Picken's Plan

Random

Veteran Member
Joined
May 14, 2005
Location
AZ
TDI
2003 Golf
Picken's Plan: One Oil Billionaire’s Mission to Save America

IT'S TIME TO STOP AMERICA'S ADDICTION TO FOREIGN OIL



America is in a hole and it's getting deeper every day. We import 70% of our oil at a cost of $700 billion a year - four times the annual cost of the Iraq war.

I've been an oil man all my life, but this is one emergency we can't drill our way out of. But if we create a new renewable energy network, we can break our addiction to foreign oil.

On January 20, 2009, a new President gets sworn in. If we're organized, we can convince Congress to make major changes towards cleaner, cheaper and domestic energy resources.

To get this done, I need your help. Check out the plan. If you think it's worth fighting for, please join our effort.
 
Last edited:

MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
Sorry, half of the plan is excellent, half is just stupid.

Building lots of wind turbines is a great plan.

But taking natural gas away from power generation (where it's about 60% efficient) and turning it into automotive use (where it's about 15-20% efficient) is a bad idea.

I have to agree with Joseph Romm on this one: Climate Progres
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
MBoni said:
Building lots of wind turbines is a great plan.
I would say it is an idea that may have a lot of merit. It still needs some more research and testing and thought before going full steam ahead. There are some down sides to wind power, but there are many different approaches to it and not all are turbines. Some solve some problems, but cause others.

I am all for more research and testing however.
 

Random

Veteran Member
Joined
May 14, 2005
Location
AZ
TDI
2003 Golf
Look at Denmark, their wind power plants are very advanced. Furthermore they have plans for electric cars wherein citizens can buy cheap energy at night, commute, and sell back excess energy at a higher price by plugging in their cars while at work. The net benefit is mass energy storage, and free transportation. Wow, that could really work!
 

comp

Active member
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
eville In.,,,,USA
TDI
none yet
Random said:
Look at Denmark, their wind power plants are very advanced. Furthermore they have plans for electric cars wherein citizens can buy cheap energy at night, commute, and sell back excess energy at a higher price by plugging in their cars while at work. The net benefit is mass energy storage, and free transportation. Wow, that could really work!
sounds great :D
 

TurbinePower

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Location
Upstate SC
TDI
None
Random said:
Look at Denmark, their wind power plants are very advanced. Furthermore they have plans for electric cars wherein citizens can buy cheap energy at night, commute, and sell back excess energy at a higher price by plugging in their cars while at work. The net benefit is mass energy storage, and free transportation. Wow, that could really work!
So... how do you get home? If you "sell back excess energy" by "plugging in at work," what do you drive home on?
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
MBoni said:
Sorry, half of the plan is excellent, half is just stupid.

Building lots of wind turbines is a great plan.

But taking natural gas away from power generation (where it's about 60% efficient) and turning it into automotive use (where it's about 15-20% efficient) is a bad idea.

I have to agree with Joseph Romm on this one: Climate Progres
Public transportation buses can run on natural gas and reduce city polution. One thing for sure, the extra natural gas can be used somewhere else.
I like Pickens initiative . GE will make lots of $$ from wind turbines and it's investing in solar panels too.
 

bakdoor

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Location
NEPA
TDI
2014 Jetta, 2006 Jetta (gone), 1999 Jetta-blue (gone,) 1999 Jetta-green (gone)
Joe_Meehan said:
There are some down sides to wind power
OK, I'll bite: what possible down side is there to wind power? OK, we all know it's not as efficient as coal, nuclear, or NG electricity production, but "down side?" What, are the Canada goose's flight paths being altered or something?:rolleyes:

We have several wind farms here in NEPA--one in Luzerne County where I live, another one in Schuylkill County that was 13 turbines that is currently being doubled in size. For an area of this country that was largely responsible for fueling the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s (from anthracite coal) and that had fallen into obscurity in the late 20th century, it's nice to see a new energy revolution taking place here, not to mention the jobs that go with it. So I'm just waiting to hear the down side(s.)
 

lawallac

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Location
Stratford WI
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Doesn't matter if you say it like you're from Tx or not the only way outta foreign dependence is nuclear. All other things are beneficial and support the cause, but are not gonna get to to ultimate goal. I don't doubt that hybrid diesels will play a part, but we're still gonna need to plug them into the grid to benefit the most.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
bakdoor said:
OK, I'll bite: what possible down side is there to wind power? OK, we all know it's not as efficient as coal, nuclear, or NG electricity production, but "down side?" What, are the Canada goose's flight paths being altered or something?:rolleyes:
Not reliable. You can loose generation capacity when the wind drops. What this means is you still need other generation capabilities and the cost that goes along with that. However it does mean that you don't need to run those other generation tools as often.

As you noted, birds are a problem. Certain birds, including some endangered, tend to have problems with the most common design units. I believe this can be worked on and it may require different approaches for each installation. Additional study needed.

Home owner's objections. The most common designs suffer from a low frequency noise/vibration. It travels a long way from the tower and living near one is not pleasant. There have also been some evidence that it is a problem for farm stock in the area as well. Again different designs may resolve the problem, but more studies are needed to get the facts and solutions.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
lawallac said:
the only way outta foreign dependence is nuclear.
In the long long run, I believe that may turn out true. But we need a lot more research to make it economically and safely viable.

Until we have a save economic full life cycle technology, we just don't know. We have some parts of it, but we don't have full life cycle technology yet.
 

Random

Veteran Member
Joined
May 14, 2005
Location
AZ
TDI
2003 Golf
TurbinePower said:
So... how do you get home? If you "sell back excess energy" by "plugging in at work," what do you drive home on?
Ummm...obviously you don't sell all of the electricity back.
 

ieracer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Location
CA
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDI
Pickens plan? Any plan is good, check this out...

Had to post on this one, sorry it's not alt diesel fuel related but this is great.

I race desert, my 7 yr. old has a quad, my wife has a quad, I have a KTM, XR650R, and a WR450 Yamaha which we pull all in a trailer 70 miles up into the high desert 6-8 times a year with a 30 ft. motorhome. Yeah, my carbon footprint is like bigfoot, growing up in the 60's and still an avid kart and motorcycle racer it's hard to break.

But now, expecially since oil is outrageous, I'm seeing things that are just way too cool. The latest: Last weekend riding in the mojave desert, a guy had an electric motorcycle. He had two battery packs and charged one at a time on pair of small solar (36x48") arrays in 4 hrs. The bike ran well over an hour on a charge and this was hauling a##! I'm 200 lbs and he let me ride it and it was really weird, twitchy throttle, but pulled me better than I could imagine. Riding wheelies, jumping, etc.. So strange to not run on a powerband, and to hear only rocks and sand bouncing off the fenders.

Check it out... (no, I don't sell these, just thought it was interesting to say the least)...

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/index.php

Random said:
IT'S TIME TO STOP AMERICA'S ADDICTION TO FOREIGN OIL
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
Not reliable. You can loose generation capacity when the wind drops. What this means is you still need other generation capabilities and the cost that goes along with that. However it does mean that you don't need to run those other generation tools as often.
Not as unreliable as you might think. Conventional plants go down all the time due to mechanical failure. Turbines are sited where the wind blows above a mean average speed (of 11 mph I think) of over 80% of the time on an annual basis (I'll admit I'm not totally sure of the exact number). Regardless, if the wind isn't blowing here, it is somewhere else.

As you noted, birds are a problem. Certain birds, including some endangered, tend to have problems with the most common design units. I believe this can be worked on and it may require different approaches for each installation. Additional study needed.
Highly over stated. The issues w/ birds stem largely from the Altamont Pass project which is decades old, used small turbines w/ fast moving blades which were mounted on lattice style towers where birds could perch.

Home owner's objections. The most common designs suffer from a low frequency noise/vibration. It travels a long way from the tower and living near one is not pleasant. There have also been some evidence that it is a problem for farm stock in the area as well. Again different designs may resolve the problem, but more studies are needed to get the facts and solutions
This is bull. Noise studies have been done but anti-wind factions won't accept them.

All that aside, most of it won't apply to Picken's Plan as the turbines would be located in the sparsely populated central US.

An NO plan is going to be perfect and satisfy everyone. They will all have drawbacks and some environmental shortfalls.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
dieselgrandad said:
This is bull. Noise studies have been done but anti-wind factions won't accept them. .
It is not bull. I have observed the problem myself. Note: There are different designs and the resulting noise varies greatly. This is not a deal killer, but it is a valid issue and needs to be addressed. I believe it can be, but we need more research and answers, not a knee jerk response that it does not exist.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
If you want to convince me there is a noise problem, then you're have to provide me w/ specifics.
  • Where is this installation?
  • How long has it been in operation?
  • Who is the turbine manufacturer, and what model turbines are they?
  • What was the wind speed, dba and frequency level?
  • How close were you?
  • Did you suffer any ill effects?
  • What studies do you know of that proves there is a problem?
You're also going to have to explain to me why noise from turbines is any worse than the noise people in urban environments are subjected to every day.
 

TurbinePower

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Location
Upstate SC
TDI
None
Random said:
Ummm...obviously you don't sell all of the electricity back.
You say this as though it should be blatantly obvious, but how do you manage such a system? How much do you sell back every day? Does it vary, do you sell back all but just enough to get you home? Do you hold a reserve?

How does energy stay "cheap" at night if everyone's charging up their cars (And therefore driving demand up quite a bit, obviously)? Of course, they'd still have all the normal nightly demands, plus this immense energy requirement to charge up all those cars.
 

meetis

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Location
MA (massachussetts)
TDI
2001 VW Jetta silver
I think one of the big assumptions of night time charging is that it will be a slower charge rate knowing that there is going to be 4 hours or more to charge the vehicle. Kind of like with the battery chargers for a car there are different charge rates for how fast you wish to charge the battery. The same could be done for a all electric car. Slower charge rates would have less of a impact on the grid Especially if the cars battery is not fully discharged needing only a partial charge.

Personally my idea for a all electric nation includes the idea of electric filling stations so to speak and a makeing things more standardized. We have a power distribution network nation wide all that would be needed would be a standard way to connect the high current lines and standardized charging system Then there would be no discussion about how far can the car go on 1 charge or where do you recharge. the answere would be at any filling station and it could be done in a manner to charge the car up in a very rapid manner if batteries or large capacitors were used at the stations for large amounts of current to flow.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Addressing the issue of intermittent winds and unreliable wind power:

I have always thought that an array of wind turbines should be coupled to pumping water into reservoirs whenever winds are high and load demand is low. Then when wind is insufficient and loads are high, the water can power a turbine as it falls downhill. Yes, there are some conversion inefficiencies involved, but it's better than not having the load balancing.

Another variation: an integrated stand-alone wind turbine/water reservoir that mechanically pumps (direct drive with no electric motors) water up into the reservoir...the water turbine would provide power. The water would then feed into the local water supply.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
dieselgrandad said:
If you want to convince me there is a noise problem, then you're have to provide me w/ specifics.
  • Where is this installation?
  • How long has it been in operation?
  • Who is the turbine manufacturer, and what model turbines are they?
  • What was the wind speed, dba and frequency level?
  • How close were you?
  • Did you suffer any ill effects?
  • What studies do you know of that proves there is a problem?
You're also going to have to explain to me why noise from turbines is any worse than the noise people in urban environments are subjected to every day.
1. Ireland
2. I believe about three years now.
3. Heck if I know.
4. I did not do any measuring.
5. I would guess a few hundred meters at the closest.
6. No, but I sure would not want to live any where close to them.
7. I only know of one study and that was my casual observations.

I don't have to explain anything to you. I will tell you that I don't like urban noise either. However I would rather have the airport, that is not far from my home than live near that wind farm.

Have you ever been anywhere close to a group of the really big jobs? You can fell it, more than hear it.
 
Last edited:

TurbinePower

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Location
Upstate SC
TDI
None
meetis said:
I think one of the big assumptions of night time charging is that it will be a slower charge rate knowing that there is going to be 4 hours or more to charge the vehicle. Kind of like with the battery chargers for a car there are different charge rates for how fast you wish to charge the battery. The same could be done for a all electric car. Slower charge rates would have less of a impact on the grid Especially if the cars battery is not fully discharged needing only a partial charge.
You would make a small dent in the impact by using more efficient (possibly?) slow charging, but if your system is designed and optimized for quick charging charging slow will likely not make an appreciable efficiency difference.

Neither quick nor slow charging addresses the impact of the increase in demand. With all those cars requiring electricity, demand will increase and the "cheap" night rates will likewise increase. You would see a kind of equalization between day and night time demands, with the heavy demands of manufacturing and climate control and other power-hungry applications during the day being balanced at night by the charging of the population's commuting vehicles.

Plugging the cars in during the day to "sell back" some of your unnecessary power would only serve to increase this homogenization of day and night demand, by allowing energy companies to run closer margins between constant power generation capacity and peak generation capacity. With the plants running at their constant capacity during the day to supply energy needs and the car batteries to supply the peak power loads throughout the day, the generation capacity will again be running at that same constant output during the night as it charges up all its various "mobile battery packs."

End result? No more cheap night rates, 'cause the generators are doing the same amount of work day and night.

Personally my idea for a all electric nation includes the idea of electric filling stations so to speak and a makeing things more standardized. We have a power distribution network nation wide all that would be needed would be a standard way to connect the high current lines and standardized charging system Then there would be no discussion about how far can the car go on 1 charge or where do you recharge. the answere would be at any filling station and it could be done in a manner to charge the car up in a very rapid manner if batteries or large capacitors were used at the stations for large amounts of current to flow.
You'd also need to upgrade the nation's electrical grid and generation capacity to handle the additional load and provide redundancy. Brownouts and even blackouts are common occurences in portions of the country, caused most frequently by the grid and generation capacity being overloaded and overdrawn, respectively.

With the electrical grid now supplying transportation energy, you'd need to engineer redundancy into the system to ensure that if one option goes down, you have other options to obtain your power. Redundancy exists in the present setup in that if one station runs out of gas or one distributor goes down, there are other distribution companies to supply that company's client stations with fuel, and there are other, competing fueling stations that can still supply fuel because their supply is not dependant on their neighbor's supply.

With "filling" stations all tied to the national electricity grid, a problem with the grid in an area would knock out all of the stations tied to that grid. You couldn't go across the street to a competitor, they're tied to the same power plants and distribution grid. End result? You're SOL if a portion of the network gets overstressed, struck by lightning, hit by a terrorist attack, goes critical and melts down, whatever have you.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
Originally posted by Joe_Meehan
1. Ireland
Can you be more specific? The wife and I are headed to the UK in a couple weeks to visit our daughter in Cardiff. A trip to Ireland for 4 or 5 days is on the table, and I'd like to visit this site.

Originally posted by Joe_Meehan
I don't have to explain anything to you.
True, but your "needs more study" comments, coupled w/ the noise objection, smacks very strongly of NIMBY-ism. Those are the two biggest excuses NIMBY/Anti-wind groups use.

I have been to no less than 6 wind installations, and none of them generated enough noise to prevent a normal conversation, even if you were w/in 50' of the towers. And I fail to see why people in rural areas should be granted a "pass" just because they don't like the noise, when people in urban areas have to live w/ noise every day.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
dieselgrandad said:
Can you be more specific? The wife and I are headed to the UK in a couple weeks to visit our daughter in Cardiff. A trip to Ireland for 4 or 5 days is on the table, and I'd like to visit this site.

Sorry I can't. I don't remember. It was just one of those days driving around. As I recall, it was in the north west (maybe county Sligo) but I don't really remember.


True, but your "needs more study" comments, coupled w/ the noise objection, smacks very strongly of NIMBY-ism. Those are the two biggest excuses NIMBY/Anti-wind groups use.

I have been to no less than 6 wind installations, and none of them generated enough noise to prevent a normal conversation, even if you were w/in 50' of the towers. And I fail to see why people in rural areas should be granted a "pass" just because they don't like the noise, when people in urban areas have to live w/ noise every day.
Well I am not really anti-wind. I believe that the noise (vibration) problem can be addressed.

While I don't agree with many of the NIMBY arguments, there are times when it is valid. We should not ignore the complaints just because they may be minor or someone else things it is not important. I would say the same for someone in the city who might be objecting to a type of change that would impact on them.

At no time could I not carry on a normal conversation, but I could FEEL the sound.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
Posted by Joe_Meeham
At no time could I not carry on a normal conversation, but I could FEEL the sound
That actually corresponds w/ a Danish study. Many men, particularly those middle aged or older are apparently more susceptible to the low, even sub-sonic frequencies.

Posted by Joe_Meeham
We should not ignore the complaints just because they may be minor or someone else things it is not important. I would say the same for someone in the city who might be objecting to a type of change that would impact on them.
Even though the change may be for the greater good? We're not talking about tearing down low income housing to build a high end condo. We're talking about virtually pollution free power that ultimately benefits the planet, being thwarted by gentrified urbanite NIMBY's who don't want to look at them.

BTW the location of the Irish installation?
 

xmustang

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Location
Emporia, Kansas
TDI
1999.5 tdi Jetta
Has anyone mentioned where T Boone Pickens is suggesting where to put these wind turbines? If I read his suggestion correctly he wants to build these wind turbines in the "wind corridor" from Texas to Canada. As a resident of Kansas I'm all for putting up wind farms. Anyone been to western Kansas before? Only thing bothered by the noise is going to be the cows. If no one else wants to build wind turbines then western Kansas can and will sell the excess electricity to the rest of you.:D
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
xmustaing said;
Has anyone mentioned where T Boone Pickens is suggesting where to put these wind turbines? If I read his suggestion correctly he wants to build these wind turbines in the "wind corridor" from Texas to Canada.
post 15 - dieselgrandad said:
All that aside, most of it won't apply to Picken's Plan as the turbines would be located in the sparsely populated central US.
Technically it's best to produce the power as close to where it will be used as possible. The biggest problem I see w/ the Picken's Plan is getting the power to major metro areas. While the sparse population may mean minimal opposition to turbines, the NIMBY's will come out of the woodwork in opposition to the transmission lines that will have get the power where it's needed.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
If each of us can feed power back to the grid in some form (generator, solar, wind) and it keeps power companies from needing new plants, it's all good. My strategy is to use the grid as storage by running the meter backwards when I'm generating power and buying it back when I need it. I'm waiting for the thinner photovoltaics to be available, and am buying a generator this summer to run on bio. We were without power for nine hours on Wednesday (auto accident) and often lose power in the winter, so it's good to have some generation capacity here.
 
Top