TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

theFATman

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Mar 13, 2004
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mke
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Jetta GLS, 2000, white
as far as the fuel in the oil goes.. is that just from blow-by or what do you think? Maybe i could lower my IQ a tiny bit as long as there was no shuddering and see what happens next time?
 

SUNRG

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Oct 19, 2003
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Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
could be worn or dirty nozzles. you could try a couple doses of the Motul Diesel System Clean - LINK

and/or a LM Diesel Purge. i recommend doing this just after you pull your next oil sample (assuming your using an oil sampling pump) and just before your change the oil.

if that doesn't clear it up there are other potential causes - but IMHO that's the "low hanging fruit".

cheers!
 

dhdenney

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Oct 23, 2005
Location
Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Here's my latest UOA for AFL. Fuel was 95% B20 use. I expected iron to be lower but maybe residual. Silicon was no surprise as I had the valve cover off. Probably got some dirt in there at that time.

 
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SUNRG

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Location
Roanoke, VA
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None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
IMHO - you've been returning significantly higher than average Fe wear since you started UOA tracking at 14k. if it were my TDI - i'd drain and refill with a VW approved 50700 or 50501 oil, do one short cleansing OCI of 2-3k as a rinse (IMHO no UOA necessary), then on to 10k+ OCIs using UOAs to confirm oil performance and engine health. Cheers!
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

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Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Yeah, 82 iron over 10K would prompt me to go with an approved oil. I've always used 505.01 or better in my PD and have shown no higher than 41 ppm for Iron, 6 ppm Aluminum, and 4 ppm Copper over 10K OCI. You're roughly double on those.
 

dhdenney

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Oct 23, 2005
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
I tend to agree. At my current rate of Fe, I would be at almost 89. At this point I feel like my Fe should be dropping significantly.
 

dhdenney

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Oct 23, 2005
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Kentucky
TDI
2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
BTW, should I use an engine flush such as Motul before switching oils? Or should I run the short 3K interval, then do a flush?
 

AndyH

Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
dhdenney said:
BTW, should I use an engine flush such as Motul before switching oils? Or should I run the short 3K interval, then do a flush?
There's no need to flush, as your engine is clean. If you plan to change oil brands, and the new oil company has a flush, and it would make you feel better, flush to 'neutralize' the last of the oil oil that will remain in the engine.
 

AndyH

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Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
A comment on comparing UOA reports...

UOA is a trending tool and is only valid for that specific engine. No two engines are identical, no two cars are identical, and no two drivers are identical.

UOA is a great diagnostic tool, but it is not a valid oil comparison tool. If it were, there'd be no need for ASTM tests or engine test stands.
 

AndyH

Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
TornadoRed said:
I have read somewhere that if oxidation plus sulfation equals 50 or greater, it's time for an oil change.

Okay, it was here: http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf

Given that you didn't get a TBN value, OXID + SULF may give you an approximate idea of the acidity of the oil. Yours is considered "excessive".
I think you mean that if either oxidation or nitration is over 50 it's time for a change?
 

TornadoRed

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2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
AndyH said:
I think you mean that if either oxidation or nitration is over 50 it's time for a change?
It does say that, doesn't it?

Oxidation, nitration, and sulfation are too often ignored. The lab results I get never include them.
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

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owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
AndyH said:
A comment on comparing UOA reports...

UOA is a trending tool and is only valid for that specific engine. No two engines are identical, no two cars are identical, and no two drivers are identical.

UOA is a great diagnostic tool, but it is not a valid oil comparison tool. If it were, there'd be no need for ASTM tests or engine test stands.
Point taken. I still think 80+ppm Fe for recommended OCI is a tad high (certainly not terrible), regardless of conditions.
 

dhdenney

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Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Right I am aware of variables between cars/engines and UOA in itself is not perfect. I just want to see if lower wear numbers are attainable for me.
 

dhdenney

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Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Long_Range said:
dhdenny;
Do you run this car a bit hard? Usually that's the case with high soot. I make 1% per 10K miles myself.
IMHO, I don't run it hard. But that's a subjective term. Perhaps I do run it hard. So ideally soot should be down around .5 after 10K? Maybe it's in my oil instead of my EGR. :)
 

dhdenney

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Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
AndyH said:
There's no need to flush, as your engine is clean. If you plan to change oil brands, and the new oil company has a flush, and it would make you feel better, flush to 'neutralize' the last of the oil oil that will remain in the engine.
Not so much for that purpose, just wanted to get some residuals out. I always use a Pela and next time I am going to use a bottom drain and Pela to suck out oil cooler/housing. I am not necessarily switching oil, I am out of everything (oil leak zapped the remaining qts I had) so I am gonna try LL3 for 10K and make a comparison for myself since I shouldn't necessarily compare UOAs with other users.
 

Long_Range

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Nov 1, 2004
Location
Arthur, IL , USA
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Jetta Sedan GL 2004
I see your last Millage was 46K.

You may want to run a Vag Com check on your MAF and other systems. Before your warranty runs out.
I put a new MAF on mine today. $125 for part , just a few minutes labor. It was 1,400 miles over the 50K warranty when the CEL came on.

Made a new car out of the thing. Heck I revved it up a dozen times trying to reproduce the sound I thought was my (new) EGR leaking. No funny sound and amazingly never filled the garage with smoke. With any luck I've left my 1% per 10K mile soot days behind me.

My last iron wear number checked was 29 with 44K on unit and 10K on oil. But I cheat. Run a bypass filter. Soot was .9 %. vis @ 100C was 12.56 on Elf DID.

If you compare wear numbers try to look for UAO with similar soot numbers. Then remember your wear rate may drop as you finish the 10K mile OCI.

What sticks in my mind is I could have recovered half the price of a Vag Com system by diagnosing my bad MAF before my warranty ran out. I'm 100% sure my MAF has been poor since the day I drove off the lot.
 

dhdenney

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Oct 23, 2005
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Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
I understand what you are saying about preempting the problem but with no light, I don't think I could do much in the warranty realm.
 

LVPAJetta

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Jun 26, 2003
Location
Northern, NJ
TDI
GSW, 2015, Silver, 6-spd
Miles on (thous)
Oil --9.4 --8.5 --10.9 --13.1 --10.0 --10.6 --9.5 --9.6
Eng -125 -116 --107 --96.3 --85.4 --73.4 --62.2 -51.8

Al ----2 -----4 ----5 -----4 -----4 ------4 -----6 -----5
Cr ----1 -----1 ----3 -----2 -----2 ------2 -----3 -----3
Fe ---26 ----21 ---46 ---20 ----21 ----21 ----25 ----23
Cu ---2 ------3 ----6 -----3 -----2 -----3 -----4 ------3
Pb ----3 -----1---- 3 -----2 -----1 -----1 ------1 -----1
Sn ----2 -----1 ----2 -----0 -----0----- 0------ 0 -----1
Mo ----1 -----2 ----1 -----1 -----2 -----2 ------2 -----2
Ni ----1----- 0----- 1 -----0 -----1----- 0 -----1 ------1
Mn ---0 -----0----- 1----- 1 -----1 -----0 -----0------ 1
Ag ---0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ti ----0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
K -----1 ----3 -----1------ 0----- 0 ----4 ------2 ------3
B ----46 ---32 ----37 -----0 -----4 ---21 -----33 -----25
Si ----6 ----5 ------7 -----3 -----3-----5------ 3 ------4
Na ---6 ----5 ------6----- 6 -----3 -----2 ------0 ------2
Ca -1931 -2211 -1694- 3046 -3090 -2442 -3162-- 3101
Mg --41 ---228 ---18 ----36 ---107 ---507 --655 ---598
P ---758 --1142 --723 --864 --966 ---1153 -1423 -1355
Zn --945 --1129- 885 --1045 -1168 --1378 -1742 -1624
Ba--- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Fuel% 2 -0 -0...

Particulates/soot always .3-.4
 
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Long_Range

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Nov 1, 2004
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Arthur, IL , USA
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Jetta Sedan GL 2004
dhdenney said:
I understand what you are saying about preempting the problem but with no light, I don't think I could do much in the warranty realm.
If the MAF shows up bad with a VagCom check the dealer techs will find the same when they check it.

I thought mine was still under emissions warranty so I foolishly took it into the dealership. They performed an extensive diagnostic. From their description it sounded just like the VagCom routine. They plugged in their laptop then two techs went for a drive. One man driving while the other ran the computer. WOT runs. I could even see the fuel gage had dropped some. They must have had a good time.

Dealership wanted $165 for the MAF and one hour labor. However they were sold out of MAFs after replacing two the day before. They cleared the CEL and it never came back on.

I realize I may be talking you into a bunch of work for nothing. But if you're going to diagnose a bad MAF I”d think you'd want to do it before 50K miles. Their has to be some reason for making more soot than some chipped cars.

BTW I'm still looking to see this drop in soot production we hoped for with ULSDF.
 

Long_Range

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Arthur, IL , USA
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Jetta Sedan GL 2004
Nice numbers LVPAJetta. And on a chipped car to boot.
Did you get soot numbers with that? What oil ? You may want to post your cars specs. We are a nosey bunch after all.
 

dhdenney

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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Long_Range said:
If the MAF shows up bad with a VagCom check the dealer techs will find the same when they check it.

I thought mine was still under emissions warranty so I foolishly took it into the dealership. They performed an extensive diagnostic. From their description it sounded just like the VagCom routine. They plugged in their laptop then two techs went for a drive. One man driving while the other ran the computer. WOT runs. I could even see the fuel gage had dropped some. They must have had a good time.

Dealership wanted $165 for the MAF and one hour labor. However they were sold out of MAFs after replacing two the day before. They cleared the CEL and it never came back on.

I realize I may be talking you into a bunch of work for nothing. But if you're going to diagnose a bad MAF I”d think you'd want to do it before 50K miles. Their has to be some reason for making more soot than some chipped cars.

BTW I'm still looking to see this drop in soot production we hoped for with ULSDF.
I had my car at the dealer yesterday. I should have ask if they would run a VAG COM on it. Doubt it though. I use almost exclusive BioWillie B20 so I would think that soot would be lower.
 

Long_Range

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Jetta Sedan GL 2004
They may charge you an hour labor for checking the MAF. I paid $43.50 for the diagnostic. They only charged me a half hour but said they charge a full hour for a MAF plus the $168.10 for the part. tdiparts has PD MAFs for $125.

Just from driving mine I'd noticed it being a little sluggish and hard to get rolling without some clutch slippage. Before the CEL came on. So I suppose if your car runs smooth and doesn't smoke you could call it good. If you don't know anyone with a VagCom.
 

LVPAJetta

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GSW, 2015, Silver, 6-spd
numbers

Long_Range said:
Nice numbers LVPAJetta. And on a chipped car to boot.
Did you get soot numbers with that? What oil ? You may want to post your cars specs. We are a nosey bunch after all.
The last two changes have been Elf 5w-40, the one before that was a 505.01 "recommended" oil (46 on the iron), the 3 before that were Motul, and going back from there it was all Delvac 1. Car was chipped at 96.6k miles.
 
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dhdenney

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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Long_Range said:
They may charge you an hour labor for checking the MAF. I paid $43.50 for the diagnostic. They only charged me a half hour but said they charge a full hour for a MAF plus the $168.10 for the part. tdiparts has PD MAFs for $125.

Just from driving mine I'd noticed it being a little sluggish and hard to get rolling without some clutch slippage. Before the CEL came on. So I suppose if your car runs smooth and doesn't smoke you could call it good. If you don't know anyone with a VagCom.
I'd like to buy VAG COM but I just have so much I need to buy and I'm unemployed right now. Would be nice to get soot cut in half though. Not sure what to do about it.... My car doesn't smoke noticeably.
 

mparker326

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Feb 28, 2005
Location
Knoxville, TN
TDI
Golf 2002 Gray
Quaker State 505.01 UOA

Here is a Quaker State 505.01 UOA taken at 7500 miles.

Relevant data:

Car - Passat 2.0 L
Fuel - Primarily B20/LSD mix
Mileage on Car - 27500
Oil Filter - Mann
Type of driving - 80% city / 20% highway. Some real short trips (dropping 2 kids off at different daycares).

Sample was taken with an extractor pump and the second sample was sent in. I took the sample after a 100 mile trip & 20 minute cooldown.

Oil has not been changed.

Comments?

 
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AndyH

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May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
dhdenney said:
Not so much for that purpose, just wanted to get some residuals out. I always use a Pela and next time I am going to use a bottom drain and Pela to suck out oil cooler/housing. I am not necessarily switching oil, I am out of everything (oil leak zapped the remaining qts I had) so I am gonna try LL3 for 10K and make a comparison for myself since I shouldn't necessarily compare UOAs with other users.
The oil reports I have are the four from Staveley. Two at 5000 miles, one at 9865, and the most recent at 6101. We know from other 505.01 results that the oil thins in service and appears to give it's worst wear numbers in the middle of the drain interval - and this is where most of your data is centered. Since it appears that the wear rate is not linear (some increase as the oil thins, a decrease in the last 1/2 of the interval), I see no reason to believe that you have more wear at the 46000 mile point.

Your rate of wear at the mid point of an oil change is running between 8.4 and 9.6 ppm iron per thousand miles (ppm/1k). Your last sample was 8.8 ppm/1K.

Your rate of wear later in a drain interval - one data point - is 8.3 ppm/1K.

To decide on an oil, based solely on wear rate, I'd plan on four intervals with one oil. Disregard any oil analysis results from the first interval as it's not going to be representative. Don't put much emphasis on mid-interval wear rates as you already know these will be higher than the overall interval. Don't bother with any engine flush in this instance - it's basically spending money to chase 1 or 2 ppm from the engine in order to possibly generate 1 or 2 ppm in new damage from additive clash. This is 'mouse nuts' or 'much ado about nothing', since we have a plus/minus 10% range for the same oil sample at the same lab.

How significant is 2 ppm when your 'ruler' can only measure to the closest 10 ppm? You have about +/- 5 ppm at the midpoint drains and about +/- 8 ppm at the end.

Andy
 

dhdenney

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Kentucky
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2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
AndyH said:
The oil reports I have are the four from Staveley. Two at 5000 miles, one at 9865, and the most recent at 6101. We know from other 505.01 results that the oil thins in service and appears to give it's worst wear numbers in the middle of the drain interval - and this is where most of your data is centered. Since it appears that the wear rate is not linear (some increase as the oil thins, a decrease in the last 1/2 of the interval), I see no reason to believe that you have more wear at the 46000 mile point.

Your rate of wear at the mid point of an oil change is running between 8.4 and 9.6 ppm iron per thousand miles (ppm/1k). Your last sample was 8.8 ppm/1K.

Your rate of wear later in a drain interval - one data point - is 8.3 ppm/1K.

To decide on an oil, based solely on wear rate, I'd plan on four intervals with one oil. Disregard any oil analysis results from the first interval as it's not going to be representative. Don't put much emphasis on mid-interval wear rates as you already know these will be higher than the overall interval. Don't bother with any engine flush in this instance - it's basically spending money to chase 1 or 2 ppm from the engine in order to possibly generate 1 or 2 ppm in new damage from additive clash. This is 'mouse nuts' or 'much ado about nothing', since we have a plus/minus 10% range for the same oil sample at the same lab.

How significant is 2 ppm when your 'ruler' can only measure to the closest 10 ppm? You have about +/- 5 ppm at the midpoint drains and about +/- 8 ppm at the end.

Andy
So to get an accurate representation, one should sample at say 2500, 5000, 7500, and then 10,000 miles for an accurate comparison?
 

sdeck

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Aug 25, 2006
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Northern Colorado Front Range
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2003 Jetta, 253K, 01M, DLC520s, VNT-17(sold); 2014 Passat SE 6M, 61,000 miles (Feb 16 buyback date)
I got my first oil analysis from Blackstone this morning. See below.

History of vehicle:

2003 Jetta TDI, Daily commuter, 110 hwy miles round trip

Bought used w/70K 1 year ago. One owner, all dealer service.

Converted to GC kit 11 months/28K ago.

Had a rear seal blow out a few months back, replaced in a shop (VW/MB specialty, not dealer).

I cleaned the intake manifold/EGR/intercooler at about 80K

4-5 months ago had some issues with the turbo actuator being physically obstructed for a few weeks, solved it, but engine ran with intermittent turbo for maybe 1500-2000 miles.

Timing belt and tranny flush done at 100K, same shop as rear seal.

I run on WVO about 70% of the miles.

I have a TDIheater running on a timer 3 h before leaving each morning.

recent compression test showed 480/480/490/480

Current concerns are oil consumption and loudness of vehicle. Seems to sound a lot like a diesel. Pretty loud. No real power issues and exhaust is ocassionally black upon hard acceleration. I am using about 1 quart of oil every 3K.

This oil report really has me worked up. I cannot afford to have this thing blow up on me and would really like to avoid any major engine work. The coolant contamination has me perplexed. The coolant level has been rock steady for at least 12K
Please post comments as to how serious this is.


 

TornadoRed

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mparker326 said:
Here is a Quaker State 505.01 UOA taken at 7500 miles. ... Mileage on Car - 27500...
Sample was taken with an extractor pump and the second sample was sent in. I took the sample after a 100 mile trip & 20 minute cooldown.

Oil has not been changed.
I think you should change it. The soot at 0.70% is getting up there, and the Fe at 89 ppm is very high even on a relatively low-mile engine.

When you say the sample was taken with an extractor pump, do you mean a clean pump with no chance of previous contamination?
 
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