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Old January 19th, 2012, 21:19   #2401
Niner
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How much psi does the VW Tdi use in the injection process? 20K psi? 30k psi? Bosch has many products that could fit the bill. In your argument of a cheapened design... maybe, but I would say that Bosch would have addressed that by now.
In my opinion...

The pump has a materials problem. Steel piston in an aluminum bore yields aluminum bore wear material as being sacrificial, swarf not being magnetic (steel) confirms this.

The pump has alignment problems. The cam follower has no means in the design of staying perfectly aligned with the cam, it's not secured in any manner that will keep it in constant alignment at all times, like a pinned rocker arm roller would.

There aren't enough rollers to bear the load on the cam for the amount of pressure generated, and the one roller being used is too small in diameter, too many rpm's, and is overloaded.

Both cam and roller get galled in current configuration.

Both generate wear materials that rapidly contaminate and destroy and cause destruction and replacement of the whole fuel system, to the tune of $7 to 8000, with parts constantly on back order and a long down time.

If those aren't enough defects to keep folks away from buying one of these, perhaps $3400 turbo failures, $6000 DSG failures, $1800 mechatronix failures, and who knows how much to replace a diesel particulate filter failure.

Most everything about this car is under engineered and not designed to run much more than 150,000 km or 90,000 miles, per volkswagens own statements.
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Old January 19th, 2012, 21:23   #2402
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Can you name a pump that would be a better OEM replacement? If so, why hasn't it been used as of now?
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Old January 19th, 2012, 23:35   #2403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerOwner View Post
How much psi does the VW Tdi use in the injection process? 20K psi? 30k psi? Bosch has many products that could fit the bill. In your argument of a cheapened design... maybe, but I would say that Bosch would have addressed that by now.
1800 Bar, which is approximately 26,000 psi. Bosch should have addressed this issue by now, but that does not mean that they have done it.

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Can you name a pump that would be a better OEM replacement? If so, why hasn't it been used as of now?
The Delphi pump is supposed to be better, but it was not designed for this application. It would have to physically fit, plus it would have to run in the proper rpm range, plus meet all of the other criteria of pressure, volume, etc.

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Old January 20th, 2012, 01:50   #2404
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Well, it should physically fit (as the 1.2 TDI, using the Delphi pump, is the same basic engine, just smaller bore and stroke, and one less cylinder, but same external dimensions at the timing belt side), and it would run in the proper RPM range (as the 1.2 TDI runs in the same RPM range as the 2.0).

But, I'm seeing a Siemens pump on the 1.6, so that means that the Delphi pump isn't even providing enough volume for a 1.6, let alone a 2.0.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 05:50   #2405
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Originally Posted by Niner View Post
In my opinion...

The pump has a materials problem. Steel piston in an aluminum bore yields aluminum bore wear material as being sacrificial, swarf not being magnetic (steel) confirms this.

The pump has alignment problems. The cam follower has no means in the design of staying perfectly aligned with the cam, it's not secured in any manner that will keep it in constant alignment at all times, like a pinned rocker arm roller would.

There aren't enough rollers to bear the load on the cam for the amount of pressure generated, and the one roller being used is too small in diameter, too many rpm's, and is overloaded.

Both cam and roller get galled in current configuration.

Both generate wear materials that rapidly contaminate and destroy and cause destruction and replacement of the whole fuel system, to the tune of $7 to 8000, with parts constantly on back order and a long down time.

If those aren't enough defects to keep folks away from buying one of these, perhaps $3400 turbo failures, $6000 DSG failures, $1800 mechatronix failures, and who knows how much to replace a diesel particulate filter failure.

Most everything about this car is under engineered and not designed to run much more than 150,000 km or 90,000 miles, per volkswagens own statements.
Niner, your info. on the pump is interesting. Can you elaborate on your source of this information, particularly the part where VW says its only good from 90K miles? If that's the case, then why not just make this part of the timing belt maintenance? It's expensive, but much less then having to deal with the problems of the pump disintegrating.

My car is at 97K so, I'm feeling rather nervous. I love the car so far, but the idea of an 10K repair (however low the odds might be), is disconcerting. I'm about to have the timing belt done, and I may anti-up for a new pump at the same time (this car is not turning out to be such a bargain). My biggest concern is that even the replacement pump won't be good for the next 100K miles. Also, when buying a pump, how can I know for sure it's the "latest" version?

There are plenty of applications where aluminum and steel are used together. I can see VW under-engineering this part on the first batch of TDIs, but I don't understand how they could continue to sell this same system for three plus years on thousands of cars. If the failure rate is significant, it could do a great deal of damage to their reputation, not to mention the costs of doing warranty work. It just doesn't make economic sense to me.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 06:13   #2406
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Niner, your info. on the pump is interesting. Can you elaborate on your source of this information, particularly the part where VW says its only good from 90K miles? If that's the case, then why not just make this part of the timing belt maintenance? It's expensive, but much less then having to deal with the problems of the pump disintegrating.
I've been watching and have seen many 100,000 plus cars show up on eBay. Does that mean they have no had any failure in that time? No but I've seen far more 100,000 mile plus cars than those that have had failures.

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My car is at 97K so, I'm feeling rather nervous. I love the car so far, but the idea of an 10K repair (however low the odds might be), is disconcerting. I'm about to have the timing belt done, and I may anti-up for a new pump at the same time (this car is not turning out to be such a bargain). My biggest concern is that even the replacement pump won't be good for the next 100K miles. Also, when buying a pump, how can I know for sure it's the "latest" version?
Well, it seems "according to VW" you are on borrowed time. I'm no expert and I'm only going off the little I've seen so far. IMO it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to inspect the roller, cup and for wear.

The one and only pic I've seen of a failure (and I would like to see anything else that might be available) it was the roller that failed.

What exactly is failing is what I would like to know. With VW keeping all the failed pumps, I'm not sure it's clear.

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There are plenty of applications where aluminum and steel are used together. I can see VW under-engineering this part on the first batch of TDIs, but I don't understand how they could continue to sell this same system for three plus years on thousands of cars. If the failure rate is significant, it could do a great deal of damage to their reputation, not to mention the costs of doing warranty work. It just doesn't make economic sense to me.
No it doesn't.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 06:38   #2407
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I've been watching and have seen many 100,000 plus cars show up on eBay. Does that mean they have no had any failure in that time? No but I've seen far more 100,000 mile plus cars than those that have had failures.



Well, it seems "according to VW" you are on borrowed time. I'm no expert and I'm only going off the little I've seen so far. IMO it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to inspect the roller, cup and for wear.

The one and only pic I've seen of a failure (and I would like to see anything else that might be available) it was the roller that failed.

What exactly is failing is what I would like to know. With VW keeping all the failed pumps, I'm not sure it's clear.



No it doesn't.

Yeah, it's the "according to VW" part I would like to verify. I did write VW, so it will be interesting to see the reply. I can swallow buying a new pump, but I want to know that is a good solution and have some confidence in the car.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 06:41   #2408
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I've been watching and have seen many 100,000 plus cars show up on eBay. Does that mean they have no had any failure in that time? No but I've seen far more 100,000 mile plus cars than those that have had failures.
Not really sure what your saying here. Do you mean to imply that there are very few CRs that make it over 100K miles without a HPFP failure? If so, then the NHTSA numbers should be climbing significantly as the 09 start to reach 4 years on the road. With the on-going investigation, I don't believe that VWOA/Audi can legally sweep any of these failures under the rug. I haven't looked at the data for a while but IIRC most of the failures were on medium mileage (30 - 60K) vehilces.

So I guess I would really like to see your numbers on this claim.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 06:57   #2409
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Not really sure what your saying here. Do you mean to imply that there are very few CRs that make it over 100K miles without a HPFP failure?
No, unfortunately, I'm not always clear.

I'm saying that based upon only what I'm seeing, there are more and more cars getting to over 100,000 plus. lsnover is there with no problems.


Quote:
If so, then the NHTSA numbers should be climbing significantly as the 09 start to reach 4 years on the road. With the on-going investigation, I don't believe that VWOA/Audi can legally sweep any of these failures under the rug. I haven't looked at the data for a while but IIRC most of the failures were on medium mileage (30 - 60K) vehilces.
I'm watching these threads as it will determine my actions down the road but no, I do not believe that VW will be able to hide failures either and as far as we know, the failures have been pretty rare.

I see the problem here less with it being a major worry, but rather a major expense in the rare cases it does happen.

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So I guess I would really like to see your numbers on this claim.
No claim on my part.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 07:36   #2410
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Thanks, Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. I am more concerned with the failure because of talking my wife into the 2011 Golf instead of a Fit. If the Golf fails then I will have to live with the "It's your fault we bought the piece of %^&*".
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Old January 20th, 2012, 07:39   #2411
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Thanks, Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. I am more concerned with the failure because of talking my wife into the 2011 Golf instead of a Fit. If the Golf fails then I will have to live with the "It's your fault we bought the piece of %^&*".
LOL, that's my one and only concern also. She wanted a Sportswagen but was perfectly fine with getting the less expensive 2.5.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 07:41   #2412
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Thanks, Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. I am more concerned with the failure because of talking my wife into the 2011 Golf instead of a Fit. If the Golf fails then I will have to live with the "It's your fault we bought the piece of %^&*".
I'd rather have a Golf with a bad pump parked in the yard than a running Fit.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 10:58   #2413
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Can you name a pump that would be a better OEM replacement? If so, why hasn't it been used as of now?
Hard, if not impossible to do, since the whole fueling system is an integrated design by Bosch, probably with contracts signed for guaranteed quantities over the years to offset the R&D costs of design.

I seriously doubt, if VW and Bosch have done nothing for 4 years, that anything will ever be done to correct the flawed design. They've already tried 3 revisions on the pump, and 2012 pumps still fail and destroy the whole fuel system. I predict the resale value of these cars once out of warranty, and approaching the 90,000 mile VW "lifecycle", is going to plummet, like off a cliff. Waaaaaaay too expensive to fix all the potential failures, just in parts alone, let alone the labor and special equipment you need to "adapt" the whole new fuel system so it will run.

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Old January 20th, 2012, 11:13   #2414
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I'll continue to drive my '10, as a place holder, until the warranty runs out, and a few more of the newer generation A6 Quattro and 528 X-Drives (gassers) show up on the used market. I think we're going to see a lot of CRs on the used market in the coming years, as people come to the same conclusions. Very sad, it is a cool little car to drive.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 12:36   #2415
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Hard, if not impossible to do, since the whole fueling system is an integrated design by Bosch, probably with contracts signed for guaranteed quantities over the years to offset the R&D costs of design.

I seriously doubt, if VW and Bosch have done nothing for 4 years, that anything will ever be done to correct the flawed design. They've already tried 3 revisions on the pump, and 2012 pumps still fail and destroy the whole fuel system. I predict the resale value of these cars once out of warranty, and approaching the 90,000 mile VW "lifecycle", is going to plummet, like off a cliff. Waaaaaaay too expensive to fix all the potential failures, just in parts alone, let alone the labor and special equipment you need to "adapt" the whole new fuel system so it will run.
I'm going to bet that unless the failure rate gets well above the half of 1 percent it seems to be currently at the vast majority of people won't even be aware that there is a problem.

That if there is more of a problem, the aftermarket developers will see a potential and come up with something and in real world high mileage repairs it wont be anywhere near what VW is claiming.
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