Air conditioning rant and a few questions

KLXD said:

Three bucks per can for refrigerant????

The best I can find it here in Kal it $12 plus $10 deposit per can. Also there's a time limit on the deposit so if you use a half can you either loose the deposit or the product. I'm tempted to vent it just for spite, then return the can.

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$3 per can, and that $3 is the entire charge. Read back; I'm now experimenting with an alternate HC. If I were still using the recommended 134a, I'd have spent a pretty penny troubleshooting my current issue. I need to open the system again, too.

Earlier this year, I bought 6 cans of Prestone R-134a, for $50 shipped. My local Walmart sells Interdynamics R-134a for $10 per can. I found a local outlet store that was selling Johnsen's R-134a for $6 per can.... I grabbed a few of those. All of the above had no dye, leak sealers or cooling boosters.

In NJ, there's no can rental. I own the valve tap, so anything that I don't use remains mine.

There's plenty of name brand 134a on Ebay... I'm guessing they won't ship to you? I've read some stuff about low grade Weitron 134a coming out of China, so that's a brand I would steer clear of.

I've found a few Ebay sellers that claim to have OEM Sanden compressors; I've contacted them asking where those compressors are made.

I ordered a new TXV last night. It'll be a cheap and easy troubleshooting step. I also have a spare condenser, so I may flush it and install it. There's always the chance that fragmented metal is still in the system and hanging the TXV open. I'm going to run a magnet through the flush solvent that I used, to see if there's any chips, dust, etc. in there.

-Todd

TonyJetta said:

AMA in Phoenix, right?

Tony

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Right. They didn't give me any problem about the warranty.

I went with them because they admitted it was from China. Polar Bear said theirs was "Pacific Rim".

Somehow I missed that you were running propane.

I guess I don't feel so bad now. Except about the #^$*&@$%*^% deposit.

Maybe I should be glad I can get it here at all.

KLXD said:

Right. They didn't give me any problem about the warranty.

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Be careful there. I had issues with them on the first AC system. That was the clutch they replaced under warranty: Actually pulled the compressor, evac & recharge. I was pleased at the time. 8 months later, they would not stand behind their work, when the pulley cut the clutch wire. Kept telling me 'it's out of warranty', when it wasn't even 12 months after they did the work.

Go figure...

Tony

KLXD said:

Right. They didn't give me any problem about he warranty

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I went through their warranty terms. It's probably the only place I've seen that didn't require the work to be done by an authorized shop.

KLXD said:

I guess I don't feel so bad now. Except about the #^$*&@$%*^% deposit

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I don't understand that part. Are you required to buy the entire unused can or do they charge you by the amount that you use?

TonyJetta said:

8 months later, they would not stand behind their work, when the pulley cut the clutch wire. Kept telling me 'it's out of warranty', when it wasn't even 12 months after they did the work.

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Did they do the work? Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons that I pay for everything with a credit card. If an issue like this comes up, let the credit card company deal with it.

-Todd

One of the eBay companies got back to me. Their Sanden is made in China, but comes with a 1 year warranty if I buy a drier. Not sure about the warranty terms.

-Todd

ToddA1 said:

Did they do the work? Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons that I pay for everything with a credit card. If an issue like this comes up, let the credit card company deal with it.

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I did the original install, then they did all the work to replace the clutch coil.

Tony

ToddA1 said:

I don't understand that part. Are you required to buy the entire unused can or do they charge you by the amount that you use?
-Todd

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It's just a normal new (14 oz??) can. You pay the deposit and get it back when you return it. Doesn't matter how much you used so it doesn't pay to keep the can unless it's nearly full. I'll probably stock up if I ever go to AZ. I'll have to look at ebay and Amazon. Maybe they'll ship it here.

My Sanden was made in Japan. At least that's what the box said. You sure that's the actual brand and not just the configuration.

I suppose if it has their name on it they are maintaining the quality. Boeing makes wings in China and we haven't seen a failure yet.

KLXD said:

I'll probably stock up if I ever go to AZ.

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You really only have to get across the state line: Quartzite, needles, parker, etc.

Tony

I ran a strong magnet through the old solvent and it came out with what looked like gray grease on it. If that's pulverized metal, it's so fine that that I can't feel any abrasiveness between my fingers.

I stopped by Autozone this morning and ordered a high side inline filter (MT-3200). Less than $45 out the door and it'll be in later tonight. I'm hoping to get it mounted this weekend with the new TXV and will repeat the previous 2 weekends.

if this doesn't fix the issue, I'll be looking for a new compressor.

-Todd

I called a shop asking some questions. Basically, he was kind of stumped but he doesn't think it's my compressor. His reasoning is that the compressor is just a pump and it wouldnt have an intermittent issue, especially if it can reach normal high side pressure. I'm hoping to believe him.

He mentioned the condenser could have some type of restriction and I could have abnormal high side pressure that I'm not seeing due to the location of the service port. This would be if the condenser was parallel flow.

My 225 high side pressure could actually be 300 if I were taking the reading before the condenser. It makes sence, but I don't think we have parallel flow condensers on these cars.... do we? Standard cores are pretty easy to flush, according to him.

I was doing some more research and I stumbled upon this...

http://www.manexcorp.com/images/Bus_Guage_TS.pdf




I don't think it's the capillary tube due to the fact that the car cools. Even so, I won't be able to do the tests due to the location of the evaporator. I'm hoping this will be coming to an end.

-Todd

Do you have a capillary tube? The '98 Jetta doesn't.

Since these pumps are variable displacement, and admittedly not fully understanding how they work yet, I can see where their function could be intermittent.

KLXD said:

Do you have a capillary tube? The '98 Jetta doesn't.

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Honestly, I'm not 100% sure. I figure something needs to be able to sense the cooling, but in this case it may be the control valve or something in the TXV that does everything.

I haven't looked at the car in a few days, but I'm thinking of adding the filter on the low side. My reasoning being that the drier is after the condenser. The drier would trap any garbage from the condenser. If there's anything stuck in the evaporator, the inline filter would trap it, on the way back to the compressor.

I verified that it would be fine to do, although the filter is designated as a high side filter. I think Ford used to put filters on the low side, and GM later decided that they would be better served on the high side since most compressors have screens at the suction port.

-Todd

I went to pull the TXV tonight and hooked up the gauge manifold set, first.

Readings were 10/150; I was expecting to see somewhat equal static pressure. I don't think I'm low on refrigerant, being that the system held perfect vacuum overnight. I'm thinking something in the system is wrong.

I pull the TXV and swab all ports with Q-tips. No dirt at all, just oil. I blow through the high side port and confirm the same with the new replacement part. Hopefully, this part just likes to act up. The AC was blowing ice cold today and did the random quitting thing.

I start pulling vacuum and disconnect the hose from the low side quick connect. Putting my finger over the nipple, I'm feeling vacuum, so there's no restrictions in the system. Going to pull vacuum for another hour and recharge tomorrow. It'll be around 90° tomorrow, so I want this working.

-Todd

Charged the system and now no cooling whatsoever. Pressures were 50/175, but what I noticed was that I was able to get them to fluctuate by turning the system on and off. Getting the low side to 30, I could only get the high side to go to 150. I was getting a bunch of different pressures, and the static pressure never balanced out. Low side service valve's rubber sealing cover blew out, too.... great.

Unless the new TXV is bad, I'm now thinking this compressor is just worn out. I'll be getting another compressor and will likely be going back to 134a. Propane was a cheap experiment; less than $10 for 4 charges. I liked the ice cold air, but I'm curious what 134a can do with a new compressor.

I'm still waiting on a few replies from eBay sellers who have new Sanden compressors. Buyautoparts has a very easy to follow warranty that doesnt mention shop installation. When I asked them twice about needing a shop to do the work, they never replied. Their sister site is discountac.com and reading their warranty terms, an authorized shop invoice is required. They did mention that their compressor is made in China.

Worse comes to worse, I'll just get it from boraparts. I'd rather have a Japanese compressor.

-Todd

I've been using my AC nearly every day. Ranging from 80F up to 105F, and consistently get 55F out the vents with the fan on high speed, and <45F on low speed.

I wish I had bough this system from boraparts.com 2 years ago. However, IIRC, the drier and TXV are not listed on Aaron's site. I would call to order.

Tony

ToddA1 said:

I don't think we have parallel flow condensers on these cars.... do we?

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Since I'm looking at a new compressor, I had to get this part figured out. If we have parallel flow, I was just going to order a new one. I wasn't really sure what I was looking for, then I found this:
http://www.ackits.com/parallel/condenser1.jpg

Remembering that I had an extra rad/condenser assembly in the shed, I went to hunt it down. It turns out my B4 Passat has a serpentine condenser and these are flushable. Serpentine is better than tube and fin/6mm piccolo, but not as good as parallel flow. It looks like the addition of end tanks would make a serpentine a parallel flow.

TonyJetta said:

I wish I had bough this system from boraparts.com 2 years ago. However, IIRC, the drier and TXV are not listed on Aaron's site. I would call to order.

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I sent him an e-mail about his warranty terms. I also called Autozone and inquired about their compressors, when I called about another service port.

A new compressor would come with a lifetime warranty, and that would be an in-store exchange, not a manufacturer exchange. A drier and TXV would need to be purchased, but not necessarily from them. I'd just need to keep my receipt from whomever I got it from. Flushing would be necessary, but a receipt for rental of their flush kit would suffice. A shop does not need to do the work.

I'm sure that's a China compressor, but now I'm on the fence. I'd much rather have a local warranty; boraparts is across the country. I didn't even ask if they can get Japanese Sandens. If I can get them to accept a competitor coupon, that's another $50 off.

-Todd

A couple years ago I went with a local auto parts supplier for my compressor so that I could easily deal with a warranty issue in person if I had to. I bought from Advance Auto. I'm not sure if this is the best strategy but it is what I decided upon at the time.

Paul, that's kinda cryptic. Did it not work out?

Anyhow, I went into Autozone yesterday to verify the warranty terms. Warranty would be 2 years but I'd need to buy the drier, TXV, oil, and refrigerant from them. Total would have been about $465 + tax, so about $500. Their compressor is an Everco by 4 Seasons.

Before I went in, I asked on the phone if they'd accept competitor coupons. The reply was "yes", but I forgot to verify when I was in the store. That's potentially $50 off.

Buyautoparts got back to me and told me that shop labor wasn't required, but recommended.

Boraparts gave me a very vague response of 1 year, unlimited mileage warranty. The warranty would be through them, not the manufacturer. I sent them a reply asking for a copy of the terms, but never heard back. I sent a follow up e-mail.

Something that I never thought about was if I pay with a credit card, the warranty terms are doubled for up to a year. That would add 1 year to any compressor that I bought.

-Todd

ToddA1 said:

Paul, that's kinda cryptic. Did it not work out?

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Yeah...that was cryptic. My AC is currently nonfunctional from a slow leak that developed late last year. I have been too occupied to investigate and repair. But, the compressor has been working great. It is likely an o-ring since I replaced everything else with new parts at the same time and did a flush and vacuum prior to recharging.

I hedged a bit in my earlier post since the compressor is a Four Seasons and likely made in China. So, I was vaguely referring to the uncertainty of how the compressor will hold out in the future. But, so far so good. It is past warranty at this point but I do feel that I had the advantage of having a local supplier to deal with in person if I had to...at least for the year it was on warranty.

I'll probably grab a can of refrigerant and get it running then start looking for the leak...it is getting warm and time to have some AC!

Good luck with your AC.

I suppose I'd feel better about a Chinese pump if it was a name brand like Four Seasons.

The one I got said AC compressor on the box. No brand.

Yeah, I feel the same. FWIW, 4 Seasons may just rebrand some other no name compressor.

A Chinese Sanden from Ebay may not be terrible. I have a call in about a Denso unit.

-Todd

I personally had bad luck with the Autozone compressor-but it was their cheapest reman version with a whopping three month warranty......

Eventually went with a Japanese made Denso-as documented in another thread.....

I am now of the opinion that it is definitely not worth it to scrimp on the compressor....because you end up replacing them (did myself-but still a PITA)....and spending for another evac/charge anyway......that is you don't end up saving anything in the long run-of course YMMV......

I called Advance Auto, this morning and had one of their reps doing some research on the 471-7000 for me. He caled Denso and was told that this is a Japanese compressor.

Price was $424, but he gave me a $85 discount. Normally, it's a 15% discount that tops out at $50. Price with tax shipped to my door is $362.73. In the case that it arrives and is Chinese, it can be returned at any retail store.

Replacement of drier is required for the 1 year warranty, but drier does not need to be purchased from them. Shop labor is not required.

Boraparts got back to me this afternoon about their warranty terms. 1 year, unlimited warranty, and they didn't mention frier or any other parts required. Shop labor is not required.

-Todd

Got back into it with a mixture of good and bad.

Compressor came in Friday and it's made in Japan. Started tearing everything out late Saturday afternoon. I had to go back to Autozone due to a defective flush kit. Flushed and back flushed everything twice. Got a face full of flush, so I called it quits around 10pm.

Today, I added the filter kit in the high side line just behind the fuel filter. Of course the kit is made for SAE lines, not metric. I had to modify the line ends a bit and open up the clamping ferrules. Nyloged the sealing barrels and installed all new o-rings on everything. Filled the compressor with 4.5oz. of DEC PAG 46. Rotated the hub and noticed a ton more resistance than my old compressor had. Guess that shows how worn out my compressor actually was.

Pulled vacuum for about 1.5 hours and let it sit for an hour. I decide to charge the system again with propane, just to make sure..... Somehow the low side connector must not have been on all the way; it popped off mid charge and I lost some propane before I closed the valve. No big deal.

I go in the car and the vents are blowing cold. A couple minutes later, one of the line ends comes out of the newly installed filter, showering my firewall and windshield with propane and oil. I guess I shouldn't have Nyloged the hard lines where they went into the sealing barrels; it probably acted as a lube.

Took the filter apart, recleaned it, reinstalled it, added 2 oz of oil and started pulling vacuum again. I ended up washing the car, too.

I guess I'll charge it tomorrow. That filter has me nervous; I've been thinking of a way to brace it so it cant blow apart again. I have an extra high side line in the shed, just I case it doesn't work out.

-Todd

You sure the pump didn't come already filled with oil or did you drain and refill it?

I drained and refilled.

-Todd

Charged it when I got home. Ambient temperature was 78°; I decided to use Duracool's chart and used 15.3 oz of propane instead of the entire 16.4 oz canister. I was seeing around 55° at the vents at idle (max & rec.). 2,000 rpm was at 42° and falling. I stopped there and checked the gauges.

Duracool said the low side should be normal and the high side should be about 20-30% lower than normal. Everything I've read about straight BBQ grade propane said I'd be higher, but never really saw conclusive numbers. I was seeing 35/250 at idle and 40/275 at 2,000 rpm.

I'm going to recheck the pressures when the heat is in the 90°s. I think 45/250 is normal for 134a on a 95° day.

7 weeks of troubleshooting and I'm finally(?) done! I'm going to need some time behind the wheel to verify everything is good, but I have no reason to think otherwise.

-Todd

Today, I took the car out and the ac stopped working. Pulled over and opened the hood; the compressor was still running. Went home hooked the gauges up and saw the pressures I mentioned earlier. Went back in the car and the vents were blowing at 45°.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of it, so I disconnected everything, but before doing so, I bled a little propane out to lower the high side a bit. Air was still blowing cold, so I went back out. 1 mile from my house, the ac quits again and the compressor is still running. Turn around again, and added 2 ounces of propane. The air never blew cold again, and the pressures went back to square one.

Bled everything out vacuumed for 45 minutes and recharged with 41 oz of 134a. I saw 55° on 4 and recirculate with a 72° ambient temperature. Took it out and only saw 48° on speed 2. Not thrilled as it was 10° colder at idle on propane. I saw 21° on speed 2 on Friday (, a 80° day). The ac quit when I saw that; I figured the evaporator froze.

I was considering adding another oz or two of refrigerant. The charge and test hoses are 6' long; I figure they hold a bit of refrigerant that never made its way into the system.

Here's a question... Are others seeing their pressures fluctuate? I'm noticing the low side dropping and rising from 22-30psi. The high side was following suit going from around 200-210. It's a continual cycle; I'm guessing this is a trait of the control valve? I don't recall this happening with propane.

-Todd

22-30psi on the low side, is a little low, but not bad.

200-210psi on the hi side seems a little low.

On an 85F day, mine gave 200-245. i.e. as the cooling fans switched to high, the pressure would drop from 245 down to 200-205. As the fans switched to low speed, the pressure would rise to 245. This would oscillate with a period of about every 3 minutes. 1.5 minutes the fans would be on high: 1.5 minutes the fans would be on low.

Tony