stick with G52 in your tranny - here's why...

03_01_TDI

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Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C
(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90

15.6 = VW G50 (synthetic)
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
9.08 = penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid
6.3 = VW G52 (mineral)


Added in what I use. Penzoil Synchromesh. But will switch to Amsoil when I order my by-pass filter.
 

dieseldorf

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SUNRG, thanks for pulling that! I'm luvin' the chart! :D
 

Zero10

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05 Golf TDI PD, Tiptronic
How is redline 80W90 thinner than 75W90?.... That puzzles me.

Also,
I'm going to change the transmission fluid in my 951 this year, and want to go with something a bit thinner. Looks like the syncromesh is a good choice if it's a 75W90 oil, where could I find that out?


(sorry if I hijacked)
 

Frank M

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Gl-4

03_01_TDI said:
Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C
(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90

15.6 = VW G50 (synthetic)
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
9.08 = penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid
6.3 = VW G52 (mineral)


Added in what I use. Penzoil Synchromesh. But will switch to Amsoil when I order my by-pass filter.​


Wow , those are all GL-4....:confused:

I know the Mobil Synthetic is not and I was told by Mobil "do not use in your VW transaxle"
 

karlaudi

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2002 VW Golf GLS 1.9TDi; 2012 Volkswagen Golf 2.0 TDi
SUNRG said:
karlaudi - you and i don't disagree. from my initial post:

i am not recommending second guessing VW. i've repeatedly posted that my shifting with G52 was just fine. i personally am experimenting with some other manual transmission fluids - but i'm not recommending that anyone else does. i have stated that IMHO if someone was bent on going with something other than OEM mineral G52 that Redline MTL seems like it may be the most similar after-market option.

you wrote:

i took "etc" to mean G52, and the viscosity of G52 is not the same as G50 or G51 - that's all.

you've been referring to your 2002 Bentley Manual. below is page 34-15 of the 2005 Bentley. regarding the two G52s (mineral and synthetic) it states "Viscosity is not specified for either gear oil." i have had the mineral G52 repeatedly lab tested (used sample tested 4x, new sample tested 2x) and its V@100c is 6.3cSt or very close to that. because it is clearly NOT a 75w-90 gear oil i've recommended "sticking with OEM G52 if that's what your transmission specifies" because as AndyH has stated, using a fluid that's significantly thicker than what is OEM specified can decrease performance and increase wear.




SUNRG, Cool Chart!

I currently only have the CD-ROM Manual and this chart I do not believe is listed. The viscosities that I quoted are listed with the General Specifications, Technical Data and Capacities section for the Manual Transmissions. VW/Audi Part Numbers for the various gear oils are not listed in this section.

I wrote "etc." because, although G52 was never mentioned, it was in the TSB I provided and I did not have either an updated CD-ROM or the latest hardcopy manual. Experience indicated later manuals would most likely list it.

We may both be on opposite sides of the same page.:)
 

SUNRG

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Zero10 said:
How is redline 80W90 thinner than 75W90?.... That puzzles me.
these are all V@100c which is basically viscosity when HOT - so only the second number in a multigrade listing applies (the 90 in a 75w-90 or 80w-90).

now, 90 weight oils can be of V@100c viscosities ranging from 13.5cSt to 23.9cSt.

taking this information into consideration, we know for certain that syncromesh is NOT a 75w-90.

Also, I'm going to change the transmission fluid in my 951 this year, and want to go with something a bit thinner. Looks like the syncromesh is a good choice if it's a 75W90 oil, where could I find that out?
FrankM wrote:
Wow , those are all GL-4....:confused:
No.

(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90 GL4/5
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90 GL4
15.6 = VW G50 (synthetic) GL4
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90 GL5
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90 GL4/5
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90 GL4/5
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90 GL?
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90 GL4
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80 GL4
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler) NONE
9.08 = penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid NONE
6.3 = VW G52 (mineral) NONE
karlaudi wrote:
We may both be on opposite sides of the same page.:)
agreed!

cheers!
 

AndyH

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Sigh... Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the parts counter... :)

I picked-up my liter of G052171A2 today. I also got what I thought was going to be my liter of G052726A2 and when I looked at the bottle in the car (I don't recommend reading transmission fluid bottles while driving down the interstate at 75, by the way...!) and it's G055726A2. Ahhh...what's G55?!
 

SUNRG

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AndyH said:
Sigh... Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the parts counter... :)

I picked-up my liter of G052171A2 today. I also got what I thought was going to be my liter of G052726A2 and when I looked at the bottle in the car (I don't recommend reading transmission fluid bottles while driving down the interstate at 75, by the way...!) and it's G055726A2. Ahhh...what's G55?!
G55 must be the really-REALLY-ultra-mega-mega OEM gear oil :D
 

dieseldorf

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Yeah, Troy has mentioned G55...he says that's what they use at his place.

I have no idea what it is.
 

Frank M

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superseded?

AndyH said:
I also got what I thought was going to be my liter of G052726A2 and when I looked at the bottle in the car and it's G055726A2. Ahhh...what's G55?!
perhaps the G52 726 has been superseded with the G55 heh...:confused:
 

AndyH

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The G052 smells very...solventy... with none of the usual sulfur smell, and absolutely no fruity notes. ;) The G055 had a 'nice' sulfur smell and seemed a 'proper smelling' gear oil. It's like the difference between smelling acetone (G052) and paint thinner (G055). I was kinda joking in the other thread that G52 was ATF -- but it smells a whole lot closer to hydraulic fluid than gear lube, for sure.
 
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AndyH

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Synchromesh:
You've got it, Rob -- synchromesh isn't 75W-90 - it's an application specific gear lube that replaces 5W-30 engine oil in certain GM and Chrysler transmissions.

75W vs 75 gear lubes - apples and oranges:
There were questions about 75W and 75W-90 earlier and it seemed that things got off-course a bit. There are a couple of different types of viscosity measurement. Viscosity is generic 'thickness' of the fluid in a specific condition. The SAE 90 (the -90 side of 75W-90) is kinematic viscosity at 100C. One way of measuring this is to put oil in a calibrated cup with a hole in the bottom - you time how long it takes the fluid to drain and look up the viscosity on a chart. Other viscosity measurements are made with the fluid in motion - like HTHS (yes Rob - I agree it's a viscosity measurement ;) ) where the 'apparent' viscosity is measured as a fluid lubricates a bearing at a certain speed and load and temperature. This gives a different value than the kinematic value, even at the same temperature, because parts of the oil - like the viscosity improver additives - 'straighten' or 'align' when being squeezed thru narrow passages and the oil temporarily 'thins'. The 'cold' viscosity - the 75W part - is an 'apparent' viscosity measurement at some cold temperature. In engine oil, the point is to examine the oil's resistance to cold cranking.

The 'oil in motion' equipment is calibrated with straight-weight reference fluids - they know that a straight 10 fluid causes x amount of torqe loss at a specific condition, and 20 fluid causes more. The oil under test is run, the torque loss is measured, and the test oil is labeled according to how well it behaves compared to the straight weight reference fluids. It's possible for the same fluid to have different ratings as well -- AMSOIL's marine gear lube is a 75W/80W-90 -- it behaves as both a 75W and an 80W in the individual tests.

The point of this is that the 75W and the 90 are different measurements at different temperatures using different measuring equipment and can't be directly compared.

Andy
 

Zero10

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Well, I'm going to try the synchromesh in my 951. The wear tests are looking good. My only concern is the oil won't create enough drag for the synchro's to work properly. If this happens, I'll pick the standard Amsoil 75W90 for my transmission, as it has the lowest viscosity for a 75W90 oil that I have found.
Thanks for all the info on this stuff!
 

robnitro

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The GM/Chrysler trannies were spec'ing ATF which is thinner than the Syncromesh. I remember hearing about certain gears in the newer Corvettes having problems with the syncros not grabbing. The syncromesh helped their shifting, so it should be good for your 951. For me, I will probably switch to the Specialty Forumlations MTL-R (75w90) or MTL-P (70w80). They are thicker like the stock G50 but awesome with the syncros. Mattkosem of this board loves it and the bobistheoilguy.com forums like it too for many applications.
 

Zero10

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I am concerned about R&P wear however, since I cannot find film strength specs for Amsoil's synchromesh...
I am waiting for that data from Amsoil before I fill my transaxle with it.

I've heard about lots of fancy european cars having notchy transmission problems solved by synchromesh, and so I have been given hope.
 

AndyH

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Zero10 said:
I am concerned about R&P wear however, since I cannot find film strength specs for Amsoil's synchromesh...
I am waiting for that data from Amsoil before I fill my transaxle with it.

I've heard about lots of fancy european cars having notchy transmission problems solved by synchromesh, and so I have been given hope.
Do you have any film strength specs for the other synchromesh fluids?
 

AndyH

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robnitro said:
The GM/Chrysler trannies were spec'ing ATF which is thinner than the Syncromesh. I remember hearing about certain gears in the newer Corvettes having problems with the syncros not grabbing. The syncromesh helped their shifting, so it should be good for your 951. For me, I will probably switch to the Specialty Forumlations MTL-R (75w90) or MTL-P (70w80). They are thicker like the stock G50 but awesome with the syncros. Mattkosem of this board loves it and the bobistheoilguy.com forums like it too for many applications.
Current-tech ATFs are 0W-20 (Dexron III, Mercon V, ATF+4). The new Mercon SP is closer to 0W-10. Synchromesh is 5W-30. For comparison, 75W-90 viscosity converted to engine oil viscosity numbers is XW-40 to XW-50.

I've just drained the AMSOIL MTG 75W-90 from my '97 Passat (326,000 miles young; Dieselgeek short shift kit) and installed AMSOIL's MTF Synchromesh. It's an experiment in fuel mileage and shifting smoothness.

It's only been a few days of local driving so far, but everything feels 'lighter' - like my wagon lost a few pounds and turned into my old sedan. Synchro performance isn't quite as smooth as with the MTG, but it's not grinding. I've noticed on a couple of shifts that the gears hadn't quite 'synchronized' yet. It seems to coast a bit easier, and seems to have a bit more power - but these are seriously unscientific. I've just filled up and have some trips planned - I'll see what happens to fuel burn.

Andy
 

hutchman

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G55

G-055-726-A2 has come up in the A5 thread. Several A5 folks have complained about a noise coming from the front end when first starting up for the day and turning the steering to the left or right.

Several have reported that G55 was the fix for this problem. I asked my dealer about it and they talked to VWoA and didn't recommend it (G55) to fix the problem so some dealers are using it while others are not. Typical right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing stuff.

BLITDI said his dealer put G55 in his A5 and that it was made in Argentina.

My A5 made the noise too when new but now that it has almost 20k miles on it I don't notice it as bad now.

AndyH said:
Sigh... Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the parts counter... :)

I picked-up my liter of G052171A2 today. I also got what I thought was going to be my liter of G052726A2 and when I looked at the bottle in the car (I don't recommend reading transmission fluid bottles while driving down the interstate at 75, by the way...!) and it's G055726A2. Ahhh...what's G55?!
 
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Zero10

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AndyH said:
Do you have any film strength specs for the other synchromesh fluids?
No, I can't find them from any manufacturers.
Given that synchromesh isn't suitable for hypoid gears I have re-thought my choices. I finally settled on Redline MTL. It is going in early next week. We'll see how it does, I expect good things from it.
 

AndyH

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G-052-171-A2

Viscosity at 40C 31.2 cSt
Viscosity at 100C 6.5 cSt

Silicon 7
Boron 140
Calcium 7
Barium 0
Phosphorus 297
Zinc 1
Molybdenum 220

G-055-726-A2

Viscosity at 40C 35.1 cSt
Viscosity at 100C 6.38 cSt

Silicon 4
Boron 0
Calcium 2
Barium 18
Phosphorus 465
Zinc 1
Molybdenum 0
 

AndyH

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Latest Summary?

(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
GL-4/-5
15.6 = VW G50/G51
GL-4
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90 GL-4
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
GL-5
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
GL-4/-5
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
GL-4/-5
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
GL-5
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
GL-4
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
GL-4
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
None
9.08 = Penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid None
7.5 = Redline D4 ATF Dexron III / Mercon / API GL-4
6.5 = VW G-052-171-A2 None
6.38 = VW G-055-726-A2 None
6.3 = VW G52 (part numbers G052726A2 / G05272601) None

(Automatic Tranny Fluids - except for Redline D4 dual-use)
8.3 = Honda CVT Fluid
7.6 = Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
7.5 = AMSOIL Automatic transmission fluid ATF
7.5 = Redline D4 ATF Dexron III / Mercon / API GL-4
7.4 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Dexron/Mercon
7.2 = Redline Synthetic ATF Dexron II / Mercon
7.1 = Mobil 1 Synthetic Multi-vehicle ATF
7.1 = AMSOIL Ford type F auto trans fluid
5.5-6 = Ford Mercon SP
 
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mydeathbynapalm

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So what is it? heh I'm about to install a Peloquin LSD in my '02 02J trans with a nice clutch. Looks like Red Line MT-90 would be a good choice, yes? The MTL MIGHT improve economy a little over the 90? Is there a concrete suggestion givin all the analysis so far?
 

Zero10

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Well, I said I would report back....
It's been 200 miles with the MTL in the transaxle of my 951. Cold shifting is 10x better. There is no longer any notchiness at all. There were several situations that in the past would consistently result in grinding gears (i.e. clutch in at ~10mph, trying to grab first gear), and out of the 10 or 15 times I have been in those situations, I've gotten one, maybe two grinds.
I can't really speak of 'hot' performance since I haven't been to the track yet, but 'warm' performance is still excellent.
I just hope my R&P doesn't grind itself to dust from the thinner fluid.
I once again feel confident to let another person drive my car, it used to be so finnicky that I wouldn't allow anybody else behind the wheel.
 

AndyH

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Napalm,

The Chevron oil is petroleum based. There are a bunch of Group III 'synthetics' and PAO and/or ester products that will provide better fuel economy, cooler running, and longer life.

The 'best' choice will depend on what one's primary goal is for the fluid. For the folks looking for the car to perform exactly the way the Wolfsburg engineers (representing Deutchland!) designed it, find the specified OEM fluid (whether G50, G51, one of the G52s or G55) and run with it. For those of us that are looking for every bit of fuel economy and understand that we might be self-warranting our transmission (product mis-application), we might select one of the less viscous choices.

My '97 calls for G50 - a PAO-based 75W-90 GL-4. I have just over 2000 miles on AMSOIL MTF synchromesh 5W-30 PAO with no GL rating. I'm not as happy with shifting, especially from a stop (that push into first, especially), but I've picked up an average of .9 MPG. My next experiment will probably be the OEM VW G-052-171-A2, since it's lighter yet, it's synthetic, and I already have a liter.

I would be surprised if you see any fuel economy increase between either G50 or MT90 on a move to MTL. My jump was from a 13.8cSt 75W-90 to a 9.6cSt synchromesh and I didn't see a full one MPG.

If you're going for a Redline product and looking for increased efficiency, maybe try the D4 ATF - it's a bit lighter than synchromesh but GL-4 rated. As long as the synchros felt happy, you should keep your mechanical wear in check and pick up around 1 MPG.

Andy
 
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SUNRG

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Andy - thanks so much for getting all that lab work done and all the light you've shed on this! i may try the Redline D4 7.5 cSt GL-4 oil in my tranny. cheers!
 

AndyH

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SUNRG said:
Andy - thanks so much for getting all that lab work done and all the light you've shed on this! i may try the Redline D4 7.5 cSt GL-4 oil in my tranny. cheers!
Glad to help, Rob. Big thanks to you -- you're the guy that started this! This will be a nice compliment to all the work you've done on PD oil awareness.

Andy
 

david_594

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Now if only someone could come up with a list with all the viscoscities at 40 degrees so those of us in colder climates would know what will make our car happiest.
 
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