Incorrect timing/smoke at cold start until 180 degrees F

Prairieview

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
TDI
Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
I have spent a lot of time using the search and going through old threads. I can not find a duplicate of my problem.

Mid-fall, I made a trip to another state to retrieve a slightly front-end damaged 2002 Jetta ALH with 231,000. Yes, it has the automatic and I am working on acquiring all that is needed for a swap.

The damage included the fiberglas radiator support, radiator, fans, hood, passenger fender, bumper guard, headlights, power steering pump pulley. The car had sustained light impact. None of the intercooler associated parts were damaged (the frontal intercooler ducting was still fine!).

None of the wiring harness appeared damaged. The fuel pump, oil filter, timing cover, fuel filter had any evidence of impact of any kind.....very clean.

All the damaged pieces of the car were there in a pile when I arrived to take possession of the car (private owner). None of it was worth bringing home.

When the seller started the car for a QUICK drive-up onto the U-Haul dolly, the car immediately smoked rather profusely (medium grey color) and misfired with throttle. NOTE: this continues to be the pervasive problem I need help with.)

I have replaced all the damaged components with those off a 2003 gasoline car. None of the radiator electrical plug-ins showed any damage. The gas radiator and plug-ins are identical. The radiator and fans seem to be working perfectly...no leaks, fans come on properly at temp.)

This car was a total unknown so I pulled the intercooler and all pipes. About two drops of oil came from the intercooler. The intercooler and pipes were totally rinsed with gasoline and allowed to dry. The intake tract was found to be perfectly clean (amazing). The shaft play on the turbocharger is as it should be....no in-out.....clearly not coked-up bearing.

There is evidence of a head replacement and turbocharger replacement along with turbo actuator pod. I performed an EGR snake delete and used a diagram from this forum to attach all NEW vacuum lines. I performed the delete retaining the egr spaceship. And, before you ask, YES, the shutter valve is working exactly as it should at all times.

Problem: any time the car is cold started and ran, it produces a large quantity of medium-grey exhaust.....profuse actually. The engine runs rough during this period of time. IMMEDIATELY upon reaching 180 degrees F on the dash temp, it starts running properly......very smooth, very quiet, very responsive to throttle input. I mean, you hit 180 degrees and it is like a switch has been thrown and the problem TOTALLY disappears. It then take like 30 seconds to evacuate the smoke after which NO smoke is emitted.

The car immediately cold starts (and warm starts) at ALL times. I mean, a fly could take a dump on the key and it fires. Rotation of the crank with ratchet displays very good compression in this engine (I have run 1.6's since 1979 and totally went through another ALH this summer....so using this as a comparison on compression to good healthy engines).

The problem never changes in any fashion or at any ambient temps. This car had a brand new Continental cam belt and cam tensioner on it when purchased. The owner had been charged $1508.42 (copy of bill) 750 miles previously for cam belt, water pump, and alternator. I seen no visual proof of new rollers, etc. Could be.....might not be. The alternator installed was a Mexo rebuild....sans clutch pulley (which I had installed now). So, the sky is the limit on exactly what work was done by this Colo. shop. (My experience on repair shops: they only lie when there is still oxygen in their brain cells....which explains me NOT hiring any work done for well over 30 years!)

I have a KII Intelligent Ross-tech and am learning to use it.

Initial findings with Ross-tech:
1) timing was set exactly at middle blue line
2) Inj. quantity as at 2.6 with very little fluctuation
3) I had 17655 needle lift sensor fault
4) idle at 845 rpm
NO OTHER CODES except ABS rear brakes (which has been rectified).

What I have done:
1) Installed a KNOWN good set of manual injectors.....no more lift sensor code
2) set up the idle to 903 (I like slightly higher idles)
3) replaced the green temp sensor with new one...along with o-ring
4) used Ross to increase inj. quantity to 4.0.....no fluctuation
5) set the timing up to 1/4 of the way DOWN from the top line (i.e. increased from dead noots middle blue line to 3/4 way up to top line)
6) I have gone through and used electrical contact cleaner in fuel pump, inj, crank sensor, transmission electrical connections. Nothing looked "dirty."

7) I also removed the temp-controlled fuel pump recirculation "T" and installed a 1986 fuel filter (minus the recirc. orifice) to rule out air intake. Hey...I have lived with 1.6's for 1,000 years!

Verdict: The pervasive cold smoke problem persists EXACTLY the same each time. Once 180 degrees is reached.....bang....problem totally over.

NO fault codes displayed......never an indication of N108 code. EVERYTHING on this car runs seemingly perfect......well, I may have a little slipping in overdrive at 231,000.

I drove the car about 45 miles yesterday at about 52 degrees ambient and the car runs SUPER. I mean it is one hard hitting beetch with that 11 mm pump and manual injectors. NO SMOKE at any given throttle.....car runs super clean. No engine or transmission drips, all the lights work perfectly, all new brakes and total repeated fluid flush, new Kraut anti-freeze, all new power steering Pentosin fluid, NO MAF code, etc.

I only have the check engine light for the egr snake removal....same as my 2000 Beetle I totally rebuilt last summer (due to previous owner performing submarine duty......new bore, rods, pistons, etc.)

I went through all the measuring blocks and wrote down all the info....not sure how to use it all.

013 Measuring block IQ 1 through 4: 0.49 mg/str, -0.28, -0.40, 0.1 mg/str
015 fuel consumpt. 903 rpm, 4.4 mg. str. 0.60 lt/hr

019 Quantity adj. 0.780v 4.600v
013 IG idle stabilization: 0.47, -0.19, -0.38, 0.12

Any other needed info????????
As I have read, seems like a malfunctioning N108 always displays a code????

As stated, the electrical connectors at the radiator seemed perfectly intact.
I need some help, please. Once warm...this car runs GREAT with no hiccup. Sounds smooth as Pia Zadora's butte.

I will only be able to respond late night or mornings.
Thank you.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Since it took a front hit, you might check/unwrap the wire bundles up front for electrical damage. The one that goes under the battery has several from the IP to the ECU.
Annoying, I know.
One thing I might do is check all the temperature sensors cold, then hot to look for goofy numbers. You can find them here.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
IP fuel temp sensor?
 

Prairieview

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Jul 9, 2017
Location
Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
Temp sensor is internal to the fuel pump? Or where located?

Edit: I drove the car about 50 miles again up into the local higher elevation forested area. Car, once warmed to 180, ran super again. Unrelated: the only problem currently with the trans is a harder shift to 3rd......but, no flare. I performed a pan drop with filter and addition of BG 1344 synth. atf several weeks ago along with a suction on the diff and in with synth gear lube. I would have performed a total back flush (like I did on my 2002 gas Jetta) but, alas no longer have access to the BG machine. I'd just like to milk 10 thou or so more miles out of this trans if possible. I've seen some of these go to 323,000 believe it or no.
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Yes, the temperature sensor I'm referring to is the one inside the IP. I cannot say for sure whether an incorrectly functioning sensor would or wouldn't throw a code. I'm kind of thinking that it ought to, but I am unsure. Anyway, it really does feel like an IP-related issue.
 

Powder Hound

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'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
UhOh hit on exactly what came to my mind when I read this. The fuel temp sensor is a small black cylinder about the size of a slightly elongated 1/4 watt carbon axial wire lead resistor with a couple of ears on one side for screw mounting, and it is visible under the top cover of the injection pump. You'll need the special secret socket for the special secret bolt to get the cover off.

Good luck,

PH
 

Prairieview

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
I took delivery of a special socket just yesterday in the mail.....good ol' Prothe! What can I say.......

Do you have any idea where I could buy a temp sensor to replace mine? I have a Bosch shop out here....but, they have 55-gallon drums with handles on it for guys like me.......they are only interested in $5000 Ford, Dodge, Chevy warranty jobs. No time for small stuff. And, if you push them for help.......you will PAY. I severed my ties with them years ago.

Is replacement as simple as:1) marking the top cover to come close to quantity adjust after the repair? 2) using Ross tech to set quantity adj. at the end. 3) keeping everything surgically clean (my usual mode).

My area has NONE of these cars or parts. No salvage potential. I am making a trip to Colo. late next week for a 5-speed conversion though. But, I would have to buy a complete 10 mm pump for any parts.

Who sells a temp sensor?
Thank you.
 

Prairieview

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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
Edit: yes, Bob. I will run though this computer maybe tomorrow. I will look for deviations. My problems are slow to resolve as I work on my cars 70 miles south of my residence. And, my friend is an Adventist and Saturdays are off limits..............I do what I can.

Can you please tell me: in this video....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXghY7t0Wqg
At minute mark: 02:11

Is that the item of interest over there on the left side??? This guy's video is helpful.....but, much like watching paint dry or sloths mating.
 
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burn_your_money

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Location
Missouri
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99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
Yes that is it at 2:11. You won't lose any settings by taking off the very top cover to access the temp sensor.
I have a used one I can sell you.
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Sounds like it unrelated to accident my guess would be a bad valve seal or three.
A possibility, though it's not all that common. And, wouldn't the problem be more short-lived? My understanding is that any oil would get burned out long before hitting the 180F mark; and, why the apparent (as described) sudden change when hitting 180F? (if it were 108F it might make a little more sense, though an abruptness would seem to be more of a sensor-facilitated change than a mechanical one [sealing seals, rings etc.]).

OP, before yanking things apart (or even ordering parts), I'd look to see how that sensor if operating. You have VCDS, yes? Engine Measuring Block 000, Basic Settings, field #9.

Here's a useful thread on the fuel sensor:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=98099
 
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Prairieview

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A new temp sensor did nothing to correct the situation today.

As it turns out, there was brand new temp sensor in a little bag under the driver's seat among all the candy, potato chip, and burrito bags when I bought the car. I almost threw it away as it had no meaning to me when I saw it. But, I managed to toss it in the parts jetta and I recognized it when I saw the pictures posted this weekend in the link.

I carefully installed it today and the top area in my fuel pump was immaculately clean. No, I did not use the computer today as the wind was blowing roughly 40 mph and it was cold and miserable (I do all my work outside year round). So, sorry to get any additional data.

As the car got to an indicated 180, it electronically flipped back and forth between being perfect and stumbling about 4 times in 20 seconds. Then, as always, it ran super. I had it running about 2300 rpm to facilitate warming (using a jacket to apply footfeed).

The problem is NOT low compression, or oil around valve seals or any of that. It is clearly an electronic problem.......my guess either N108 or ECU. I am currently working on obtaining a used N108 to install. If it is the N108....great.

I used the warm-up to put new oil and filter in the engine. As stated, the problem never changes and is clearly electronic in nature.

I have the entire car super clean inside and out. Replaced body panels with very well matching paint. Very handsome. Please do not think it is a clapped out crusher-refugee. The whole engine bay is so clean you could have lunch in there and eat the stuff you dropped.

I hope to take the computer on the next round of work.
 

Nevada_TDI

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Reno, sort of...
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2001 Jetta TDI
I have re-read this entire post a couple of times so far, and I see you have replaced both the Coolant Temp Sensor and the fuel temp sensor; it is possible the new CTS is bad from the factory. The symptoms you describe sound like a bad CTS. When you hooked up Vag-Com did you verify the temperature of the coolant and the temperature gauge are the same? I could be wrong here... it just seems way too coincidental for you to hit the "warm" mark, every single time before the problem goes away.
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I'm sorry you went through all of that to no avail. I did urge you -post #15- to verify the operation of the temperature sensor.

I'm losing track of things, how, again, is the "180 degrees" derived?
 

Prairieview

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Jul 9, 2017
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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
Ross-tech indicates engine runs smooth at 176.18 F degrees.....identical problem time after time after time. This temp mirrors my in-car temp gauge display.

My relief valve on the front-top of the fuel pump had it's circular piston retainer slightly downward approx. 1/8 inch. I tapped the clip back in and no difference in how engine behaves.

I exchanged the pressure relief valve for one from an old 1.6 pump. The piston in this one was slightly higher in the bore. Guess what.......no difference is how the engine behaves.

Car continues to run extremely strong without a hitch.....except shifting into overdrive (won't do it)....unrelated. I programmed the trans to run in "00011" economy mode in common settings. But, this info is not relevant to the fueling problem while cold.

Still no codes on the engine.

AGAIN....as always....this engine starts right up no matter what the temp of the engine or ambient. Bang....fires and stays lit immediately on touch of the key. Life would be SO GOOD if not for the initial smoking/misfiring.

I scored pretty much all the items necessary for 5-speed conversion in Denver area this weekend. Probably will have to wait as cold weather coming in my miserable world.

QUESTION: Are the N108 cold valves interchangeable from the 11 mm to the 10 mm and viceversa????? A nice guy is sending me one out of a 10 mm pump (mine is an 11). Yes, I realize I will need to splice the electrical lines to make it happen.....not thrilled abooot that.

I have another brand new fuel temp sensor from idparts sitting in a little sack. I really can't see any reason to pound my pud installing it.....but, could real fast. For me...none of what I have done is really all that much work. But, getting no results is a lot like having a problem wife.......................
 
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burn_your_money

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Oct 16, 2012
Location
Missouri
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99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
No need to splice wires. The pins are pretty easy to remove from the pump connector. Slide the purple thing in the connector up then stick 2 slightly filed down 14 gauge solid copper wires in the terminal release spots and it will slide right out.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
ohm out the wires between the CTS and ecm, maybe a high resistance connection somewhere or someone added a resistor for performance? 176f is 80c and i think this is when closed loop operation begins ...do you have a smooth temp transition to 176 ?
 
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Prairieview

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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
Thanks for the advice, Burn.
Smooth transition build on both fuel temp and coolant.

Yesterday, at the beginning, fuel temp at 9.9c, and coolant at 10.8.
I watched the two values come up with high idle: values in Centigrade:
fuel 11.7......coolant 31.5
14.4............42.3
16.2............45.9 etc. on up.
The engine immediately ran smooth at 169.7F degrees. I quickly convert to F to help me understand......still struggle to deal with Centigrade.

Will disconnect MAF on next go-around.
I would be so happy if this was the MAF...hate to pay for it...but, want the drama over. This car hauls noots down the road.....ready to start actually using it.
Thank you for help, Jim.

Off topic: I went back in and reset the codes in the automatic trans. The darn thing now shifts in all 4 gears very well. A little "lumpy" shift into 3rd...have to not have too much throttle going when it shifts into 3rd to aid with smooth shift.......very happy. When these automatics run "right," they are kind of neat. This one really snaps to attention with throttle.
 
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indysoto

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Eugene, OR
You said it had evidence of headwork? Is the new head oem or aftermarket? I heard there was a problem with crappy valve stem seals in aftermarket heads. could be they finally get to operating temp and swell ceasing leakage.
 

Prairieview

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I'm going to take Maxmoo's early advice and perform a compression test, tomorrow, I hope.

I did my part to provide some more fish heads and rice to the red army by going to harbor freightless tonight for the "equipment" for the task.

Embarrassingly, I over looked the need to employ some basic diagnostic logic that I should know so well from the 1.6's. I keep thinking my problems MUST be related to the higher-level computer-controlled components on this later engine. So, I did not do what I would have done with my old stuff.

Friday, I one-by-one loosened the injector lines at the injector tops........#2 made no difference in the stumble. This is the hole which seemed to look "wet" early on when I pulled the original injectors out. At that time, I thought I merely had a dribbling injector in that hole....like which happens on high-mileage 1.6's. So, I opted to install a set of known-good injectors. What a dip for not recognizing the red flag. Live and learn.

My current assumptions? Well, seeing as how this head has clearly come off (in the not-to-distant past) or been replaced (I will never know for sure)....I have a suspicion someone failed to replace the 2nd cam belt in time.......kissed a valve or two.....and FAILED to measure piston protrusion prior to reassembly.

So, it is now time to step to the line with some basics: I intend to see what cold and warm compression sez. If a discrepancy is found....off with his head! But first inspect the cam lobes and lifters.

My guess: #2 rod has a very slight bend which is hindering compression when cold....and then is assisted by block heat for compression once normal temp is established.

Oddly enough, once warm, the engine is very smooth with NO obvious vibration. I just hope the unburned fuel has not scored the bore to the point is needs cut. I would not benefit from running into the tight-lipped previous owner when I was holding a baseball bat. I would have a homer.

Edit: The only other thing I could imagine would be a cracked top compression ring....or maybe both cracked. Crap, winter is set to arrive in 3 days here. I might have to put up with my older buddy and work in his heated shop. Things could be worse...I guess.............
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Look forward to hearing the results of the compression tests. However...

With compression issues woudln't one see harder cold starts?

Seems to me that injection deviation tends to corroborate compression data. From your first post you showed:

013 Measuring block IQ 1 through 4: 0.49 mg/str, -0.28, -0.40, 0.1 mg/str

Don't know if that was observed with cold or when warm. IF there were compression issues with #2 cylinder then I'd hardly expect it to show a lower fueling number. It's not a perfect detector, but the logic seems to suggest such.

Daughter's wagon has similar roughness when first started (cold) and it's been a bit perplexing: it too starts instantly. Injector deviation showed good, as did compression numbers. That the injector deviation numbers looked good backs up/supports the compression numbers. As a matter of fact, I leaned heavily on the injector deviation as a rough guide to engine health when I bought the car: I couldn't be expected to have performed a compression test (I ran this by folks on this forum and most said that they would allow a potential buyer to run a compression test [I once walked away from buying a UTV because a compression test showed a bad cylinder- seller was hoping it was just a bad GP, but after I showed him how to test and that it didin't help with the cold starting problems, I was then able to run a compression test]).

My other thought is that it could be a bad oil ring (more so than a compression ring). Still, the precision at which it seems to stabilize is a real mind bender.
 

Prairieview

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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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Two 2000 Beetles, 2002 Jetta, 2002 gas avh Jetta, fleet of older 1.6 turbo and non's
Ya, I want to see results as well.

I hate to sound arrogant or whatever, but, I trust an engine a whole lot more if I have taken it down to the crank and back and KNOW what-is-what.

This thing is frustrating. I never had any sort of problem with my Beetle rebuild from last summer. And, that I took to the crank....had to....submarine duty gone bad by the former genius.

If rod is bent or rings are cracked, will do an entire in-situ rebuild....which I have always ridiculed other guys for doing on earlier engines. Wouldn't be able to refresh-en the rear crank seal...but, it appears fine right at the moment.

Well, looks like I will get my chance to port this head, too. That will be nice.
 

Prairieview

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Jul 9, 2017
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Too close to Sturgis 'ithole
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I actually received one of these comp. testers where the Schrader valve actually works!!
First, cold tested compression. It had been about 16 above F overnight. Performed two tests per each hole. Sequentially from #1 to #4.
Test 1: 340 355 380 380
Test 2: 340 355 380 380

In order to have us all reading off the same page, Bentley lists ALH values:
NEW---368 to 456 lbs

Wear limit---279 lbs

Maximum diff. between holes---74 lbs

Put car back together, ran it at 2200 rpm to perform good warm up with temp gauge in car showing 190F. Quickly disassembled necessary parts. Performed warm test.

Warm test 1---380 370 400 400
Warm test 2---380 370 410 405

Well, #2 is slightly weaker. But, not enough to matter. My assumptions were unfounded.

I swore I would not do this.....but, I will swipe the good Bosch MAF off the Beetle and see what it does. I just hate to mess with something which works so well.....but, I am tired of the drama. Jim Bote is probably correct!

Oh ya....well, if the MAF does not improve things, I will switch out #2 injector as loosening the line did not change anything last go-around.
 
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Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
I will try to keep this post as short as is possible. You consistently go from bad to good at the same temperature all the time; you mention there was an accident involving the front end, here is what has been burning on my mind for days:
Years ago there was a woman that lived in one of the local rural valleys and was having phone problems; every time the weather got cold her phone did not work but the local phone company only held daytime hours and during the day the phone always worked. After many, many, unresolved phone tech trips to her area (the phone company thought she was imagining things) one technician set up a test rig to run on her phone after dark, and lo and behold after dark her phone did not work. The lady was right after all, there was a wire with a crack/break in it that when warm made contact, and when cold shrank back just enough to have no contact in the phone line. My point is you may have a wire chaffed somewhere that is not obvious, and when the engine/pump/wiring get warm the chaffed portion moves away from whatever it is touching and stops causing the problem. Just a thought. Here is another thought: disconnect the #3 injector connector when the engine is cold and see if anything changes, with the engine being hot or cold. The #3 injector wires do fray, cause issues, and do not always throw a code in the process leaving the owner scratching their head. I just went through a bad #3 injector that was causing me tons of grief and did not throw a code until it was completely dead.
 
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