B5 front end alignment revisited

davran

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Location
Vancouver Island BC Canada
TDI
'05 Passat TDI Wagon
All,

I have an 07/2004 build Passat TDI wagon, which pulls to the right. Not knowing anything was different about this front suspension, I took it to a regular shop for an alignment, and nothing.

So, I've done a bunch of reading, and the VAG 1925 and 1925/3 tools are needed for raised-toe adjustment, right? What are the symptoms of raise-toe misalignment? Am I correct that camber is adjusted by moving the subframe?

None for the dealers in my area have anyone who is trained to align B5 vws/audis. The only one with the proper tool -- but no one trained to use it -- says that raised toe is only for bump-steer problems; is that true?

Thanks, Dave.
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Location
Connecticut, USA
TDI
15 Golf TDI SEL 14 Passat SEL, bought back by VW 11 Golf TDI, bought back by VW 05 Passat TDI 96 Passat TDI, sold
raised or lowered tow is for bump steer. Very few cars have adjustable bump steer from the factory. Out of spec bump steer would cause just that, over bump, suspension compression and re-bound the wheel to move, or steer. Picture the tie rod should be in a perfect unison with the control arms movement under bounce and re-bound. It's adjusted by raising or lowering the outer tie rod. As we speak I'm trying to find a good alignment shop to line up my daughters B5 and I don't even want them touching bump steer since the tie rods are factory, I just want to have the frame aligned since I have had it out for engine and trans replacement and when I used the aligning tools the wheel is slightly off center now :eek:
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Due to the somewhat uncommon suspension arrangement on these cars, that allows for a zero radius scrub on the front wheels when turning, the toe has both an in and out (normal) adjustment, and an up and down at the outside end adjustment. The suspension is shared with much more expensive cars from the Audi line.... even the previous versions of the $80-100k Audi A8 and Volkswagen Phaeton use the same setup. It is what makes the B5 drive so nice and not like most other FWD cars, even with very powerful engines driving the front wheels.

But, that complexity and superior driving dynamics come at a price, and that price is complexity and of course a specific alignment procedure.

I do not know of any modern alignment machine, including ANY of the approved Volkswagen systems that a dealer would be REQUIRED to have, that does not have the procedure and walk you through it. It is not hard. They even have pictures and videos right on the machines now... heck, our somewhat old Hunter machine even has it all there. So this BS about "being trained" on it is just that, BS. Follow directions, same as anything else.

If it is not set correctly, you can have a wandering feel and non-linear return to center feelings as well as perhaps some change in steering direction under load. It is most necessary after any front end component has been replaced, including of course the tie rods or outside tie rod ends.

There is a minor camber adjustment available, more of a camber equalizing left to right, with shifting the subframe, same as many other cars. It won't be a huge amount, but if you cannot get that set, something on the car is most likely bent. There is also a teeny tiny bit of adjustement available by shifting the upper control arm mounting bracket in the body, but usually not necessary... and that can be done on just one side, without changing the other side, unlike the subframe shift.

What I do, is shift the subframe to center/equalize the camber first. If I need to, I will shift the upper mount bracket. THEN, I check the regular toe, and make sure some dumbass before me didn't jam the up and down adjustment all the way to the top, since a lot of people with tools have no clue what they are doing around these cars. If the up and down adjustment is still somewhere in the middle, then chances are it has never been messed with, so I just set the regular toe, and test drive the car. If it all checks OK, then I am done. If it feels loose, or in some way not like it should be, I recheck the raised toe setting.

Most of the time, though, when I am aligning these it is after a component replacement, and I am doing the raised toe setting anyway.
 

thundershorts

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
west chester pa
TDI
2015 passat tdi sel premium 2015 golf s tdi gls tdi b5.5, 2002 eurovan,Peugeot 505 td,Citroen cx25 prestige
Its always been amazing to me how little attention people pay to the importance of alignment. New cars people expect to come with correct alignment, but they don't. Both new 2015 tdi's I bought were way off, so it is reasonable to assume any car with miles is suspect for misalignment.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
To be fair, lots of new cars' alignment gets messed up in transport, after it leaves the factory.

My 2016 Sprinter was one such animal. In addition to three of its four tires being shaped like eggs. :rolleyes:

PDI *should* catch this, but it all too often does not.
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Location
Connecticut, USA
TDI
15 Golf TDI SEL 14 Passat SEL, bought back by VW 11 Golf TDI, bought back by VW 05 Passat TDI 96 Passat TDI, sold
I remember setting up bump steer on our World Challenge Camaro with a custom front end. We'd measure ride height, remove the spring and while checking tow move each control arm up and down from ride height adjusting the tie rod height until we got the minimum amount of toe change. It does make a big difference when set up right but I agree, not many shops equipped to do it correctly or that will take the time
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Can anyone post up a link to a good walk through on diy alignment? Im wanting to lower my car about an inch and add a rear say bar for some fall time fun up toward the park way but before i do i want to be self reliant on the alignment.
 

davran

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Location
Vancouver Island BC Canada
TDI
'05 Passat TDI Wagon
Thank you all, I've had a '92 jetta td, and an '00 golf tdi, but never a b5, so the front end is new to me.

Finding someone who knows what there doing with this where I live is becoming impossible; I may have to go visit friends on mainland BC or in WA state to find someone useful.

Unfortunately, most shops, including dealers, like to talk like they know what they're doing, but, but I'm finding that to not be the case.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well just so you know, EVERY Volkswagen dealer HAD to have the proper alignment tools when the B5 debuted in 1998. It was a required tool. So unless a dealer is a new franchise, started after 2006 or so, it should still have the proper tool set.

Audi had to have it a couple years earlier, in 1995, for the A4 and later A6.

The alignment machine itself, as I said, is not really anything extra special, and most big name machines are on the approved list. Our dealer used a Hunter machine and rack, but there are others like Hoffmann that are also approved.

Our Hunter machine here has all the info, too.

Now some tire store is not likely to have the tool set (I think it is around $660), so don't expect a proper alignment from them. But any dealer, or any shop that specializes in VAG products that also does alignments, is I would think going to be equipped with the tool.

Here is a couple pics of the video playing on our Hunter machine:





It literally walks you right through the process. Pretty straighforward. If someone has the tools, and cannot follow these directions, they should not be working on cars. Especially dealing with something as safety related as steering and suspension.
 
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davran

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Location
Vancouver Island BC Canada
TDI
'05 Passat TDI Wagon
BTW, my entire problem turned out to be the tires, even after I rotated them (even after the inner and outer tie-rods were replaced). I got 17" wheels and tires from a traded-in 'dieselgate' '15 Jetta, and the problem disappeared.
 
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