911 Please help! No start issues

Hey everyone. I'm a long time member here and have many trouble free miles/kms under my belt with my 2001 NB, but my son recently bought a 2002 TDI golf and about a month after he bought it it died in a parking lot and I can't figure out for the life of me why it won't start.



So I'm pleading for some help from all the brains that are members of the site, and I know there are many of you.



Please read my post all the way through before you comment on what you think it might be, because we have tested just about every scenario we can think of that may have caused it to quit/not start, and we thing we've narrowed it down to one area.



As mentioned above the car is a 2002 Golf, with a Malone stage 3 tune with immobilizer delete. Standard trans, no AC.



It all started when Trev (my son) was coming out of a meeting one day and started the car up to leave. it started ok, and he managed to back out of the stall and then drive forward about 30 feet and he said the engine started to make a funny sound. I asked him what he meant and he said it seemed to get louder under the hood / behind the dash, so he shut it off. It has not started since that day (about 2 months ago).



So I'm going to list off the things we have checked to try to narrow down/fix the problem. These are not in any order because quite frankly I can't remember what sequence we did each thing in.



- Checked and double checked the 109 relay. We have tried 3 relays in total to make sure. (As a side note we have my old 2001 NB TDI that still runs, and a 2002 Jetta TDI that doesn't run, here to swap parts in and out of) We also swapped out a few other relay's to be sure it wasn't that.



-Checked and double checked all the fuses using the method while the fuses are still in the car.



-Took the injection pump out of the car and took it to the good folks at NW FUEL in Port Kells BC to have it tested (Gord, the owner is a family friend and has been a great help though out this). NW FUEL has the ability to run the pump up and test it as if it's running in the car. The result was that the pump is in stellar condition. The guy who tested it said he couldn't get it any better if he had just rebuilt it.



-Put the pump back in the car and fed it with a hose and funnel in which we poured about half a gallon of diesel through it to eliminate any filter or air lock issues. Still no start...



-Checked and re-did all the ground posts under the battery area.



-Checked that the EGR air cut off valve thing was open during cranking, and it is (sorry I forget the proper name). At this point I wanted to see if it would run and that it wasn't a mechanical issue, I squirted some starting fluid in the open intake while cranking and the engine started up for the short time that I fed it starting fluid. This eliminates any mechanical/engine issues.



-The glow plug light comes on for a second or two and then shuts off as it should do normally.



-The tachometer registers about 200 to 300 RPM while cranking, to indicate that the crank sensor is OK. I swapped it out anyway to make sure, and still no start.



-We changed out the #3 injector from my running NB and still no start.



-We traced all the wires from the main injector pump to the ECU to make sure there were no broken wires, and all had continuity.



-We made sure the shut off solenoid was clicking and getting power, and it is. We also put a jumper to it to make sure it wasn't the solenoid, and still no start.



-We've physically inspected the pins and plugs at the IP to make sure there were no burnt or bad ones and they are all clean and in good condition.



-We've gone through the list of which pins should be getting power at key on and they all check out good. Both at the IP plug and the ECU plugs.



-We've checked for codes with Vag-Com and there are no codes in the engine section. The ECU does talk to the Vag-Com so it is getting power. There are two codes in the instrument section and one of them is to do with the immobilizer. I can't remember the other one but I will find out. (I realize this may be the issue so I'll come back to this later).



-We've gone through the whole list of reasons that TDI's won't start on the forum here and still can't find the problem.



After a long talk with Gord at NW FUEL we have decided that the ECU is not happy for some reason and won't pump fuel. Gord says that the stop solonoid on the pump is actually only there for backup and that the pump has the ability to stop fuel flow internally if it wants.



So at this point I'm asking for help from all the smart folks on here to help me diagnose my problem. I do have a Vag-Com so I can check parameters etc., I just don't have the smarts to know what to check, aside from the obvious. I'm open to any and all suggestions and would really appreciate the help. My son and I are pulling our hair out with this thing and just want to get it fixed.



I will find out what the second code was in the Vag-Com as well and will post it here as soon as I do. Please help, we are looking forward to your replies.

Anti-shudder valve? Fuel filter. Injectors primed? Last time they were serviced? Done a compression/leakdown test?

Anti shudder valve is good. As described in the post we eliminated the fuel issues by feeding the IP with strait fuel via a hose and funnel. Engine runs when starting fluid is fed to it via the intake piping so it's not a compression or engine issue. The injector lines have fuel in them so it's not an air lock issue either. We pulled an injector off a running engine and it doesn't spray any fuel so it's not the injectors...

did you check the timing belt?

Relay 109

Relay 109 as these Mk4's are aging I'm seeing a few more relay (109) failures.
1J0-906-381-A
https://www.idparts.com/relay-109-a4b4a3-p-350.html

[/url][/IMG]

A few notes: If it was immobilizer the car would start briefly, and then shut off with the light on the dash.

At this point I would go back to basics, take the pipe off going to the EGR and make sure everythings open properly, apply 12v to the inj pump manually and be cracking injectors to make sure fuel is being pushed to the cylinders. If this all checks out you most likely have a timing issue.

Considering he had the IP off.. the timing belt should be ok (in regards to leafs comment)

A faulty crank shaft position sensor could cause a no-start and may not show a DTC in VCDS. I don't know if this applies to an ALH; but if so, try wiggling the attached cable which becomes brittle over time. Happened to me on my BEW.

Reidler said:

..................It all started when Trev (my son) was coming out of a meeting one day and started the car up to leave. it started ok, and he managed to back out of the stall and then drive forward about 30 feet and he said the engine started to make a funny sound. I asked him what he meant and he said it seemed to get louder under the hood / behind the dash, so he shut it off. It has not started since that day (about 2 months ago).............................

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This is what caught my eye, funny sound, louder. Most of your thorough diagnosis does not account for that.

Timing belt slipped or big hose has popped loose. Outliers include things like clogged catalytic converter.
Look underneath, that's where the big pipes come loose. First check the timing belt for tension, shredded teeth, general carnage. Compression check for confidence.

Reidler said:

Anti shudder valve is good. As described in the post we eliminated the fuel issues by feeding the IP with strait fuel via a hose and funnel. Engine runs when starting fluid is fed to it via the intake piping so it's not a compression or engine issue. The injector lines have fuel in them so it's not an air lock issue either. We pulled an injector off a running engine and it doesn't spray any fuel so it's not the injectors...

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The fact that it runs using starting fluid leads me to believe that you have an injector issue still at this point. Most of the time all of the injectors need to be within a certain percentage or window of each other. Pulling off an injector won't tell you the issue. I would honestly send them off and have them flow tested. You could be pouring fluid down one of the cylinders if one is wide open

The "funny" noise could have been the engine running rough. Was there any mention of excessive smoke (ie whitish)?

Thanks for all your replies. I'll answer then as a go here.

The Anti shudder valve is definitely ok. I watched it as it was cranking and it did not close. Also keep in mind that the engine runs on starting fluid, so that fact alone eliminates the anti shudder valve question, as well as the timing belt, cat and compression questions.

We did apply 12v to the pump solonoid and cranked the engine and still had no fuel at the injectors. Cracking the lines does give us some fuel, but with these pumps that is not an indication of the pressure needed to pop the injector. Gord at NW explained that many folks get caught off guard by thinking that because there is diesel in the lines that the injectors are getting enough pressure to make the engine run, but with these pumps that is not the case. What that does show is that the shut off solonoid is indeed in the run position but the pump itself (or more specifically the ECU) is not happy and therefore not pumping fuel.

The timing belt is fine and timing is good because the engine runs on Starting fluid. Also we have done 2 pump swaps on it now and checked the belt and tension twice now.

The 109 relay was checked and double checked and swapped out with 2 replacements. One out of a running car. Also the fact that the ECU is talking to the VCDS is indication that it is powered up. Also, we checked all the power points that the relay supplies in the ECU plug and they are all positive voltage (or high if you like) at key on. We also checked the power at the pins on the pump plug and all the ones that are supposed to have power, did.

As far as unbalanced injectors, I will try that next. As mentioned above I have a running car here so I will swap out the injectors next and see if that's it. I doubt one of the injectors is open, because during all our cranking we are in a closed shop and there is zero smell of fuel at the exhaust pipe. There was no mention of white smoke when it first died.

As for the crank sensor, I did swap in one I have here and got the same result. The tachometer shows about 2 to 3 hundred RPM while cranking. It's my understanding that a functioning tach is indication that the crank sensor is working. Is that a correct assumption or is it still possible that the crank sensor is faulty? Having said that the one I swapped in came off of a non running car so it's not guaranteed to be operational. I can swap in the one from the running engine but have not done that yet.

Since my first post I was told that if I swap in a different ECU, even it it's not married to the car, it will still give me a run then stop when I try to start it. So we tried that by swapping in the Jetta ECU and nothing changed. Still no start at all. This should rule out a faulty ECU I would guess, but because we have it here, we are going to swap out the NB ECU because it is a known good part. Will post up results when we get a chance.

Thanks for all your suggestions!

Reidler said:

We did apply 12v to the pump solonoid and cranked the engine and still had no fuel at the injectors. Cracking the lines does give us some fuel, but with these pumps that is not an indication of the pressure needed to pop the injector.


As far as unbalanced injectors, I will try that next. As mentioned above I have a running car here so I will swap out the injectors next and see if that's it. I doubt one of the injectors is open, because during all our cranking we are in a closed shop and there is zero smell of fuel at the exhaust pipe. There was no mention of white smoke when it first died.


Thanks for all your suggestions!

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The red is a contradicting statement. You are getting fuel at the injectors if you crack the line and there is fuel, but you are correct that you may not be getting enough pressure to the injectors.

This is caused when one of 2 things (usually happens)
1) The IP is not providing enough pressure
2) An injector(s) is stuck open

If you are just cranking and cranking you aren't likely to smell anything. The white smoke (or lighter colored) is going to be the sign of unburnt fuel once the car is started, and then you should be able to smell it then. Just cranking alone won't put anything out the tailpipe because nothing is being exhausted, or burnt for that matter.

Every experience I've had with started fluid or anything similar for that matter has lead to an injector issue.

Good luck and let us know what you find, sounds like you've done your due diligence up to this point!

KrashDH said:

The red is a contradicting statement. You are getting fuel at the injectors if you crack the line and there is fuel, but you are correct that you may not be getting enough pressure to the injectors.
This is caused when one of 2 things (usually happens)
1) The IP is not providing enough pressure
2) An injector(s) is stuck open
If you are just cranking and cranking you aren't likely to smell anything. The white smoke (or lighter colored) is going to be the sign of unburnt fuel once the car is started, and then you should be able to smell it then. Just cranking alone won't put anything out the tailpipe because nothing is being exhausted, or burnt for that matter.
Every experience I've had with started fluid or anything similar for that matter has lead to an injector issue.
Good luck and let us know what you find, sounds like you've done your due diligence up to this point!

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Sorry about the contradiction, I'll elaborate. What we did was take off one injector line and attach a spare (known good) injector to see if it was firing when we cranked the engine. The injector does not fire (pop).
When I said we had fuel I was mearly cracking the nut on the fuel line to see if there was fuel there while the engine was cranking and there is fuel dripping out. On most diesels this is a true indication that the engine is getting fuel through the injectors, but as I mentioned above, this is not true for this pump. I was told by the guy that is authorized by Bosch to rebuild and test these pumps that fuel in the lines is NOT an indication that the pump is supplying enough pressure to fire the injectors. It's more of a residual pressure that is in the lines all the time. I'm not sure how that works but I'm not the expert so I have to believe him lol.
Anyway, I ran your suggestion by him and he said by all means to changout the injectors and see what happens. I'll keep you posted!

Thanks again.

Reidler said:

Sorry about the contradiction, I'll elaborate. What we did was take off one injector line and attach a spare (known good) injector to see if it was firing when we cranked the engine. The injector does not fire (pop).
When I said we had fuel I was mearly cracking the nut on the fuel line to see if there was fuel there while the engine was cranking and there is fuel dripping out. On most diesels this is a true indication that the engine is getting fuel through the injectors, but as I mentioned above, this is not true for this pump. I was told by the guy that is authorized by Bosch to rebuild and test these pumps that fuel in the lines is NOT an indication that the pump is supplying enough pressure to fire the injectors. It's more of a residual pressure that is in the lines all the time. I'm not sure how that works but I'm not the expert so I have to believe him lol.
Anyway, I ran your suggestion by him and he said by all means to changout the injectors and see what happens. I'll keep you posted!

Thanks again.

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I definitely know what your guy is talking about, my OEM injectors in my Cummins are Bosch, and the CP3 injection pump needs to provide a certain rail pressure in order for the truck to start. fuel in your lines does not mean the correct pressure to start the truck. I have a gauge that tells me what the RP is in that truck. Similarly, if the RP is low due to a leaking injector, then you will not be able to start the truck since you are bleeding off pressure in the line.
Keep us posted and good luck!

You need to bleed that pump, hook it up to a jerry can full of diesel for now as well to make sure you're getting good supply.

steve6 said:

You need to bleed that pump, hook it up to a jerry can full of diesel for now as well to make sure you're getting good supply.

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Yes we have done that. As mentioned in the first post, we hook the pump up to a hose and large funnel and I hold the funnel above the elevation of the pump and kept feeding it fuel as my son cranks the engine. We feed at least half a gallon of fuel through the pump before we stop so we are positive it has bled itself and is not starved for fuel. Everytime we try to start it we do the same thing to make sure it's not a fuel feeding issue. During cranking the pump does pull all the fuel I feed it from the funnel and through to the return back to the tank.

Were positive it's not a fuel starvation issue.

Fuel is diesel plus air. Could the air portion be clear out of whack?
I don't agree that running on starter fluid rules out all that other stuff.
The ECU doesn't do much except monitor until the engine runs.

OP, you mention the fuel "drips out"; it should not drip out it should spray all over the place--if not properly covered--so here is what I suggest: pick an injector, crack it open and crank until there is a stream of fuel coming out, pick another, repeat again. If you have a solid stream of fuel now tighten both injector nuts and now crank the car.
I don't see if you have been putting a charger on the battery between rounds of cranking or not.

BobnOH said:

Fuel is diesel plus air. Could the air portion be clear out of whack?
I don't agree that running on starter fluid rules out all that other stuff.

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This method of starting basically pre mixes the air/fuel before it enters in the cylinder so it all has to enter at once. I've rarely seen it be an air/intake issue. Basically the best troubleshooting tool for these kinds of problems. There are really 2 outcomes...it keeps running after it starts (roughly), or it dies when the fluid flow is stopped.

Reidler said:

At this point I wanted to see if it would run and that it wasn't a mechanical issue, I squirted some starting fluid in the open intake while cranking and the engine started up for the short time that I fed it starting fluid. This eliminates any mechanical/engine issues.

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I re read through everything and this caught my eye. Since the car didn't stay running after you gave it a shot of starting fluid (Use ether if you have to next time), I believe it to be a fuel supply issue. Even if you had an injector that was leaking wide open, once you got it started, it would stay running on its own power, but it would likely run rough. The fact that it stopped after you quit with the fluid tells me it was only detonating the starter fluid. Fuel is not getting to where it needs to be would be my internet diagnosis now; fuel supply

Had a recent no-start issue on my NB ALH. Issue turned out to be cracked injector return hose, letting air into the injection pump. Replaced hose and bled the injection pump with a mity-vac (pullued vacuum from Injection pump return line, pulled clean fuel through thus verifying pump is purged)
You removed the pump, I would be absolutly certain it's bled using a mity-vac or similar device. Your issue may not have been the pump but you may have unintentionally added another issue (air in system).


(ps, I dont reccomend this dont try at home but before i diagnosed my air is system issue, I shot some starting fluid directly into the intake (removed intake hose) and the car started right up (although very angry sounding) thus verifying it was mechanically ok since it fired on starting fluid. again I do not reccomend this unless you first disconnect the glow plugs etc. . dont try this at home etc Just saying.


I agree your issue appears to be a no-fuel related problem.

I haven't checked for the ALH, but I'm sure there is a flow rate from the IP that is nominal. You could rig up a system to catch fluid over a short amount of time and do your flow rate calculation. If it's under, it's for sure pump/system related and thus would be easy to move diagnosis onto things like the above OP mentioned including the lines

BobnOH said:

The ECU doesn't do much except monitor until the engine runs.

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I believe this is an incorrect statement. According to Gord at NW Fuel the ECU has to be happy before it will send fuel to the engine. It is in complete control of the fuel flow out of the IP, And it does have the ability to completely shut down the flow of fuel to the engine, even when the fuel shut off solenoid is in the run position. I asked Gord if the engine would run at all if the ECU wasn't there and he said no way.

Nevada_TDI said:

OP, you mention the fuel "drips out"; it should not drip out it should spray all over the place--if not properly covered--so here is what I suggest: pick an injector, crack it open and crank until there is a stream of fuel coming out, pick another, repeat again. If you have a solid stream of fuel now tighten both injector nuts and now crank the car.
I don't see if you have been putting a charger on the battery between rounds of cranking or not.

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This is exactly what I'm trying to get across. The pump is not supplying enough pressure to do what your suggesting. I did exactly what you said and it makes no difference. Keep in mind that these cars are designed to be bleed free. In other words if you run out of fuel you bleed it by simply cranking it over until it starts up again. With that in mind there should be no need to bleed anything. After a somewhat long session of cranking the engine should be running, especially since I am basically gravity feeding the pump to eliminate any air bubble problems. The residual fuel in the injector lines is always there, and yes it does drip out on this series of pump, so I've been told.
After having the original pump tested in running conditions (and passing with flying colours), and then swapping in a known good pump from a running engine, I think we can safely say the problem is not the pump or the supply of fuel to it.

Yes we are keeping the battery charged with a booster and topping it up overnight with a maintainer.

KrashDH said:

I re read through everything and this caught my eye. Since the car didn't stay running after you gave it a shot of starting fluid (Use ether if you have to next time), I believe it to be a fuel supply issue. Even if you had an injector that was leaking wide open, once you got it started, it would stay running on its own power, but it would likely run rough. The fact that it stopped after you quit with the fluid tells me it was only detonating the starter fluid. Fuel is not getting to where it needs to be would be my internet diagnosis now; fuel supply

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Thank you. This is my diagnosis as well. The point I'm trying to make is that the flow of fuel is being stopped by the IP. Not because it's incapable of doing it's job (as evidenced by using a tested pump and a known good pump), or because it doesn't have fuel available to be pumped, but because it's being told by the ECU to not pump fuel.
The supply of fuel to the pump itself is not in question. I am gravity feeding it fuel everything we try it, and it is pumping that fuel right back to the tank the way it's supposed to.

Ironforger said:

Had a recent no-start issue on my NB ALH. Issue turned out to be cracked injector return hose, letting air into the injection pump. Replaced hose and bled the injection pump with a mity-vac (pullued vacuum from Injection pump return line, pulled clean fuel through thus verifying pump is purged)
You removed the pump, I would be absolutly certain it's bled using a mity-vac or similar device. Your issue may not have been the pump but you may have unintentionally added another issue (air in system).

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Thanks for your suggestion. I did call Gord at NW fuel and ask him if this could be an issue. He said yes, what it will do is allow the fuel to bleed back into the fuel tank after shut down. When the engine is then cranked again the pump has to pull fuel all the way up to the pump before it has sufficient fuel for starting. This can be interpreted as a no start condition because usually the owner doesn't crank the engine long enough to get the fuel back to the pump for a start up. However, he did say that by feeding the pump with a gravity line as we have done, this problem is eliminated and in fact a cracked or leaking return line will actually drip fuel or at least get wet around the crack. We haven't see either of those two issues on our return lines. However, because you have me thinking about this, what I will do is disconnect the return line and feed it to a separate container, and then block off the port that goes to the pump. This will eliminate any air that could be getting back to the pump. I'll post my results once I get a chance to do this.

Thanks everyone...

I had a similar problem on my 1Z (96 Passat)...it turned out to be a clogged FUEL FILTER.
Of course, I learned this after I had mostly done everything/changed everything else possible on and around the engine.
Fuel starvation made the engine sound like it was breaking rocks before it quit.

Warthog said:

I had a similar problem on my 1Z (96 Passat)...it turned out to be a clogged FUEL FILTER.
Of course, I learned this after I had mostly done everything/changed everything else possible on and around the engine.
Fuel starvation made the engine sound like it was breaking rocks before it quit.

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Thanks for your reply. In this case (as detailed in the posts above) we have eliminated that possibility by feeding the pump directly with gravity feed right from a container. While cranking the engine the fuel in the container goes down as the pump moves it to the return side of the tank (as its designed to do). This proves without a doubt that fuel starvation and/or air/and or feed issues are not the problem.

since my last post I have now installed 4 know good injectors and will crank it tonight to see if it makes a difference. Will post up results when I get them.

If there is no pressure at the injector its not going to help anything. I feel you should take your car to a person who knows these cars, it will be diagnosed fairly quickly. Some of your points above about not needing to bleed the fuel system etc are totally false and also about the ECU interaction, they just don't understand the ALH.

steve6 said:

If there is no pressure at the injector its not going to help anything. I feel you should take your car to a person who knows these cars, it will be diagnosed fairly quickly. Some of your points above about not needing to bleed the fuel system etc are totally false and also about the ECU interaction, they just don't understand the ALH.

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Can you elaborate please? I agree with your sentence about the pressure at the injectors and quite honestly feel that changing injectors is a waste of time, but if I don't try all reasonable suggestions on here then I can't very well prove them wrong.
How do you suggest I bleed the pump? Is there a better way then supplying it with a gravity fed supply of fuel direct to the intake side of the pump?

Also, based on your reply I'm guessing you know how the interaction works between the pump and the ECU. If that's the case then you just the guy I'm looking for. Any suggestions on why the pump wont supply pressure to the injectors? Is there a sensor or something else I've overlooked in all my testing?

Ok so here's an update on our progress...

Changed out the injectors with a known good set. Result-No start.

Changed out the crank sensor with a known good unit, Result-No start.

Checked all the return hoses and have found no leaks or questionable areas.

Hooked up a remote starter to check if the problem might be with the start position of the key, in that perhaps the ECU or something else electrical wasn't getting power in the start position of the key but would get power in the normal run position. Result-No start.

During all of the above checks I'm feeding the injection pump with fresh clean fuel from an elevated container so as to eliminate any fuel feeding issues, fuel filter issues, air bleed issues etc. As I am cranking it the fuel is flowing from my container through the pump and back to the return side of the fuel tank like it's designed to do, without any possibility of getting air in the system.

As promised in my first post I have checked the VCDS for codes continually. There are no codes from the Engine section. There is however one persistent code in the instrument section as listed below:
01177 - Engine Control Module (not authorized?)
64-10 - Not Currently Testable - Intermittent

Does anyone know why I'm getting this code or what it means?

Vcds

01177 - Engine Control Unit
01177 - Engine Control Unit: Faulty
Possible Symptoms
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
Possible Causes
Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Engine Control Module (ECM) faulty
Engine Control Module (ECM) incompatible
Engine Control Module (ECM) faulty
Engine Control Module (ECM) modified
Immobilizer removed
Chiptuning (Chip replaced)
Possible Solutions
Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Engine Control Module (ECM)
Check/Replace Engine Control Module (ECM)
Check Engine Control Module (ECM) for Modifications
Old Style Chip Tuning where actual Chips are replaced may have resulted in bad Soldering or otherwise broken the ECM.

01177 - Engine Control Unit: Unauthorized
Possible Symptoms
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
Engine Start not permitted
Possible Causes
Immobilizer not adapted
Engine Control Module (ECM) modified
Immobilizer removed
Possible Solutions
Check/Adapt Immobilizer

01177 - Engine Control Unit: Not Currently Testable
Special Notes
When Found in Instrument Cluster (J285), check Engine Control Module (ECM/#01) for Fault Codes. This Code may be stored when the Cluster is unable to properly determine the Status of the ECM due to Communication Issues or because the ECM is occupied by other Tasks.

I read that same wiki stuff, great site.
Curious though, would you get that code if you had a bad fuse or relay 109 crapped out?

109

BobnOH said:

I read that same wiki stuff, great site.
Curious though, would you get that code if you had a bad fuse or relay 109 crapped out?

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No you would not. One of the "give-away" symptoms with Relay 109 failure is that you do not get a code.
No power to the ECU the instrument cluster would not present a display with the ignition switch on

I'm wondering about the fuses that feed the ECU. Maybe a bad one or poor connection?
I think the 110 amp fuse feeds relay 109. Poor connection there? Take it out, clean the connection, back in.

Also fuses 29, 32, 34, and 43 in the left side of the dash.
Take each out check resistance. Check inside each side of the socket for melted plastic.
If you had something the same size as the fuse blades you could check for lose connections there.

Long shot anyway.

Did you measure for 12 volts at the shutoff solenoid while cranking?
Also check for 12 volts at the 4 fuses above to have 12 volts while cranking.