TIming belt break while moving, '98 TDi w/240K plus miles

Hi All,
The timing belt went on my '98 Jetta tdi (about 242K miles), at low speed and low rpm. It had been inspected just recently by a mechanic and looked fine. He was driving when the belt went. My question is:
what does anyone think about using a re-manufactured head if we replace it?
what about sources for parts like that?
He's going to also do head gasket, head, new head bolts and lifters.
Any advice on parts sourcing or the work is greatly appreciated.
Thanks very much!
david

Unfortunately, as you have found out, the timing belt doesn't give any warning of impending failure. That is why it is important to adhere to the recommended change interval.

The best thing to do is send the head to member Franko6. He can be contacted here: FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net. When it comes back it will be better than new, and all the necessary parts to install it will come in a kit.

Best of luck and hoping for a happy ending

Paul

Is this mechanic known for having familiarity with TDIs? (We've heard of one in Westhampton...)

Many people send their cylinder heads to user Franko6 in Lockwood MO for reconditioning... I'm sure there are machine shops that are closer, but... he has a reputation as a magician with these engines... (and he can supplly all the needed parts... ) http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=31923

Good luck,

Yuri

dyvyd said:

Hi All,
The timing belt went on my '98 Jetta tdi (about 242K miles), at low speed and low rpm. It had been inspected just recently by a mechanic and looked fine. He was driving when the belt went.

Click to expand...

What are the odds? Were you in the car when this happened?

I guess I've passed the cynicism event horizon as my first thought when reading this was "guess his business is slow so he figured he'd put a cylinder head/engine job in the pipeline."

FRANK 06 is the man. I did a Camshaft and lifters as well as Complete Timing Belt replacement and he supplied everything including Oil and antifreze and all the KNOWHOW you will need. You must talk to him before you proceed.

You're near Justin Carven at Greasecar, Darryl Beck at Evergreen Motors, and Mike McCann (independent) in Westhampton. Any one of them can help you out. And you can have the head repaired, or put on a new one (which we happen to have in stock, shameless plug).

If the car was moving at all the damage can be significant. I'd plan on a head rebuild or replacement. Sorry for the trouble.

Thanks all for your comments & suggestions. i'll have to contact Frank06 though i'm in western Mass. so Missouri is a bit of shipping time both ways, but i looked at ID Parts' pricing for new parts and it's a bunch of money if i buy a new head so the shipping time may be worth it. This mechanic has worked on quite a few TDIs, doesn't specialize in them and he's worked on a LOT of VWs, parted together 2 Passat TDIs to one good car. i've been happy with all the work he's done for me and--though i completely understand Mogbro's cynicism though i wasn't in the car when it happened--he's definitely not one to sell work that's not needed. He's just done a bunch of rust repair & paint work for me & he hasn't been hurting for work to say the least. i'm going to touch base with Frank06 for sure though, try to put my mechanic in touch with him directly..
Thanks again everyone, i'll let you know how it goes.
david

Any mechanic that claims he can tell the condition of a timing belt by looking at it doesn't know what they are talking about.

A timing belt rarely fails. What usually fails is the tensioner, water pump, if it is timing belt driven, or a roller.

The belt out lasts the tensioners/roller? I would not have thought so...many change the belt but skip the tensioner, or every other time...

Does pretty much every "failed" belt inspection reveal a broken or seized tensioner?

Not necessarily, but something will have failed. Water pumps, tensioners, idler pulley bearings, excess vibrations/stuff from alternator failures or serpentine belt tensioner failures have all had a hand in timing belt failures.

Ok, so a clarification. When the belt was inspected (about a week or so before it failed) it was not loose and showed no signs of wear. He thought we should probably do it soon (foolishly i hadn't logged the mileage last time he did it) but given what he saw when he checked it, he was surprised that it went.
i realize damage can be extensive with a running, moving belt failure. i'm waiting to hear what he finds when he gets it apart.

Sent an inquiry to Frank06, guess i'll have to bite the bullet & ship the heads to him assuming he's not overbooked. i'm preparing myself for the worst case. Will post updates as appropriate. i really appreciate the forums, tremendous resource.
Thanks. david

The belt cannot be inspected per se. Even a well used one usually looks very good. Replace by time or mileage, which ever comes first. If it can't be verified by when it was done and by whom and what parts were replaced, it should be redone.

In chemistry class back in the day I learned the hard way that hot glass looks exactly the same as cold glass.

Same too for most timing belts... they generally look great, right up to the second when they are not so great.

dyvyd said:

He thought we should probably do it soon (foolishly i hadn't logged the mileage last time he did it) but given what he saw when he checked it, he was surprised that it went.

Click to expand...

My mechanic has records of every timing belt change on every one of my cars he's serviced. Yours should, too.

TB neglect ....

Ol'Rattler said:

Any mechanic that claims he can tell the condition of a timing belt by looking at it doesn't know what they are talking about.

A timing belt rarely fails. What usually fails is the tensioner, water pump, if it is timing belt driven, or a roller.

Click to expand...

I agree with Ol'Rattler 100%.

And, I question why/how come the TB failed while the "mechanic" was test driving the car. Why was he test driving? Were you (OP) in the car with him? Was the guy red-lineing the engine to see if the TB was okay? Wow?

In the early days (over 30 years ago), I saw OE TBs with 120 to 130k miles on them and still going (yeah, it's sort of an apples and oranges comparision). But, with TDIs, I've seen several that had well over 100k miles on them....... saw one 60k belt with 104k miles it and several in between those numbers, still going. Anything beyond the limits of the TB is total neglect by the owner!

As suggested, find a guru to repair the engine.

Andy Bees & Ol'Rattler--fyi, he wasn't actually "test driving" the car & no i wasn't in the car. He'd just finished replacing the rear bumper, repairing rust & doing some floorboard repair from rot (i live in Western Mass.) and repainting as necessary & was driving the car to his house from the shop he was using (he's in the process of moving shop). We were getting ready to swap cars back--he's let me use his '94 Golf gasser while he had my car to do the body and paint work. i've known the guy for years and his dad was my previous mechanic. They are not the kind of people who screw around with you. i'm not looking to flame him or blame him. i was just looking for info and advice, want to get my TDI back on the road again.
The belt failure is my fault if anyone's, not sure how many miles since the belt was done, i blew recording it. It's probably not 100K but could be as much as 75 or 85K miles since it was done. The last few years have just been insane with a LOT of other things going on with work & family.

Powder Hound said:

Not necessarily, but something will have failed. Water pumps, tensioners, idler pulley bearings, excess vibrations/stuff from alternator failures or serpentine belt tensioner failures have all had a hand in timing belt failures.

Click to expand...

I can absolutely reinforce this from another notorious example. We have owned SAAB for 40 years, the last three 9-5s. The engine in these cars is known for eating serpentine belts, but the age of the belt has little to do with it. It's the idler pulley, or the pulley mounting bracket, or one of the pulleys at the top of the engine that fails. The weak link is generally not the belt, which is why replacing it at the specified interval (60K) may be futile. When replacing a belt, a thorough going-over of everything in the belt path is necessary.

Buy the kit and replace everything in the belt path.

Guilty as charged on the neglect. If it's anyone's fault, it's mine. i blew recording mileage last time it was done--less than 100K miles ago but could be as much as 75 or 80k miles ago. The last few years have been a bit of 'life in the oncoming lane' between chaos at work and stuff going on in the extended family, &c. Just how it is sometimes and something invariably--unfortunately in this case the timing belt--falls through the cracks. i know i'm going to pay for it but not much i can do about it now.

He wasn't 'test driving' the car per se & no, i wasn't in the car--he had just finished up taking care of a variety of rust & rot, some floorboard repair on one side (i live in wester New England, home of winter slop the last few years, which means lots & lots of road salt), replacing and repainting rear bumper and repainting as needed with the rust work. He's in the process of moving shops & did most of the work in someone else's shop & was driving it back home to arrange to swap cars back--he's let me use his car while he worked on mine.

i have known him for years, his dad was my mechanic before him and they are honest people & good mechanics. He's not the kind to push un-needed work nor is he one to ride around redlining a customer's car. i didn't post to flame him or get him flamed, just looking for the usual wealth of information & advice here on the forums.

Thanks.
david

A while ago, I drove customer's Jetta TDI A5 10m's and the air conditioner's compressor seized and the engine did not want to turn. I thought the timing belt that I replaced, broke. It happens.

Yeah, it happens. First year I was in business for myself, I was doing some transmission work on an older Super Duty. Reached through the window and turned the key, started up and knocked like crazy. Jumped in and shut it off. Started looking around and noticed green dye pouring onto the ground out of the A/C compressor. Thought to myself "what the hell, did the compressor just explode?". Took the belt off and started it again. Still knocking. Turns out it threw a connecting rod through the side of the block and broke the A/C compressor in the process. That was interesting phone call to the customer. Also, at least five times since I started wrenching, I've had older Chevy trucks electric fuel pumps decide to quit while they were in the shop for some completely unrelated repair. Hate having to call someone and tell them that their oil change just turned into a $750 deal. With some vehicles, due to neglect, age, rust, etc, it's a race to get the vehicle out of the shop before it breaks down again. Most honest mechanics will be too busy with actual problems to go out of the way to create new ones.

It's good to know the details.

A 100k mile belt kit containing quality parts, will go beyond the miles and years at least 10%. Not knowing when it was changed last sort of indicates you may not know if the procedure including everything or not.

So, as indicated, the culprit may have been a roller/idler, the tensioner or water pump ..... heck, a critter may have crawled in there and got sucked into the TB, causing it to jump teeth/break, etc.....saw that happen once!

And, yes, I have heard of and seen strange things happen at the auto repair shop that puts the owner/mechanic in a *ell of a position to provide an explanation!

AndyBees said:

A 100k mile belt kit containing quality parts, will go beyond the miles and years at least 10%.

Click to expand...

This model only has 60,000-mile-rated timing belt systems...

Yuri

Thanks for the comforting tales . . . . i know that *#it happens, just wasn't planning on it. Waiting to hear from Frank06 and also found a place in NJ that does same kid of parts hunts that 1-800VW Parts does & he's looking for a viable used head set up for me. We'll see what gives. If it's feasible--from all you all have said--i'd like to send the head to Frank06. We'll see what happens. As i told my brother tonight, i know what i'm getting for Christmas . . . a valve job and cylinder heads one way or another. C'est la vie. Could always be worse.
Thanks again. i always learn something here but the spirit of the exchange is what really makes it, all the know-how and experience notwithstanding.
david

Hey Folks, just want to say thanks again. Just talked to Frank06 & i'm either buying a head set up outright then sending mine back for core trade or having him repair mine. Waiting to get everything off the car to decide. The more i read trolling through related and old threads, the more i became convinced that he is absolutely the one to deal with. Just want to get it going now.
Happy holidays to all and thanks again!
dyvyd

dyvyd said:

Hey Folks, just want to say thanks again. Just talked to Frank06 & i'm either buying a head set up outright then sending mine back for core trade or having him repair mine. Waiting to get everything off the car to decide. The more i read trolling through related and old threads, the more i became convinced that he is absolutely the one to deal with. Just want to get it going now.
Happy holidays to all and thanks again!
dyvyd

Click to expand...

Good decision. I've been in Frank's workshop and seen the professional equipment he uses and the finished products. I'm sure there are other shops that produce rebuilt heads every bit as fine as Frank's, but no one is better.

The worse thing anyone can do is buy from an unreliable shop based on saving $100-200 or so. They are asking for trouble and it can get much more expensive in the long run.

FWIW, I installed one of Frank's heads 80k miles ago, and haven't looked back! Top notch customer service, and you won't find better people to deal with.

Tony