Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

naveed

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Propane injection/ Methanol water system

I was wondering if propane injection and a snow fuel system that injects methanol and water would work if you are running your car with wvo. I would like to add some power enhancements after the intake, exhaust, and chip but I'm not sure what the repercussions would be if the car is running on grease.
 

Crazy Memphis

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May 30, 2007
Location
Canada, Québec, Montreal
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VW Jetta TDI 2000
i don't know much on greaser and propane injector but....

your vege oil is in a tank under the hood ( if you are in north america), and your propane injector will need a propane tank that should be located in the glove compartment, or at the spare tire location.

both system are individual meaning that they shouldn't interfear with each other. the diesel that is mist (spray) by the injector nozzle will be replaced by your vegeoil or grease and the propane will be added on top of all this. if the vegeoil work the same way as your fuel, it mean that there will not be any probleme mixing both of them !!!
 

Racing_Rush

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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Water Methanol Injection Kits

I have a 2006 TDI with 5 Speed and I want to put a water injection kit on before I do a chip (its cheaper and I want some power now) I want a kit from a repuable dealer but I don't want to spend more than I need to.

What do the controllers do and are they nessesary? I know I have to inject after the turbo but what kind of nozzel? Is there anyone out there that can steer me in the right direction...

Thanks
 

devonutopia

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http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=306

I have the stage 2 kit about to go in my TDI next weekend. :) Controllers simply tell it what boost to start injecting, and what boost to be on full power. Inbetween is just progressive. Nozzles come with the kits - usually a choice. For a stock TDI I would say up to a single 175ml/min nozzle is sufficient. I'm going for a 225ml/min one myself.
 

hatemi

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I wouldnt even consider a kit without it. Thats the only way you get the most out of it.
 

TdiRacing

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2006 Jetta TDI Cup
Racing_Rush said:
I have a 2006 TDI with 5 Speed and I want to put a water injection kit on before I do a chip (its cheaper and I want some power now) I want a kit from a repuable dealer but I don't want to spend more than I need to.

What do the controllers do and are they nessesary? I know I have to inject after the turbo but what kind of nozzel? Is there anyone out there that can steer me in the right direction...

Thanks
You will get more power from the chip for the money, so a chip is a better way to go. The water meth should be one of the last power adders you do. IS more for cooling than power. Don't believe all the wild claims about power gains. You have to have the right conditions for it to make power. I have been testing this stuff for over a year and there is no majic. The chip and injection actually should go hand in hand. You just go adding these kits to a stock car, you will start messing things up. Be forewarned.
 

mojogoes

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mk3 tdi golf
Even though its true TDiRacing they don't want to hear / believe you they want the magic to happen and us peddling the conspiracy that it will not give the ultimate power output/s only fuels the fire..........lol.

Will work loads better for big rigs and drag diesel as they really need the efficient way these systems cool the intakes/engines from excessive heat.......or on our motors like tdiracing has said if you have mod going with 300+ whp and need to saith off high egt's etc.........someone like uurr StingrayRT / TDI RS.
 

KID A TDI

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2002 Jetta GLS TDI
Whitbread said:
This is a setup i'm considering but its a little on the expensive side. Regardless of that, there is a TON of good information on this page. Just make sure any young kids aren't around when you get towards the bottom haha. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
I didn't read all of your post and opened this at work lol. Good thing I'm already on the IT team ;)
 

dvldoc

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TdiRacing said:
You will get more power from the chip for the money, so a chip is a better way to go. The water meth should be one of the last power adders you do. IS more for cooling than power. Don't believe all the wild claims about power gains. You have to have the right conditions for it to make power. I have been testing this stuff for over a year and there is no majic. The chip and injection actually should go hand in hand. You just go adding these kits to a stock car, you will start messing things up. Be forewarned.

Hmmm really? How many dyno comparisons have you done? When you can pick up 30, 40, 60hp and 70+ lbs of tq with no other changes to a 4cly turbo diesel I would say that is adding power.

Lower EGT, lower intake temps, plus alcohol = power on a turbo diesel it's as simple as that. I think all the dynos we have put up of 4cly turbo diesels have proven that.

You guys are putting out some bad info without facts. Putting alcohol injection on a a stock vehicle messes thing up?? Can you provide the technicle data to back up that statement? I would like to know how lower engine operating temps, lower egts 70% reduction in emissions and almost zero carbon and soot buildup in the intake and EGR passegways cause harm to your motor. If you could provide specific photos, studies, articles to prove the statement it would be apprieciated by all members. Nothing worse than bad facts.

It's a fact that 4cly turbo diesels on average pick up more power percentage wise than there V8 cousins because the engines are less efficient as well as the turbos.

On average especially with newer common rail diesels alcohol injection will destroy most chip tunes and your not touching timing or increasing boost or EGT's. Put the them together then it's a whole different ball game. Some vehicles chips will egde out alcohol injection just because they don't have the largest nozzle in place they could run. But on average it will be around 10hp difference if you go mild on the nozzle size.

Here's a example. D4D 3.0 Fortuner (stock except for front mount intercooler) Now we will compare it to a Toyota Hilux running the same D4D engine with a top mount with a 2gph nozzle using rubbing alcohol and a 4gph nozzle using Gin, Yeah I said gin (90 proof).




Here is the Hilux once we installed a 4gph nozzle we could not keep it in 2nd gear to dyno because the hp and TQ increase were to much. Now if a gain of 45 wheel hp and 80lbs of TQ don't float your boat on a vehilce that makes only 145hp stock then I don't know what to say. Don't see to many chips on the market that can out do it as well. And not for $220USD.




Example of a vehicle that the chip beat out the alcohol injection, This unit only has a 1gph nozzle pre-turbo and a 3gph nozzle at the intake. Pre-turbo is pretty much vaporized as soon as it passes the turbo so really only 3gph.




Anouther prime example of alcohol injection.
This vehicle picked up big gains to a stock vehicle with a 2gph nozzle. Please feel free to post up dynos to show any chip with a similar gain. And this thing is 11 years old. 30hp and 84lbs of TQ @ 2000rpms is not exactly poor performance.

This particular vehicle added a 1gph nozzle pre-turbo and added anouther 11hp @ 2000rpms this month so Yeah it works.




A properly installed alcohol injection system with the right size nozzle and mix will either equal, surpass or be slighly under a chipped vehicle. Most of the time it close to the same or higher.

But if you have dyno test showing otherwise please feel free to post them up and about the documented negative side affects of adding this to a stock vehicle. Plus your (testing) methods ie dynos, egt monitoring, timing, acceleration, 1/4 mile times, turbo spool times, you know real data and (right conditions to make power). Because I have been doing this for a long time and on 1000's and 1000's of vehicles worldwide and my testing says something totaly different. Please let everyone know what they should be (forwarned) about.

Sorry for the rant, but if you make a statement it should be based on your own testing and facts not copy and pasted from the internet or wika or based off of assumption. And yes the old devil is also a ASE Certified Mech for almost as long as I have been in the military 15 years.

I'll let the forum members be there own judge.
 
Last edited:

Satiro

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Aug 3, 2006
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Spain
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IBIZA 1.9TDI 110hp AFN 1998
Is there any negative effect for to install it? longevity? how many miles is possible to do with a 5L meth/water bottle?
 

dvldoc

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There are zero negatives to a properly installed system, Consumption is based on your set points, driving style, and nozzle size. But a D04 nozzle and setting it to come on at around 9 to 10psi then consumption should not be very high and should last you a few hundred miles of driving.

And your vehicle still remains completely stock, Same boost, same timing, same fueling, No added stress to your turbo, (lower EGT), no maxing out stock injectors, Lower emissions, you don't get much greener than reducing your emissions 60% to 80%, and the fact your keeping the internals almost completely soot/carbon free. Even with the system off your car will run better just do to that fact. I'm sure you've all seen the soot packed intakes and EGR passageways, That is eliminated with the system. You can expect longer turbo life, and longer engine life due to less wear.

There is no magic to alcohol injection it works on the basics of the the chemical process of internal cumbustion engine. It's simple but very effective.
 

fenwick458

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England
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'12 T5 Van
questions:

where do i mount the injector(s)?

can i hook it up to my washer bottle(5.5l and i don't have h/lamp washers)?

does it need wiring to the cockpit?

if i get sick of filling up with or run out of water/meth can i just unplug it and turn it off?
 

devonutopia

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Location
Devon, U.K
TDI
PD300 Skoda Fabia
fenwick458 said:
questions:

where do i mount the injector(s)? IN THE INTERCOOLER PIPEWORK. METAL WORKS BEST BUT SHOULD BE OK IN TOUGH PLASTIC

can i hook it up to my washer bottle(5.5l and i don't have h/lamp washers)? YES - YOU CAN ADAPT WASHER BOTTLE TO FIT THE PUMP, AND WATER/METH WORKS FINE AS SCREENWASH TOO

does it need wiring to the cockpit? YES - THERE IS AN ARMING SWITCH THAT I WILL MOST LIKELY LEAVE ON

if i get sick of filling up with or run out of water/meth can i just unplug it and turn it off? - AS ABOVE - WITH ARMING SWITCH OFF IT WON'T INJECT. IT WILL TAKES A WHILE TO USE 5.5 LITRES. DOES YOUR CAR HAVE A WASHER BOTTLE LEVEL SENSOR? MINE DOES, BUT I'M USING THE SUPPLIED BOTTLE SNOW PERFORMANCE SENT ME. :)
As above
 

DbLog

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Royal Oak, MI
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2011 335d
Dvldoc,
Do you have any 1.9 or 2.0 TDI dynos with your setup? Not trying to bash you but I'm not to hip on the diesel minivan scene. If your kits can take a 150hp TDI to 180hp or a 90hp TDI to 120hp I would be very impressed. Seems mine is only good for about half that. Maybe I need a larger nozzle.
 

Mach1

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Water injection is usually for EGT control.

water/meth is for more power..

Meth is not a good fuel for diesels, YES it will work for fuel, just the engine/ECM is not tuned to run the engine on METH..Its tuned to burn diesel Right????

And a Mark V(which I have 2 of, modified), I would consider water injection when I start getting a little more mods on mine as I am in Texas and could use the cooling effects..

A Tune is a good place to start, then an exhaust/intake, then maybe water injection or turbo.

Just my order.
 

dvldoc

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DbLog said:
Dvldoc,
Do you have any 1.9 or 2.0 TDI dynos with your setup? Not trying to bash you but I'm not to hip on the diesel minivan scene. If your kits can take a 150hp TDI to 180hp or a 90hp TDI to 120hp I would be very impressed. Seems mine is only good for about half that. Maybe I need a larger nozzle.
With at least 10 4cly turbo diesel dynos from different makes, models, It should show you the difference in 4cly turbo diesel engine performance. What kit and nozzle size are you using. If your using under 4gph you might not feel the seat of the pants difference. VW TDI's like 4gph to 5gph.

Because 20hp to 30hp on a common rail 4cly is pretty easily done. When asking for dynos people are kind of skimpy on them. Hopefully we can get you some soon.

@ Mach1.

Meth is not a good fuel for diesels, YES it will work for fuel, just the engine/ECM is not tuned to run the engine on METH..Its tuned to burn diesel Right????
Were did you get the information that methanol is not good for diesels? It burns cleaner and allows a diesel to burn the wasted fuel that it is injecting, This is part of the emission reductions as well as the cylinder temperature drop.

Methanol of course is not a primary fuel for a diesel just like propane would not be used for a primary fuel, But when used for the proper percentage in the proper mix then there is no engine damage. If you like 20% to 15% unburnt diesel fuel which is what you have in your basic diesel engine that that is up to you. The significant reduction in emissions and black smoke from adding as little as 13% alcohol is one of the main causes of this reduction. The alcohol allows for the almost 99% burn of fuel.

If you produce a technical article of how say how a 30/70 163ml/min of methanol or any other alcohol added to a diesel engine will induce damage or interfere with the chemical process of internal combustion. Most people still don't really knows what goes on inside there engine. I would invite everyone to look up internal combustion's true process before making claims or statements.

2nd fact diesels are much more sturdy engines than gas engines, there is a reason gas engines can run E85 and a reason diesels can add water and alcohol to increase power and use as a alternate source of fuel and increase the cetane rating. Engines are made of glass and are not going to grenade from the right things to make them run more efficiently.

If anyone can find one techincal article that shows, reduced cylinder temps, EGTs, carbon buildup, soot buildup, complete fuel burn are harmful to a diesel engine I would like to see it. Also what specific (bad) we are talking about, I.E internal damage (specific) the only thing alcohol injection can do is blow a head gasket or burn a whole in a piston if you use it in high consentrations in a diesel engine, (Greater than 50/50) Most people who have had any engine issuse have pushed there tunning to far with there chip and timing and went with to much alcohol. It takes a whole lot to kill or internally damage a diesel. I would be a little more worried about soot/carbon covered valves, and intake tracks and high EGT's, and coking those are the things that kill diesels.

If you guys are not aware water/alcohol injection is used in the marine industry on engines worth 100,000's of dollars and it's for a reason, they run better, cooler, and more fuel efficient, Feel free to google away.
 

dvldoc

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fenwick458 said:
my top IC hose is silicone! would it be ok in the race pipe?
Race pipe will work fine, If you have really thick silicone then you might want our inside mount nozzle since it is longer. The neoprene bonded waesher seals is air tight.
 

Mach1

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Pane does all the things you describe of meth..

You forgot to mention that water collects in the crankcase by blowing by the rings, have you done your homework and do an OA to check this.

Pane is good in small quanities and bad in large doses.

Because pane extends the burn time, which advances the burn, preignition..

Too much pane will crack ring lands and pistons and CC's.

Water injection was used to cool IC engines, remember the WWII aircraft?

I agree to use the WI as cooling, I dont agree to use the Meth as fuel, I would rather use Pane. Doesn't Meth advance the timing as well????? I didn't say it was bad for a diesel, but now that you brought it up...

WI would be good for limited use or at the track, but I dont think as a street engine or fuel economy driving.

If someone was to use it daily, I would keep a eye out on the water concentrates in the OA.
 

dvldoc

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Mach1 said:
Pane does all the things you describe of meth..

You forgot to mention that water collects in the crankcase by blowing by the rings, have you done your homework and do an OA to check this.

Pane is good in small quanities and bad in large doses.

Because pane extends the burn time, which advances the burn, preignition..

Too much pane will crack ring lands and pistons and CC's.

Water injection was used to cool IC engines, remember the WWII aircraft?

I agree to use the WI as cooling, I dont agree to use the Meth as fuel, I would rather use Pane. Doesn't Meth advance the timing as well????? I didn't say it was bad for a diesel, but now that you brought it up...

WI would be good for limited use or at the track, but I dont think as a street engine or fuel economy driving.

If someone was to use it daily, I would keep a eye out on the water concentrates in the OA.
Another misconception you guys really and I mean really need to know how internal combustion engines work before blanket comments are made that are technical false.

Heres a fact! For every 100 gallons of diesel burnt this is what produced.

Your worring about adding under 300 ml/min of water to a engine that is making gallons and gallon of it. And half of that is vaporized in the intake and is steam and alcohol vapor long before it hits the combustion chamber.

For every 100 gallons of diesel/gas burnt this is about what you get.

90-120 gallons of water
3 to 10 gallons of unburned gasoline/diesel
½ to 2 pounds of soot
¼ to 1 pound of resins and varnishes
1 to 4 pounds of nitrogen and sulfur acids
6 to 10 ounces of insoluble lead salts (if leaded gasoline is used)
1 to 2 ounces of hydrochloric and hydrobromic acids.

If you don't know that your engine is gulping down at least 50ml/min at 400rpms of water due to air saturation on a rainy day.

Like I said before there is no magic to it, just basic chemistry.

Water is a normal part of combustion folks.

These are facts!! And if anyone tells you the old water myth and then they do not understand internal combustion. That's why I go nuts when people ask (Will water hurt my engine, rust my engine, ruin my oil, contaminate my fuel, rust my rings, ect, ect):eek:

You forgot to mention that water collects in the crankcase by blowing by the rings, have you done your homework and do an OA to check this.
This statement is based on old rumors and false information.

I'm not trying to down you by any chance but the old devil just does not like when statements are made that are not based on facts. You should really look up coke, It's not the drink. But it's one of the number one sources of engine wear in a diesel engine and can be reduced almost 80% with water alcohol injection.

Coking deposits are generally un-combusted or incompletely combusted hydrocarbons and can form on system components such as the EGR valve, EGR cooler, EBP Sensor, EBP tube, intake manifold, turbo charger, catalytic converter and EGR throttle plate. Deposit sample analysis from warranty return parts confirms the source as engine oil or diesel fuel. Visual inspection CAN NOT link the sources of coking deposits as either from engine oil or diesel fuel. Coking deposits can be identified as shiny black grease like sludge, hard flat black solid mass, or thin light brown sticky layer.



Un-combusted deposits can be linked to delayed combustion events. Delayed combustion events can be a function of hard to ignite elements (poor quality fuel, excessive fuel, engine oil or excessive exhaust gas recirculation) in the combustion chamber or a delayed injection event (calibration, wire chafe, injector mechanical issue). Un-combusted fuel is usually evident as fuel scented white exhaust smoke. Un-combusted fuel may create coking which impairs system functionality eventually leading to black exhaust smoke / poorly combusted fuel.



If I owned a diesel I would be a little more worried about coking then the already present water.


You would save yourselves a lot of questions if you would do a little research on how a internal combustion engine works and the process of burning hydrocarbons.

There is no comparison when you take apart 2 engines with the same mileage one with water injection and one without

EOA, Remember the system will clear out almost all carbon and soot in the engine so change your oil the first 1000 miles.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2177445#post2177445

Devilsown only deals in facts. Any ASE Certified master mech can tell you the same thing so feel free not to take our word for it. Do your own research, be informed based on solid scientific facts.
 

Mach1

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I agree with alot of what you are saying..Yes I agree normal combustion=H2O..Ok so now you want to go and add more?

So you are saying that there is no point where too much water is bad for the engine? Can we add gallons and gallons, since more is better, alot must be even better.

You didn't address the Meth extending the burn dwell on my diesel. Over advancing the burn???

Dont they have a new process of bending metal using hydroforming, which when it first appeared, it was actually damaging the metal with stress factures because the process wasn't controlled.

BTW, you can actually quence the flame on a compression ignition engine by inducing TOO MUCH water to the CC.
 

mojogoes

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mk3 tdi golf
If a water methanol mix advances timing = ignites before standard diesel would ignite/combust like pane does then the ecu needs to know this so that the timing can be adjusted accordingly...........another question i would like to know the answer to is does methanol hold as much energy gallon for gallon as diesel fuel does plus how far away from cetane on the scale is it!!.
 
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