saw on the impeller, where there were extremely eroded valleys, like what you see when water erodes rock, there was also significant pitting near the turbulent and laminar flow boundaries where the cavitation occurred. The patterns were very distinct and well defined.

This post is worth exactly $0.02

MLA

All you need to do is pit the DLC to start it chipping. From there, only normal use is then required to wear the softer steel below. You would then lose all of the cavitation wear patterns.

Too bad there is no way to test for this!
 

Rod Bearing

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Fort Worth
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Several
I'm still awaiting oilhammers answer that I asked about the spring pressures on the pumps he has, whether they are equal at rest [and or] what they are reading at max lift.

I'd like to know if there is a possibility that springs are randomly work hardening, thus creating higher loads on the roller, or, losing tension due to heat or material issues, thus allowing the piston to bounce or float.

The pump has constant filtered flow through it back to tank and a case pressure is maintained. Begs another question about the chicken or egg. Is a failure of the low side pressure/charge system (common on the cummins dodge) happening here too?
 

JSWTDIPilot

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2010 JSW TDI
The pump has constant filtered flow through it back to tank and a case pressure is maintained. Begs another question about the chicken or egg. Is a failure of the low side pressure/charge system (common on the cummins dodge) happening here too?
I was curious about that too. In the cutaway diagram of the HPFP, the return is filtered by a small filter disk. IMHO, it wouldn't take much to clog that filter disk. I can't imagine what a restriction would do if the solenoid could not meter fuel back to the main filter.
 
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