DC's 1756VK-assisted B4

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Alright. Since I was there, examining my charge air system for additional leaks, I decided to measure out the volume of said system. After about 2.5 hours due to figuring out how to effectively fill and drain things, I am confident that the B4's charge air intake is in the neighborhood of 7.75 liters between the turbo outlet and the cylinder head. WIll it have much of an effect? Probably not, but it is one of those details I've wanted to know just for fun.

Since I've been working on adjusting my fuel map, I've not had a chance to adjust anything else. I quickly found that I had a boost leak after adjusting the map. I had a 3/8" split in the coupler to the EGR that wasn't visible without disassembly. The added fuel of a hammered pump accelerated the warping of the aluminum EGR block off plate, to which I've now replaced with a steel version that didn't cost an arm an a leg and a newborn. Additionally, while finishing up the measuring I just completed, I noticed that 1 nut on the exhaust manifold lost a nut on cylinder 1 and had a loosened one on cylinder 2. Replaced the missing one and tightened down the others. Hopefully this is the second to last hardware R&R that I need to complete.

I will post about the fuel map observations soon enough.
 
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Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Turbo coming off the car in a few minutes to see what up, but internal pin breakage is suspected again. That is 2x with a vane gap of ~1.2mm and no problems when larger than 1.5 mm. Picked up a variety of 1/8" rods from McMaster before work of M42 tool steel, D2 tool steel, C2 tungsten carbide, and 17-4 PH stainless. I may save these rods, but I’m not sure yet.


Anyhow, it appears that the wobbling pins from before decided to wobble again and the holes are wallowed out and the vane gap is unlikely the issue. I used exhaust putty, aka sodium silicate, to attempt to cement in the large, knurled alignment pin for the vane assembly in place in the cast iron housing. I assumed/hopped that this'd be enough. Well, the sodium silicate broke down and the pins wobbled a little in one end and the heated allow of the vanes got smooshed on the sides and things just go worse over the week I was driving it. Here are picks of the vane assembly end.

Click to embiggen:


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Digital Corpus

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Mar 14, 2008
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I need some ideas for fixing this, please.

I'd like to drill out a bit more of the cast iron around the holes and place a metal insert that'd hold the pin(s) in place. Thermal expansion and contraction are an issue.

Additionally, I'd like to drill *through* the vane assembly chunk of metal so that the pin that goes into those holes is held down by the cage so when the play alloys things to move again in 60K miles or so. Basically use the entire thickness of the vane assembly to "right" the pin. Car is down and I'd preferably affect the repairs on Tuesday/Wednesday.

Edit: To be clear, the cast iron housing end of the alignment pin holes is similarly deformed and that's what I would like to repair.
 

[486]

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Mar 1, 2014
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MN
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02 golf ALH
ream holes next size bigger (wherever they clean up) for a press fit on the next size bigger of drill rod?

the press fit part is important, then it doesn't rattle back and forth and wallow out again
 

[486]

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Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
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02 golf ALH
I was planning on an interference fit. Worried about the brittleness of cast iron though
I'd bet on it being cast steel rather than iron, 'least my garrett 1749v turbine housing was certainly making cast steel chips rather than cast iron chips while machining it

.002" is a very reasonable press on such small pins.
Get two reamers, one for around .002" or so interference, and one for .0005"
then all the dowels will stay in the tighter side of the housings when you separate them.

The slotted one I'd drill through the back side with the current pin size, then ream it back through the larger size so that you're starting the reamer along its whole diameter and the hole will support it somewhat through the opening in the slot.

Most of those drill rods are supplied annealed, so they aren't all that much better than a36 as-is. The carbide's kind of certainly out as it's pretty brittle and once broken off in the hole you're in for creative extraction.
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Delay on reassembly due in part to the vane actuation linkage needing to be R&R, but maybe not immediately. Definitely within a year’s span. I expect to be driving it to work tomorrow.
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Been busy. Playing enough with my vanes that I know where they should be to not choke the engine but allow down low power measured by seat of the pants. Modified the 3 empty measuring blocks so I can measure VE in one, AFR in another, and RPM-IQ-N75-MAP in another, which since I have the maps, allows me to verify N75 and Boost Request in one go. WBO2 goes in this month hopefully.

Just finished cleaning up a set of injectors that have a better service history than mine, but have physical abuse on their outsides. The cleaning with ultrasonic bath made it unclear if the abuse happened before or after they were painted by DBW. Through the cleaning, I identified one of my R520s that had a loose needle by nature of it falling out more easily than the other three. None of the needles from the donor nozzles were larger so it stayed where it was and this explains the "1 nozzle is off" thing I hear when the fuel is warm.

Got more coming down the pipe as I juggle things. I'll probably pop the PP764's on my old injectors and send out the R520's and those injectors for service. WFC issue is present and annoying still and it seems to be lowering itself a bit since I've lowered the torque limiter 3 times and it still comes back. The pump isn't leaking so I'm guessing it is slowly on its way out. I'll physically inspect it when I swap out the seals in a week or two.
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
AFR Smoke Map

Alright, so it's time for one of those longer, detailed posts I've not been writing in a while. After all, I like details. Details also take a long time to process. Side note, It took me a while to figure out how to process and parse 130 MiB CSV files with 10 ms data resolution for another project of mine...

Anyhow, I've been wanting to adjust my tune for a long time. I've been playing with it quite a bit in order to understand the hardware too, mostly the electromechanical properties of the IP. I think my WFC variability is also related to whether or not the ECU detects to overfueling moment on the faulty injector nozzle or not too, but that's for another time.

The first thing I knew I'd need or want when doing the tune on the car was the volumetric efficiency of the engine, which is why I did those tests a few years back. Also, a compressor map is kinda required, somewhat, without extensive guess-and-check for the turbo's operating parameters. Having a properly setup IP is useful too, but that is the 12 mm in the works.

Due to WFC, aka Warp Field Collapse, aka asking for fuel when the cam plate can't give you more, I'm using the Torque Limiter as a correction map and placing limits of fueling to 50 mV under when I have a stall. This strategy is working out fairly well. Actual usable power on the other hand is dependent upon if I have enough air to burn the fuel I want to inject. This means I need to match vane position to boost pressure to fuel quantity to air mass. Vane position and boost pressure are largely taken care of due the the tuning I've already paid for.

However, since there are limitations on the turbo as to how much air mass it can flow with a given input, that means there is nairy a point in trying to spool the sucker when, by reputation, it won't spool. This led to using the Smoke Map/Limiter to being the dominant control for power output. However, I wanted a better guess at the guesswork of adjusting it, so I developed some simple Excel tools (simple compared to managing & auditing +30K cells in Excel over fiscal years) to create and modify my smoke map by way of AFR. Time for some images:

Base AFR Map:


Initial RPM to use the smoke map to limit some starting IQ, possibly. It smooths things out a touch once the engine is spinning, or so it seems. Due to dynamic idling, the 21-RPM-aliased 800 & 1000 RPM manage the max fueling in the majority of operating modes. From there, I increate RPMs at 200 intervals, aliased to 21 RPM up until 1995 (2000) RPM. From there I do two quick hops at 250 RPM since the turbo is spooling at ~2200 and fully spooled at 3000 RPM, and then I taper off after 4000 RPM to just a touch over 5000 RPM. These points were chosen due to the spatial resolution for spooling the turbo, light load driving, and the turbo's transient performance.

Since this is the smoke map measuring air mass to fuel mass would be fairly straight forward. But the problem is, we look at boost pressure, not air mass, to gauge how well the turbo is operating. Due to volumetric efficiency, this means that different masses of air will provide the same pressure ration for the turbo. Through some careful calculations, which I'm not currently showing, I have a hefty Excel sheet that will spit out comparative numbers to the surge and turbine speed limit (PR v Mass flow) for each RPM instances I specify while interpolating the volumetric efficiency at the said instance. Here is the cliff notes table I generated at about 0.3 PR intervals:


From there, I used the minima & maxima from the PR v RPM bands to dice up the Air Mass axis on the smoke map to be more friendly to the problem of aliasing. That's why the numbers are "weird".

I then applied some general logic to both the Base AFR maps and this latter table:
  • Trying to spool the turbo prior to 2200 RPM is mostly pointless, but some extra energy help from fuel is beneficial up to 200 RPM sooner, Doesn't hurt to ease into that too.
  • Turbine speed increases in a semi-linear fashion with PR, but 30K to 60K requires more energy than 60K to 90K, or 90K to 120K RPM of the turbine. The speeds are arbitrary, but the relative concept is the same. This means that when the turbo is slow at low PRs, don't force feed it fuel because that will just smoke up the place with limited results. It will take time to spin up so don't be wasteful
  • Once it's closer or already accelerating, a extra dump of fuel can be had, but once you get enough boost, and/or your engine is pumping enough air, you don't need as much fuel, so you need to taper off.

Some of those principles are easily applied to the Base AFR smoke map, but some are more complicated. After some organizational work in Excel, I created an AFR offset table with those AFR offsets to induce more fueling:


I used a plugin to apply bessel spline interpolation to fatten the affected region. It's analogous to anti-aliasing hard lines on an LCD screen. I then just add those maps together, dynamically, to get the final [test] AFR-based smoke map:


This is the third iteration of this version of this map and second version of creating and AFR-based smoke map. The fueling numbers are not properly accurate since the pump voltage maps has been changed, but it's close enough for the time being. I am likely to knock out the 500 mg/str airmass column, move the 400 mg/str over, and replace that left most column with something between 200 & 300 mg/str since I do live near the mountains.


Now, some might wonder how much of a difference in fueling is made by the AFR adjustment you see above. The following screenshots are without the offset and then with the offset. Divide the resultant values by 100 to get fueling or air mass mg/str.

Without AFR offset:


With AFR offset:


As you might be able to see, a 3 mg/str delta can be significant enough to provide a 1.5 AFR delta in favor or more fuel. For subtleties like this, I'll use some math an automation to apply my changes. My test drive home was pretty good, despite being at night. I'll be testing it again today. I do need to lower the idle AFR by about 2 points for the clutch drivability though; maybe.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I think my WFC variability is also related to whether or not the ECU detects to overfueling moment on the faulty injector nozzle or not too, but that's for another time
....
Due to WFC, aka Warp Field Collapse, aka asking for fuel when the cam plate can't give you more, I'm using the Torque Limiter as a correction map and placing limits of fueling to 50 mV under when I have a stall.
'wfc' is just the pump voltage map asking for more than 5v across the QA
I beat my head against this a while back, the ECU uses a factor of 1.22 in the pump voltage map, so if you have anything above "4098" in the map itself you're asking for more than 5V

On the idle afr in the smoke maps, below idle I have mine set to somewhere around 30mg/str, and the torque limit maps too, maybe the driver's wish map? Anyways, set it up to allow max fuel below idle and you'll never stall the thing.
It does let out a puff of smoke that I absolutely hate, but less embarrassing than having to turn the key all the way off to be able to crank it again while the lady behind you with no knowledge of a manual transmission thinks you're maliciously keeping her from progressing through the intersection and voices this with the horn.

your mention of 10ms data points intrigues me, are you running a piggyback datalogger? all the vag-com logging I've done has a pitifully slow resolution nowhere near that.
 

BustedBolts

Veteran Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Location
PA USA
TDI
2001 and 2002 Golf's
As far as tuning the voltage map, are you referencing group 16 "I think" that shows min and max pump voltages? There is no benefit to requesting more than the max value displayed there. Maybe msa15 doesn't have that measuring block tho.
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
'wfc' is just the pump voltage map asking for more than 5v across the QA
I beat my head against this a while back, the ECU uses a factor of 1.22 in the pump voltage map, so if you have anything above "4098" in the map itself you're asking for more than 5V

On the idle afr in the smoke maps, below idle I have mine set to somewhere around 30mg/str, and the torque limit maps too, maybe the driver's wish map? Anyways, set it up to allow max fuel below idle and you'll never stall the thing.

It does let out a puff of smoke that I absolutely hate, but less embarrassing than having to turn the key all the way off to be able to crank it again while the lady behind you with no knowledge of a manual transmission thinks you're maliciously keeping her from progressing through the intersection and voices this with the horn.

your mention of 10ms data points intrigues me, are you running a piggyback datalogger? all the vag-com logging I've done has a pitifully slow resolution nowhere near that.
Nope, I have logs to prove it. Driving the car without the Torque Limiter adjustments proves it. I modified the pump too, then the voltage map, to push the QA collar much more down the shaft. I can trigger a WFC with as little as 4 V from the QA depending on the RPM. I'm aware of the 0.00012212 factor that is applied to the map, which I actually have scaled to be mostly inside the pump voltage min & max that's measured on startup.

Though that is certainly one way to do that, I opted for a slightly different approach:

Stock:


Modified:


I modified the Driver's Wish map to be a logarithmic curve that's linearly interpolated (blended) to a sigmoid/logistical curve by 1500 RPM with it slightly tapering off up to 5355 RPM. I adjusted the percentage points to be more uniformly distributed too. The pedal behavior is perfect for this unless the smoke map cuts just a little too much fuel and I come close to a stall. I have only stalled it once, because of an aggressive AFR, after I did that change. I can post up the values if you want to try the map via EDCSuite. This modification also allows a little lift off of the pedal without a drastic drop off of fuel due to things like railroad track humps and removed the dead portion of the beginning of pedal movement at higher RPM.

The other datalogging I was talking about has nothing to do with automotive applications. Here is Part 1 of that number crunching. Savitzky-Golay filtering is wonderful, for the record.

As far as tuning the voltage map, are you referencing group 16 "I think" that shows min and max pump voltages? There is no benefit to requesting more than the max value displayed there. Maybe msa15 doesn't have that measuring block tho.
The MSA15 does have that measuring block, which sits at 0.8 V & 4.7 V after I modified the pump, plus/minus 20-40 mV. I have a limitation of needing to be under 4.00 V in the 3250-3700 RPM range and under 4.25 V from 4000-4500 RPM range, depending on gear, depending on load. The voltages are computed when the engine starts up and the QA does a sweep while the glow plugs trigger. I've recorded this in slow motion as a part of diagnosis of faulty QA testing.
 

Digital Corpus

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Mar 14, 2008
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Jeremy, aka kooyajerms stopped by so I can drive his grocery getter. It's been a few years since we've test drove the others' B4's. His is still running strong and the test drive gave me some food for thought regarding how responsive his is vs mine.
 

Digital Corpus

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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I need to do some additional mathematic extrapolation since I measured the following profile about 1.7 mm inside the outer radius of the cam plate, but this is close enough to start with. Once I do that bit, I'll post it up in the thread that had these before and correct this graph. Anyhow, here is the profile of the DE643 camplate with the RAW data in blue and cosine error correction, that is the actual profile, in red:

Click to embiggen:


I have high confidence in this profile, but I know it is not 100% accurate. I used a 10" steel degree wheel, to ring magnets to hold onto the camplate and 30205 tapered ring bearing. An inexpensive 0.001 mm digital dial indicator was used for measurement and was fitted to a knock off arm. I took instantaneous readings at each degree mark and then also rapped the table with a poly-hammer 5 times while recording those results. The impacts were are enough to register on the indicator.

Then the averages of each degree's 5 hits were taken, aligned per degree with each other, and then a linear offset and slope correction were applied. This correction was an average of the pre- and proceeding 5 degrees of flat cam plate profile to remove any tilt that was noticed. Then the profiles of each of the 4 lobes were averaged together. I give my degree measurement accuracy to +/- 0.2mm on the wheel which works out to ~+/- 0.1°.

For cosine error correction, I need to know a few things. The diameter of the camplate profile region of 54.23 mm in diameter, the dial indicator has a 2.5 mm ball for it contact surface, and the contact point was about 1.7 mm in from the outer perimeter of the cam plate profile, and finally the angle of contact.

The "difficult" measurement is the angle of contact. The displacement height of the camplate is effectively averaged 20 times on each degree with a 0.1° jitter applied through human error during measurement. Using a bessel spline function to interpolate between degrees, the slope for each degree integer was regarded close enough to the slope between 0.1° before and 0.1° after said degree integer. Apply this offset from a 2.5 mm ball to the effective radius I swept to figure out what the actual degrees were that I measured at.

Finally, then, I used bessel spline interpolation again to output the displacement at each integer degree and plotted them before and after in blue and red respectively. This allowed for an effective maximum correction of -0.130 mm at 14° on the attacking slope and -0.047 mm on the retreating slope.

Again, when I work out the math for translating the profile from 1.7 mm in from the profile edge to that of the profile edge, I'll update my post(s). For the record, measuring the entire cam plate took ~3x longer than the math and Excel work. I will be doing the profiles for 2 other cam plate when time permits and if anyone wants to send me some they don't want, hit me up.
 

Digital Corpus

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Mar 14, 2008
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I need to look over things a little closer too. I'm not sure if it is propagated error, but the slope at 16° is less than both 15° & 17° which could indicate a wear spot. The is a similar oddity between 40° and 46° and that one is strong enough to see in the graph. It could also be a wear spot from the rollers slightly bouncing.

FYI, displacement tops out at 3.147 mm, which could have been 3.15 mm from the factory *shrug*. The greatest attack slope is 0.221 mm/° and -0.135 mm/° on the retreating slope, fwiw.

I do have a cam plate that is trashed. Figuring out what common steel, is close enough to it in composition and hardness would be great; albeit a pipe dream. Cause then if you have a profile and it's indexed (haven't gotten there just yet) to TDC, you could have a custom plate made. Again, pipe dream.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
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Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
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Only the B4V left
I have to say, I am impressed both at your level of knowledge and at your diagnosis/experimentation with these engines. While I am learning a lot, even more is over my head since I’m just a water guy with a civil engineering background.

Keep up the great work!
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Thank you, though most of what I've learned of the B4 is from your knowledge base that you've put here on the forums.

Remember, I'm a photographer. I just never shied away from math and science, actually those two came first, and I've always pursued a point of curiosity I've had and love learning.
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I'm 95% certain that I've found my WFC (warp field collapse) issue. I was trying to flow more air than the MAF could meter. Not in the explicit "1275 mg/str", but in totality of 460 kg/hr. I put the nitty gritty details here. Having the results within 1 or 2 % of previously calculated math leads me to believe this is the cause vs fueling variations with deltas of up to 1 V in the pump.

This basically means that I move to a larger MAF housing after converting to a MK IV MAF, and/or converting to a MAP-based tune. Basically I need ~60% more flow over stock if I wanted to meter 26 lbs/min at redline.

This was made possible by custom measuring blocks :). I do want to do a write up, but methinks not many people will care. Then again, why else am I writing this?

Anyhow, I cannot directly test the issue right now. I'm relatively confident that I just popped another head gasket. I have a spare one on hand, but the timing is not good right now since there is a separate engine on the hoist. I favor the hypothesis of the non-decked block as being the cause. I definitely do not have the time or resources to do another pull right now. I might cheat and go ghetto with some solder and a blowtorch, honestly...
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Aug 8, 2004
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Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Wow - Cool that you're getting to the bottom of this, bummer about the head gasket though.

I'd be interested in a custom measuring blocks write up and I appreciate all the documentation/sharing that you're doing.
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
It’ll be on the software end and I’ll show MSA15.5 and some parallels to the EDC15 family. I will only show EDC15VP+, which I think is the designation, or whatever is standard in the ‘02 ALH Jetta.

I still need to reverse engineer the MSA15 hardware cause I know that it supports EGT/NOX probes. Just need to figure out how.
 

arazvan2002

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Location
Romania
TDI
Audi A4 B6 1.9TDI AVF quattro
Wow - Cool that you're getting to the bottom of this, bummer about the head gasket though.

I'd be interested in a custom measuring blocks write up and I appreciate all the documentation/sharing that you're doing.
You can find all the details you need about this on EcuConnections.com forum.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
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Ontario, California
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'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I'm getting 0.83 mm as my greatest piston protrusion. My mean is about 0.73 mm excluding that one high side. Should I stick a 1-hole head gasket on and call it a day?
I'll be re-checking this today or tomorrow with more precise dial gauge.

Current plan of attack is to lap the block with oil and a diamond plate. I'll use piston projection on 6 points of each piston to check how even the surface is. From there I'll progressively sand/lap the surface to be smoother and I'll be using a 6"x3"x0.5" block of steel with a 0.0125" per foot flatness for that cleanup. If I can lower the deck to compensate for low piston projection and restore compression, cool. I have the tools and the patience and I have the time to spend a couple of days on it and it'll take more time than that to tend to the other engine on the hoist.

This is the last photo of my block from about 5 years ago:
Click to embiggen:
 

JFettig

Vendor
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Aug 18, 2010
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Blaine, MN
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B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
I'll be re-checking this today or tomorrow with more precise dial gauge.
Current plan of attack is to lap the block with oil and a diamond plate. I'll use piston projection on 6 points of each piston to check how even the surface is.
Take your block to a machine shop and get it decked.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Hi DC.
IMHO, hand lapping is only for removing minor irregularities, not altering dimensions.
It seems like one of your rods is a tenth long, though.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
FIRST - Measure piston protrusion on the axis of the wristpin only - don't waste time with any other locations as the piston rock in the bore will mess up all your measurements (been there, done that). A depth micrometer is really the best tool to do this so you can bridge the gap in the valve reliefs and reach down to the deck of the block.

If after doing this, you decide that the block is too tall - do what JFettig said and get it decked at a machine shop. You will be there forever with a diamond plate and not get what you want (a flat deck) You'll be time and $$ ahead plus will end up with the proper surface finish for the head gasket to seal.
 
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