Group III oils are Synthetic???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drivbiwire:
Petro Canada:
5w40 full synthetic (Group three synthetic another very good choice)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I thought Group III oils are NATURAL dino-derived oils?

Troy

Must you always require spoon feeding of information Troy? http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/faq.htm#Anchor-13677

Try using search function on your computer. Google would be a good start. Type in Group III oils and start educating yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bubblehead:
Must you always require spoon feeding of information Troy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. But I like to get confirmation before I correct Drivbiwire's mis-information.

You provided that confirmation. Petro Canada is LYING. Their 5W40 is NOT synthetic, but a Group III oil dug out of the ground.

Further confirmation that they are lying: http://www.BestSyntheticOil.com/amsoil/basestocks.shtml

"Groups II and III are the High Viscosity Index and Very High Viscosity Index basestocks. They are hydroprocessed MINERAL [NATURAL] oils." (emphasis added)

Troy

Think of it this way, they modified the oil enough that it is more synthetic than conventional. It does have it's origins from the ground but overall it is by every definition a synthetic oil.

If you like Sci-fi it's the cyborg of the oil industry.

DB

Even if they are Hydroprocessed MINERAL oil, they are still legally allowed to call their product synthetic. Remeber the outcome from the MOBIL v CASTROL syntec case. If not click on the link for summary. New members should read this to get a better understanding of the difficulties in defining what is a "synthetic oil" http://www.pecuniary.com/newsletters/syntheticsdefined.html

Look.

The definition of synthetic is tricky. This has gone on for almost 3 years? now!

The answers to the rediculous over asked question that you pose have been answered and answered and answered here.

Simplified version:

Group III oils are specially refined and heavily processed oils that resemble synthetic molecules more than natural molecules. The spectrographic similarity is almost better than PAO derived oils.

The Group III oils however have significant diversity (like Group II and Group I). The limits set are just that it has greater than xxx% saturates and less than xx% sulfur.

Newer processing plants like Petro Canada have nearly zero % sulfur (actually their Group III oil is safer and less harmful than baby oil). And nearly 100% saturates.

To say that they are not synthetic is well - true but not so true.

It is a foggy area only addressed by a marketing panel that Mobil Sued Castrol in front of.

Call the Kevin guy at API and ask if he can shed some light on it for you - he has sent some information packets to a few forum members that include the 2 part article published in lubricant's world on this subject.

---

As far as Diesel engines go - regardless of output (as long as they have a lower output than mickeys or better oil cooling) teh Group III oils are essentially synthetic.

the only place that they break down performance wise is in the high 240+ degree temps and the sub -40 degree area.

The Group III oils have a significantly better additive solubility than Group IV/V oils, which means that you can use slightly less additives with significantly better results. They cost about 1/2 as much to make than Group IV and much much less than Group V oils.

Troy - if you want to try some 0W-30 I am sure we can arrange for you to recieve some - there are a few forum members that probably want to unload a bit of stock.

Nah, the Group III stuff is just glorified "Dino squeezins", right Geoff?

Seriously though, think of making group III base oils as a form of ultra-refining. The wax in the crude oil is actually chemically changed into a saturated hydrocarbon molecule, similiar to a PAO. There is an excellent explanation on the Chevron website.

PAO's are man made hydrocarbons that are typically derived from ethylene (C2H4?). The ethylene molecules are chemically "knitted" together to get the overall molecule you want. If you want to increase the viscosity of the oil, you simply increase the molecular weight and vice versa.

Organic Esters (diesters polyol-esters) are made from combining ethyl alcohol with specific types of organic acids.
These can be derived from petro chemicals or from grain, biomass, castor beans, etc (generally whatever the cheapest source is).

The extreme temp properties of Group III's are not quite as good as PAO's, but are much better than typical petroleum oils. For example the pour point of the Delo 400, 5w-40 is approx -45F, as opposed to -65F for Delvac 1 or -54F for the Amsoil 10w-40. You can tweak the additive package to get overall performance that approaches PAO/Ester synthetics for less $$$.

Troy,

You should not believe all that Amsoil propaganda

Tk

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeWilli:
Troy - if you want to try some 0W-30 I am sure we can arrange for you to recieve some - there are a few forum members that probably want to unload a bit of stock.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion, if the oil comes from the ground, it AIN'T synthetic. It's natural. I don't care if it performs as well as synthetic... that doesn't mean that it's synthetic.

Troy

price per performance you can't beat Group III

And Performance isn't exactly what comes to mind when I seen a Honda Hybrid skateboard - I mean insight/insite how ever you spell that damn ugly excuse for a tiny 2 seater that I can't even begin to think about wedgin my lanky 6'6" frame into . . .

Group III has been shown to be great and fantastic and effective - cost and performance wise.

BUT if you run a tricked out modded honda V-Tech type R engine that redlines at 8,000 rpms you'd better have a Group IV/V in there. . . . some how I don't see the hybrid skatboard that they make doing that . .

I don't consider Group III to be "synthetic", but the industry does...after a bitter fight between Mobil and Castrol.

I tend to call it "Group III", but if people want to think of it as "synthetic" that's OK. It's pretty close to the performance of true synthetics in most cases.

This issue is very confusing to newbies who just want to know what the hell to put in their engines.

-mickey

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeWilli:
price per performance you can't beat Group III<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does one spot a Group III oil from a Group IV oil? And if the oil is Group III... how do you know it's hydrocracked vs. normal junk refining?

Am I correct in assuming that Mobil 1 is a mix of Groups 3, 4, and 5 (TRI-synthetic)?
.
.
.
The hybrid is redlined at 6000 rpm... slow for a Honda. And yes, it's ugly in the rear, but I don't care. On my new 400 mile a day commute, I save myself $60 a week. And I'll save even more when the Mideast oil wells start to dry up.


Troy

Mobil 1 is Group IV/V not a drop of Group III in ANY mobil products

adn the only way to find out what the base stock used is to pester the people at technical support for the oil companies!

400 miles a day? Well time to move! $60 isn't that much saved.

My total costs per mile counting every penny put into this thing (insurance to washer fluid to monthly payment -4 yr loan BTW) is:

$0.19/mile.

and $0.15/mile are costs unrelated to mileage - Insurance and monthly payment . . .

. . .

my 150 miles aday are enough to make me want a shorted commute - thank goodness it is only 2 hours a day!

Geoff,

As I recall, the Mobil 1 tri-synthetic is primarily a PAO/Ester oil with a small amount of alkelated (sic) aromatic? One of the issues Mobil was facing was how to make a long drain oil that would work in the new BMW's & Mercedes and still stay below the 1000 ppm limit on phosphorus. A 5w40 like Valvoline Synpower is not required to meet these limits.

Ted

Ted,

alkylated napthalenes (the 3rd part of Mobil 1)

Geoff

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeWilli:
400 miles a day? Well time to move! $60 isn't that much saved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, gas is so cheap now. Maybe I'll put te Insight into storage.

As for moving, I would but it's not a permanent job. No sense in moving to Scranton PA and then moving back to Baltimore 3 months later.

Ahhh... the life of a contractor. Never settle down.

Troy

Fully alkylated aromatics = napthalenes