CJ-4 oil data and discussion repository

Interesting

I'm looking at the last 3 UOA's on my Jeep Liberty CRD, which is using Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40, CI4+. With 8k, 3k, and 5K miles respectively on these UOA's, my BlackStone reports have these levels, from oldest to newest:

8K miles TDT 5W-40 CI4+
Calcium - 2661
Magnesium - 328
Phosphorus - 1193
Zinc - 1354


3K miles TDT 5W-40 CI4+
Calcium - 2475
Magnesium - 499
Phosphorus - 1133
Zinc - 1343

5K miles TDT 5W-40 CI4+
Calcium - 2401
Magnesium - 522
Phosphorus - 1189
Zinc - 1350

Not a TDI, but shouldn't make any difference. I've done every oil change and I bought the oil and it's been Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 (or the older T&SUV 5W-40 CI4+) since the first change.

I'm a bit puzzled by the lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels on your VOA for the CI4 TDT.

Seems Amsoil has recently changed DEO...

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/onevoice/OneVoice_DieselOils.pdf

Bob_Fout said:

Seems Amsoil has recently changed DEO...

https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/onevoice/OneVoice_DieselOils.pdf

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Interesting. I'm due for an oil change and I do use DEO. Curious to see if I notice any changes with my car.

I was thinking that too. Unless you run more than 10K intervals, I don't know if you will. Plus they really don't say what's changed.

I asked over in BITOG when they thought the new DEO would make its way into the warehouses.

Looks like 1 Apr when new the new data sheet and MSDS will be out for DEO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...owflat&Number=1414528&Main=104101#Post1414528

whitedog said:

I just got back the VOA samples from Blackstone on Mobil 1 TDT CJ-4 and CI-4. I have the PDF on my pictures page if you want to see the whole report, but here are the significant numbers:

CJ-4:
Calcium: 938
Magnesium: 714
Phosphorus: 856
Zinc: 991

TBN: 10.9

CI-4:

Calcium: 1613
Magnesium: 511
Phosphorus: 927
Zinc: 1072

TBN: 12.8

Comments? Questions? Suggestions?

I also sent in VOA to Stavely from these same bottles and am awaiting the results.

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Thanks for doing and posting the VOA's whitedog!

This has me interested, as in the VOA I am not seeing as high of numbers as I thought before. Referring to data as shown from the UOAs when I was comparing 505.01/507 UOAs to TDT and Rotella T UOAs. So it looks like they all have less when it is a VOA as opposed to a UOA then.

This makes me think I still want to use a ZDDP additive to TDT even though it is still higher then other VAG oils I want to see it over 1200 ppm closer to 1400 ppm so I "feel" safe/better lol ... my .02

Yours?

Ok, so what is the difference between a VOA and a UOA. Used Oil Analysis and what Vw Of America??? lol

whitedog said:

I just got back the VOA samples from Blackstone on Mobil 1 TDT CJ-4 and CI-4. I have the PDF on my pictures page if you want to see the whole report, but here are the significant numbers:

CJ-4:
Calcium: 938
Magnesium: 714
Phosphorus: 856
Zinc: 991

TBN: 10.9

CI-4:

Calcium: 1613
Magnesium: 511
Phosphorus: 927
Zinc: 1072

TBN: 12.8

Comments? Questions? Suggestions?

I also sent in VOA to Stavely from these same bottles and am awaiting the results.

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Want to see some wild results? This is from Stavely:

CJ-4:
Calcium: 926
Magnesium: 641
Phosphorus: 1064
Zinc: 1174

TBN: 8.7

CI-4:
Calcium: 2659
Magnesium: 452
Phosphorus: 1294
Zinc: 1431

TBN: 11.1

Quite different results, don't ya think?

Somebody's full of $#!+. But which one is it?

FL2AK-tdi said:

Ok, so what is the difference between a VOA and a UOA. Used Oil Analysis and what Vw Of America??? lol

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Virgin oil analysis.

whitedog said:

Want to see some wild results? ... Quite different results, don't ya think?

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this is the reality of UOAs.

in fact, if you took two oil samples from the same bottle, mailed on sample to "Lab A", then waited one day and mailed the second sample to "Lab A" i would not be surprised if the results were significantly different.

also, at oil labs all sample containers are placed on mixing wheels until moments before they are anaylzed.

so if you hold the oil bottle and shake it all around and up and down for a few minutes, then pour oil back and forth between the two sampling bottles until the desired level is reaching in each, that might could possibly have a small effect ... but maybe not

the data received from these labs is intended to establish trends and then identify when variations from established trends occur. here at TDIclub we sometimes read more into UOA and VOA results than the creators of the anaylsis equipment intended.

SUNRG said:

the data received from these labs is intended to establish trends and then identify when variations from established trends occur. here at TDIclub we sometimes read more into UOA and VOA results than the creators of the anaylsis equipment intended.

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Yeah, I know that, in aviation, we use UOA for trend monitoring, not to determine how well an oil is performing.

"Want to see some wild results? This is from Stavely:

CJ-4:
Calcium: 926
Magnesium: 641
Phosphorus: 1064
Zinc: 1174

TBN: 8.7

CI-4:
Calcium: 2659
Magnesium: 452
Phosphorus: 1294
Zinc: 1431

TBN: 11.1

Quite different results, don't ya think?"


Poppy was sloppy in some lab handling techniques, no? Similar to CSI scenes on TV where a dropper of test chemical out of the lab store is used, and the same dropper is dipped again and again into each sample liquid, then back into the lab bottle, but somehow, no contamination ever occurs. I'm no chemist, but I remember enough high school chemistry that the dropper is not inserted into each testing vials liquid and finally, to complete the contamination, back into the main lab bottle. I wonder if real chemists laugh when they see these scenes on TV. But, I suppose it can happen on a $25 lab sample as well.

After all, we are dealing with $25 lab results, not DNA analysis. Still, I was hoping for a bit less variance than +- 30%





__________________

ranger1 said:

Similar to CSI scenes on TV

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LOL, I hate that show.

There is no problem with this lab data; these two labs are simply using different ASTM protocols to obtain their TBN's. The results from Blackstone are comparable to what you see on spec sheets, ie "ASTM D-2896". Oil Analyzers (and most other labs), uses the "ASTM D-4739" test protocol - this results in TBN's that are typically 1.5-2.0 points lower. I believe the difference has to do with the specific type of acid used to "titrate" the oil as well as the endpoint of the test. The additive treat levels of the CJ-4/SM lubes are lower in order to meet the "SAPS" limits - particularly the Sulfated ash limit of 1.0%. The Zinc in the formulations contribute ~ 20%-25% of this ash, hence the ZDDP levels have been lowered as well. To get the best performance you have to carefully balance the # of AW and detergent/dispersant additives. These various chemicals "compete" for a foothold on the metal substrates throughout the engine - particually the ferrous(iron bearing) surfaces like valvetrain parts and
cylinder walls.

TS

The lower levels of Ca, Zn and P in CJ4 is understood. The different levels of those additives in the CI4+ rated oil, from the same lab on VOA and a TDT UOA is what interested me.

A comparison chart of VOA's from BITOG on Mobil 1 T&SUV/TDT 5W-40CI4+ shows a much higher level of Zn, P and Ca than those recently posted, closer in line to the 2nd lab results that WD posted.

That chart is here: (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=478127#Post478127)

Unless Mobil 1 changed the formulation of TDT 5W-40 before superceding it with CJ4, that particular VOA looks closer to CJ4 specs than CI4+.

A moot point for me since I can no longer find CI4+ TDT.

The API allows small variations in additive levels - even for licensed formulations. In addition, the variability of the test method, ie spectrographic analysis using "inductively coupled plasma" (ICP), is on the order of +/- 5%. Finally, additive depletion occurs during use and this affects the levels you see in a UOA....it's also possible that Exxon/Mobil was shifting additive levels as they transitioned from the CI-4+ to CJ-4 specification....

TS

TooSlick's post on 505.01/507.00 and CJ-4 specs:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=243437

Thanks Bob...

I probably should have included the VW 506.01 spec as well....
The VW 506.01 spec oils used a high additive treat rate (ie, high TBN) and look like an 0w-30, HD diesel oil. Even with a high level of anti-wear additives, these SAE 0w-30 oils don't perform well in high soot environments.

I'd install a by-pass filter if you're using a low vis., VW 506.01 formulation in a TDI....

TS

Amsoil has released the specs on the new DEO. Chart updated.

The higher NOACK has me baffled. Thoughts TS?

Bob_Fout said:

The higher NOACK has me baffled. Thoughts TS?

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Maybe so the oil does't vaporize/burn off as easily? I thought that's what that NOACK test was for.

lovemybug said:

Maybe so the oil does't vaporize/burn off as easily? I thought that's what that NOACK test was for.

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Higher NOACK means more burns off. It's a measure of what percent is lost by weight in one hour at xyz temperature.

Bob_Fout said:

Higher NOACK means more burns off. It's a measure of what percent is lost by weight in one hour at xyz temperature.

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Ah, ok. I thought the higher number meant it was more resistant to burn off.

Noack volatility is a function of the both the additive chemistry and the basestock. In this case the additive treat level has gone up, so they could be using a slightly higher % of carrier oil for the additive package. Amsoil typically uses an low viscosity ester for this purpose, which would increase the evaporation rate a bit.

The high temp, high shear (HT/HS), viscosity of this oil is 4.0 Centipoise @150C - that's about 10% thicker than a 5w-40, VW 505.01 formulation and 10% thinner than a 15w-40, HDEO. That was done to achieve a small fuel savings in OTR trucks, but I think it's a decent compromise for European gas/diesel engines, which typically require HT/HS >3.5 Cp.

Many old school truckers still consider SAE 5w-40 to be too thin for warm weather use, so I expect Amsoils' new, CJ-4/SM rated 15w-40 to be the big seller.

I use the DEO 5w-40 in my car. Been using it year-round. Just happens to be my personal preference.

Bob,

You should add the new CJ-4/SM rated, Amsoil 15w-40 ("DME"), to this list. Many TDI owners also have turbodiesel pickups that call for this grade.

TS

Sure, I can add Amsoil 15w40 and Redline 15w40, both full synthetic.

Bob_Fout said:

Sure, I can add Amsoil 15w40 and Redline 15w40, both full synthetic.

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If you're going to do that, shouldn't you put in a disclaimer stating that that is truck oil, not tdi oil?

FL2AK-tdi said:

If you're going to do that, shouldn't you put in a disclaimer stating that that is truck oil, not tdi oil?

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Looky-see at the chart in the first post