Where to stop?

Ben Dur · Mar 8, 2012

The IDI could be from such a tight "squash" between the piston and the head.

so you've changed the piston to head clearance a bit, and dropped the compression ratio.
maybe a timing tweak is necessary.

from the research i did before purchasing nozzles, Nicktane doesnt list nozzles anymore, but if you contact him he will make whatever you want. Since i didnt want anything particularly "special" i dismissed that idea.

annnnnnd im sorry to DBW but i honestly looked long an hard at the titans. My conclusion was, for my purpose, i wouldn't save much money and there was a hint of 'uncertainty' so i just went tried and true. r520

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 8, 2012

That's a good idea - I'll see if the local FLAPS has some.

Ben Dur · Mar 8, 2012

dss? i never gave them a second thought. to many horror stories with pumps, not enough info on nozzles. "NEXT"

deleted my mistake

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 8, 2012

I've been meaning to calculate my new CR with the tighter piston/head clearance...

Whitbread · Mar 8, 2012

Go with R520's or Nicktane's of equivalent size. Bigger nozzle = shorter injection duration = less smoke for same power level.

From my experience with the titan 764's they're a good nozzle and run very well, they're just too small for anyone with a built motor/big turbo setup.

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 10, 2012

I did a full 16oz can of Diesel Purge today - it might run a little smoother, but still has an IDI diesel clatter to it.

I also finished the compression ratio calculations and without getting into all the details of my model, IF the ARL pistions are 18.5:1 when installed at nominal piston protrusion, my extra 0.006" of pistion protrusion bumps my actual compression ratio up to 19.00:1 on cylinders 2, 3 & 4 and 18.30:1 on cylinder 1. So it's not way out of line (not 22.5:1 like the IDI's)

How I did the CR model

Assumptions
1) All models are wrong
2) CR = BDC Volume / TDC Volume
3) Swept Volume + TDC Volume = BDC Volume
4) ALH CR is 19.5:1 @ nominal dimensions (average of min/max pistion protrusion on a 2 hole gasket
5) ARL CR is 18.5:1 @ nominal dimensions (same as ALH above)
6) Head Gasket Thicknesses in the Bentley are compressed (they measure quite a bit thicker used and un-compressed)

So I calculated the swept volume and using the known CR, iterated the TDC volume until BDC Volume/TDC Volume = the known CR out to ~5 decimal places. These are all called "Nominal"

Then I added in "Actual" CR, TDC Volume and BDC Volume variables along with a Piston Protrusion Variance variable.

The Actual TDC Volume = Nominal TDC Volume + (Cylinder Area x Piston Protrusion Variance). Then Actual BDC and Actual CR are calculated from Actual TDC Volume using the same swept volume of the cylinder.

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 11, 2012

Does anyone have a new (not rebuilt) ALH cylinder head that they can measure intake and exhaust valve protrusions on for me?

I added valve protrusion to my CR model and was a little surprised at how much of an effect valve protrusion has on CR.

My valves are all at ~0.010" from the head now and I seem to remember that new they're ~0.040". They were 0.020"-0.030" after the first seat cutting.

Sinking both the intake and exhaust valves from 0.040" to 0.010" protrusion drops CR by almost a full point! Not to mention the un-shrouding I did around the valve seats.

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 16, 2012

I drained the 5w30 semi-synthetic break in oil from the engine today and put in Total Quartz Energy 9000 0w30.

I cut apart the filter and examined it. There were some shiny specks - likely aluminum from head porting if I had to guess. Nothing too alarming I didn't think. It has 600 miles on it.

mk1-83 · Mar 17, 2012

wow that's looky bad. after I done headporting I cleanend very well. by steam cleaner and commpres air.

also after my rebuild my engine noise was like a idi.
now after 10.000km it's smooth. what to rev a bit better.

TDIJetta99 · Mar 17, 2012

I pulled my initial oil filter apart after the build and didn't see anything spectacular other than a few little pieces that I think were just from me not cleaning the block out well enough..

I'd run it another 1k and pull the filter and see if you still get debris.. If not, then you're good..

Mine was VERY soft and unresponsive when I first put it together, but after a road trip pulling my motorcycle trailer (1k# loaded) it woke up.. I drove it around for about 100 miles before putting 2500 miles on it pulling the bike trailer to Daytona and back.. Most of the highway cruising was done about 2500-2800rpm with a few pulls to 4500.. Sounded completely different upon arriving to Daytona, and fuel mileage was steadily increasing on the trip.. Now 8k later it sounds like it should and is super responsive above 2500. Definitely lacking down low but that's due to a combination of factors like the 2260, lower CR, and a cam that reduces dynamic CR quite a bit... Yours should be pretty snappy once it's all settled in and you get the fueling sorted out..

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 17, 2012

I cleaned the head 3 seperate times with a power washer and compressed air in every hole after porting. It seems that unless you do everything in a cleanroom environment you're going to get some bult in contamination.

At work we have a product that is assembled and tested in a class 1000 clean room to insure there are no contamination related failures.

I'll pull the fiter again after a while and see what I find.

The engine is "firming" up a little. I've noticed that I have significantly higher EMP's while getting the turbo spooled up than before. Same VNT settings (4"Hg) so it makes the bottom end "soft" until the vanes open up and the EMP's drop. I increased the VNT start of movement to ~7"Hg last night when I changed oil to see if I can offset the tune's N75 command - I'll need to drive it more to see if it helped or hurt. Being a MAP based tune, it may not change things. I'm guessing that it's either cam/crank timing and/or exhaust porting that's contributing to this.

It still has the IDI knock to it sometimes, but othertimes it's as smooth and quiet as a common rail. Still a bit of a mystery there.

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 20, 2012

Fix_Until_Broke said:
..........I've noticed that I have significantly higher EMP's while getting the turbo spooled up than before. Same VNT settings (4"Hg) so it makes the bottom end "soft" until the vanes open up and the EMP's drop. I increased the VNT start of movement to ~7"Hg last night when I changed oil to see if I can offset the tune's N75 command - I'll need to drive it more to see if it helped or hurt. Being a MAP based tune, it may not change things. I'm guessing that it's either cam/crank timing and/or exhaust porting that's contributing to this..........

So, I've driven it for a couple days with the VNT actuator set to start movement at 7"Hg instead of 3"Hg and what happened is not quite what I expected....

Power delivery is much more linear - there is not the sudden burst of power when the vanes open and the EMP drops that there was before - This I kind of expected.

EGT's are 200-300F higher and climb significantly faster than with the lighter actuator setting

Smoke is noticably increased - not irresponsibly so, but there's a slight haze on moderate acceleration and a decent fog on full throttle where it was more/less clear on moderate acceleration and a slight haze on full throttle with the lighter actuator setting

Boost response is more/less same - no noticable difference

EMP's are significantly reduced - maybe a 5 psi EMP overshoot on tip in before the vanes pull back and then it holds 1:1 boost/emp ratio

So...with less EMP's I have no noticible change in spool up, higher EGT's and more smoke.

???

flee · Mar 24, 2012

Fix_Until_Broke said:
EGT's are 200-300F higher and climb significantly faster than with the lighter actuator setting

Smoke is noticably increased - not irresponsibly so, but there's a slight haze on moderate acceleration and a decent fog on full throttle where it was more/less clear on moderate acceleration and a slight haze on full throttle with the lighter actuator setting

So...with less EMP's I have no noticible change in spool up, higher EGT's and more smoke.???

Isn't this what you'd expect, though?

You retarded the onset of the turbo actuation which results in a somewhat richer fuel/air ratio, i.e. less complete combustion and that always seems to raise EGT and make more smoke, etc.
Or am I missing something?

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 26, 2012

I was thinking that the reduced exhaust backpressure would result in an increase in mass airflow, therefore less smoke and lower EGT's. I'm obviously wrong about that given the results of my experiment.

Being a MAP based tune I assumed that I would get the same fueling for a given MAP pressure, but I suppose that there must be a drivers request fuel adder otherwise it would never increase fueling because it would never increase boost and round and round.

Maybe the actual MAP is slightly lower/later than the requested MAP causing the additional fueling for a given boost pressure due to the drivers request?

I'm just throwing darts at the wall - I need to take some logs at the various settings and see what's really going on

TDIJetta99 · Mar 27, 2012

Ya there's a big grey area between being too choked up and too open.. I've spent the past month or so messing with my 2260's actuator rod and stop screw in 1/8-1/4 turn increments.. Even 1/8 turn on the stop screw makes a noticeable difference in boost response and smoke..

What I did learn is that a slightly more open setting on the stop screw provided better high rpm boost response (2500+rpm cruising) but sacrificed almost all of the low rpm boost response and it had unacceptable smoke levels while trying to putt around town..

The 17/22 hybrid is a lot more forgiving while adjusting since the hot side is significantly smaller

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 31, 2012

The IDI sound is not getting any better and with the recent colder (~40F) weather it's actually starting harder and with more sustained white smoke in the first 1-2 minutes than it used to. Even with double cycling the glow plugs (I have not extended the glow time in VagCom yet) it takes 5-10 engine revs to fire and then only 1-2 cylinders at first. Lift pump is working. The exhaust smells like an old Deere 404/466 at idle even after TDI engine is fully warmed up.

I ordered a complete set of injectors from a 2003 TDI with 1XXk miles on them. I removed the DBW'd PP502's and installed the stock ones today and took it for a drive. Driving around it still has more/less the same IDI sound to it, it's a little less powerful, but not much. It smokes a little less, but not much. EGT's don't rise as fast/far, but again, not much. If I wasn't looking for a change, I probably would not notice. I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to evaluate cold starting. Still running the high (7"Hg) turbo actuator preload.

I think that somewhat eliminates injectors (nozzles, needle lift sensor, etc) as the source of the IDI sound. The not so drastic decrease in power might be a reason I'm only getting ~135HP on the dyno, but that's another discussion.

The other thing I noticed is that the injection pump has a ~100 RPM area of unstable operation between 1100-1200 RPM just off idle. Coming up to a stop sign (a ways off yet) in 3rd gear and was just about to downshift to 2nd and realized that I had another block+ to go so I gently accelerated in 3rd (5-10% throttle maybe) and it came up from ~1000 RPM smooth and by 1100 RPM it was bucking - turning fuel on/off - by 1200 RPM it was smooth again and worked fine. Wierd - backed off and coasted down to 1100 RPM and with any throttle application it was unstable. Above or below the 1100-1200 RPM range it was smooth. I ran out of room before the stop sign to try it again. I'm wondering if the injection pump has an issue?

On the Injection Pump topic - I've switched back/forth between my 10mm and 11mm pumps a handfull of times for various reasons and have never noticed a difference between them in power or anything. Silly question I guess, but is this something that I should notice (same tune - just hardware swap)?

Thoughts, suggestions? I'm getting tired of driving what sounds like a cold GM 6.2l IDI engine.

I'm not aginst new injectors/nozzles and an injection pump, but it's another $2k+ by the time it's all done.

TDIJetta99 · Mar 31, 2012

How's your compression? Might be a good idea to check it at this point... It's probably OK but won't hurt..

The high piston protrusion might have something to do with the sound, but the hard starting is kind of weird... That kind of makes me thing the compression is low... My 03 is about 425psi (modded pistons) and it's a little hard to start, but longer glow time straightens it right out..

Fix_Until_Broke · Mar 31, 2012

I need to get my own compresion gauge one of these days - that's a good idea. My local Harbor Freight has them in stock for $30 - mabye I'll run out and pick one up quick. I'm not usually into HF tools, but the gauge is the important part and I can calibrate that - as long as the adapter screws in the GP hole and seals, I should be good.

TDIJetta99 · Mar 31, 2012

Ya the 10X1.00 adapter works fine.. I have the same gauge.. Not 100% sure of the accuracy, but I test healthy stock ALH cars and usually get 480-510 so it seems close..

oldpoopie · Mar 31, 2012

What's the fuel temp sensor read?

Fix_Until_Broke said:
The IDI sound is not getting any better and with the recent colder (~40F) weather it's actually starting harder and with more sustained white smoke in the first 1-2 minutes than it used to. Even with double cycling the glow plugs (I have not extended the glow time in VagCom yet) it takes 5-10 engine revs to fire and then only 1-2 cylinders at first. Lift pump is working. The exhaust smells like an old Deere 404/466 at idle even after TDI engine is fully warmed up.

I ordered a complete set of injectors from a 2003 TDI with 1XXk miles on them. I removed the DBW'd PP502's and installed the stock ones today and took it for a drive. Driving around it still has more/less the same IDI sound to it, it's a little less powerful, but not much. It smokes a little less, but not much. EGT's don't rise as fast/far, but again, not much. If I wasn't looking for a change, I probably would not notice. I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to evaluate cold starting. Still running the high (7"Hg) turbo actuator preload.

I think that somewhat eliminates injectors (nozzles, needle lift sensor, etc) as the source of the IDI sound. The not so drastic decrease in power might be a reason I'm only getting ~135HP on the dyno, but that's another discussion.

The other thing I noticed is that the injection pump has a ~100 RPM area of unstable operation between 1100-1200 RPM just off idle. Coming up to a stop sign (a ways off yet) in 3rd gear and was just about to downshift to 2nd and realized that I had another block+ to go so I gently accelerated in 3rd (5-10% throttle maybe) and it came up from ~1000 RPM smooth and by 1100 RPM it was bucking - turning fuel on/off - by 1200 RPM it was smooth again and worked fine. Wierd - backed off and coasted down to 1100 RPM and with any throttle application it was unstable. Above or below the 1100-1200 RPM range it was smooth. I ran out of room before the stop sign to try it again. I'm wondering if the injection pump has an issue?

On the Injection Pump topic - I've switched back/forth between my 10mm and 11mm pumps a handfull of times for various reasons and have never noticed a difference between them in power or anything. Silly question I guess, but is this something that I should notice (same tune - just hardware swap)?

Thoughts, suggestions? I'm getting tired of driving what sounds like a cold GM 6.2l IDI engine.

I'm not aginst new injectors/nozzles and an injection pump, but it's another $2k+ by the time it's all done.

silverbox · Mar 31, 2012

Fix_Until_Broke said:
The IDI sound is not getting any better and with the recent colder (~40F) weather it's actually starting harder and with more sustained white smoke in the first 1-2 minutes than it used to. Even with double cycling the glow plugs (I have not extended the glow time in VagCom yet) it takes 5-10 engine revs to fire and then only 1-2 cylinders at first. Lift pump is working. The exhaust smells like an old Deere 404/466 at idle even after TDI engine is fully warmed up.

I ordered a complete set of injectors from a 2003 TDI with 1XXk miles on them. I removed the DBW'd PP502's and installed the stock ones today and took it for a drive. Driving around it still has more/less the same IDI sound to it, it's a little less powerful, but not much. It smokes a little less, but not much. EGT's don't rise as fast/far, but again, not much. If I wasn't looking for a change, I probably would not notice. I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to evaluate cold starting. Still running the high (7"Hg) turbo actuator preload.

I think that somewhat eliminates injectors (nozzles, needle lift sensor, etc) as the source of the IDI sound. The not so drastic decrease in power might be a reason I'm only getting ~135HP on the dyno, but that's another discussion.

The other thing I noticed is that the injection pump has a ~100 RPM area of unstable operation between 1100-1200 RPM just off idle. Coming up to a stop sign (a ways off yet) in 3rd gear and was just about to downshift to 2nd and realized that I had another block+ to go so I gently accelerated in 3rd (5-10% throttle maybe) and it came up from ~1000 RPM smooth and by 1100 RPM it was bucking - turning fuel on/off - by 1200 RPM it was smooth again and worked fine. Wierd - backed off and coasted down to 1100 RPM and with any throttle application it was unstable. Above or below the 1100-1200 RPM range it was smooth. I ran out of room before the stop sign to try it again. I'm wondering if the injection pump has an issue?

On the Injection Pump topic - I've switched back/forth between my 10mm and 11mm pumps a handfull of times for various reasons and have never noticed a difference between them in power or anything. Silly question I guess, but is this something that I should notice (same tune - just hardware swap)?

Thoughts, suggestions? I'm getting tired of driving what sounds like a cold GM 6.2l IDI engine.

I'm not aginst new injectors/nozzles and an injection pump, but it's another $2k+ by the time it's all done.

I recently switched from a 10mm to an 11mm IP and could feel a big difference.

Fix_Until_Broke · Apr 1, 2012

Did a compression test today - cold

1) 420 psi
2) 400 psi
3) 420 psi
4) 420 psi

Took a crappy video on Cylinder 2 which ended at 400 psi. [edit - video link removed - no useful data]

JFettig · Apr 1, 2012

Can you take a video/sound byte of the knock? I'd be curious to know what this sound is that concerns you.

Fix_Until_Broke · Apr 1, 2012

I tried today, however the sound didn't come through like I hoped - the camera microphone is not senstitive enough for inside the car and the flywheel rattle is so loud that you can't hear anything else.

If you've ever driven a cold 5.7, 6.2, 6.5 GM diesel you'll know exactly what I mean.

I did a bunch of things today

Adjusted the actuator to start movement at ~5"Hg instead of 7"Hg - it spools a bit quicker and a bit less smokey

Hot compression numbers

1) 420 psi
2) 430 psi
3) 440 psi
4) 425 psi

Re-evaluated the stock ALH injectors back to back with the PP502's - Long and short of it - the ALH's are quiet and zero smoke except on spool up - the PP502's have a distinct IDI sound, a very slight haze at 100% throttle and a bit smokey on spool up.

ALH injectors had a steady light haze of white smoke at idle and would make large clouds of white smoke at 2000 RPM in neutral. I didn't think to try this with the PP502's.

Then I advanced the cam ~4 degrees.

I took VagLogs and dash daq videos which I'll post up later once I go through them.

TDIJetta99 · Apr 1, 2012

The low compression is causing the hard starts.. Pretty much anything under 450 and they'll be a bit coppy starting cold.. extending the glow time will fix that.. So will bigger injectors and an IQ setting around 4.5-5.. I have R520's in mine and it fires instantly.. rough and stumbly but fires right up..

You are using PD150 pistons right?

Messing with the cam timing had no effect on how mine ran that I could tell, but I only have a 6 degree window before clearances get too tight with 11mm of valve lift..
I tried a set of T4's in mine and it did sound weird.. Not quite GM 6.2 loud but definitely different than a normal ALH.. My 6.5 sounds HORRIBLE on a cold winter morning haha

Fix_Until_Broke · Apr 2, 2012

Hot compression test with cam ~4 degrees advanced

1) 500 psi
2) 500 psi
3) 505 psi
4) 500 psi

Still starts for crap - have not extended the glow times yet.

Hopefully be able to get through the logs and get video's posted up from Sunday later tonight.

darkhorse · Apr 2, 2012

Your cylinders appear very well balanced but what pressure is expected with these motors?

Fix_Until_Broke · Apr 2, 2012

I don't remember exactly what the stock ALH should be but I think it's 480-500 psi.

Lower compression ratio that I have will lower than that, but I don't know how much.

What I found interesting is the 75 psi increase in cranking compression by advancing the cam by ~4 degrees. To be sure that something else hasn't changed in the 24 hours between the two compression tests, I should retard the cam back to 0 degrees and re-check the compression to see if it's back at ~425 psi.

TDIJetta99 · Apr 3, 2012

Stock ALH is usually 475+.. The 4 degrees shouldn't make that big of a difference in compression, but it's worth checking into...

Did you extend the glow time yet??

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 3, 2012

It also depends on what compression tester you're using, doesn't it? I hear that the Snap-On tester shows significantly lower numbers than a Harbor Freight tester, for example.

Where to stop?

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