5 Speed or 6 Speed, That is the question....

Spent the last couple of hours searching and reading previous posts trying to decide which way to go on this. Original GMR tranny puked at 221K miles, auto rebuild is super expensive, and I'm now planning on making the manual conversion.

I've found a mildly smashed in front end 2001 V6 gasser nearby in the scrap yard that I could use for Axles, transmission mount, clutch cylinder, pedals and shifting linkages. I couldn't tell through the locked window, but I'm assuming it has a 5 speed in her.

I plan on keeping the car and driving her as a commuter with the goal of getting 500k miles out of her, but since she went down, we've bought a mini van for the Mrs. so I could play with her a bit and perhaps tweak her out a little.

I'm thinking of getting a peppy tune, either a Rocket chip stage 2, or a tune from that guy in Utah. Looks like most of those tunes "claim" ~30 horsepower increase.

As I try to determine the cost vs. cool factor, I'm still tempted by the 6 speed transmissions, but I'm finding lots of mixed reviews about success of the 6 speed swaps. Almost all the threads sound like never ending projects plagued with faulty pinion bearings, slipping clutches, mis-fit flyweel/crank noses, gas trannys in TDI cars with over rev issues, rare and unique starters to find and vibrations in the 6 gear at 2000 rpm etc.

I've got Prices from Frans at Dutch Auto, and he has used 5 speeds for decent prices that are geared for smaller TDIs, as well as rebuilt 6 speeds.

Ubhere's 14 page thread chronicles his GVS 6 speed, and it has slightly taller 6 speed at .60 gear ratio.
From all the other comments on the various threads, it sounds like a super tall 6 speed, like the DQS with a 6th speed gear ratio of .56 really isn't worth the extra cost unless there is an increase in horsepower.

If I go 5 speed, I'm thinking FHN or DUK look like similar with 5th speed gear ratio around .68. Clutch and fly wheels definately look like sorting out which of those are a pain in the butt.

Big question is, will a 150-160HP BHW be manly enough to make the benefit of a DQS or GVS 6 speed worth it?

Will the gasser V6 fly wheel and Pressure plate work on the TDI 5 speed/ 6 speed manual swap? I'm pretty sure I understand the clutch needs to be different, and that the fly wheel used dictates if the stock starter will or won't work, but I couldn't tell from the other threads if they bought all new kits that included flywheel, pressure plate and clutch, or if the Gas donor car parts could be used?

Have you looked here?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=421722

If it were my money, my time, etc. etc. FHN/GGB/DUK 5 speed, TDTuning Stage 2 and Valeo SMF clutch. 16k trouble free miles on this conversion and several others.

IMO, 6 speed is cool, but not worth the hassle vs the more abundandt availability of parts for a 5 speed (i.e. the 2001 V6 gasser you found has all the hardware you need). Not to mention, spacing issues, reuse the stock BHW starter, etc. etc.

There is no huge gain in MPG either.

I have the DUK in mine, KermaTDI tune, and Valeo SMF clutch. Not more than 2000 miles on it yet, but I would definitely recommend this set-up. Even driving on sections of I-15 with speed limits of 80 MPH, the car feels great and gets over 40 MPG. I don't even notice/think about the revs, which I can't say for my Jetta with the stock 5 speed that hangs around 3K RPM at that speed.

The only thing I have noticed that would make me say a 6 speed is worth it is 2nd gear. In my Jetta, as long as I'm rolling I can keep it in 2nd and not use too much throttle to get out of the low RPMs. The DUK in the Passat though, 2nd is a lot taller. Rolling through yield signs, or going slow into driveways, etc. it always feels that I should be in 2nd. This keeps the RPMs way too low though and you quickly have to do a 1st gear scramble. This is made slightly worse by either a gear selector adjustment issue, a sticky synchro on 1st, or the Redline MTL really being that much worse than the OEM stuff. I'm sure I would acclimate to it real quick if I was driving it daily rather than my wife having it. Also, the GGB/FHN transmissions have a slightly lower 2nd gear (EDIT: 6.91:1 vs. 7.50:1), so that may make a difference too.

Is this an issue worth paying nearly twice as much for, adding some more complexity to, and switching to less common/harder to source parts? I definitely think not, but you may feel differently. 6 speeds definitely win the cool factor.

I don't notice that at all with the FHN or GGB.

Alcancia, do you have a BSM or have you deleted it?

I will say that there is a noticeable difference between a car with a BSM and one with a delete. I have driven all 4 set-ups back to back (auto/BSM, auto/delete, manual/BSM and manual/delete). All else being equal (same tune, same manual gearbox, etc.), and for lack of a better term, the BSM cars feel a little "sluggish" off the line vs a deleted car. That's not to say the BSM/manual combo is a slug, quite the contrary, it's just the delete revs easier and quicker without the weight of the BSM holding them back.

Yes, the 6 speed wins the "cool factor" but for every day, fun to drive, dependability, and great MPG, I would choose the 5 speed every time.

So yeah, I just did some excel calculations to compare gearing in my Jetta's EBJ 02J to the DUK 012, and they are nearly identical through the lower gears. So everything I said above isn't due to transmission gearing.

Obviously something is going on with my BHW not making the same power below 2000 RPM though. The PO did a geared BSM. The Passat is bigger/heavier. I may have to check the turbo actuator as well. I guess this is the downside of swapping the transmission on a newly purchased car, I don't know what it's "supposed" to drive like as what it drives like now is all I've known.

mrrhtuner said:

Have you looked here?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=421722

Click to expand...

Mrrhtuner,
I did read that thread. The thing that is missing from most of the threads are a back to back driving reports between the different transmissions, clutch setups and other various feedback that will help make a decision.

Has any of the 5 speed guys driven a 6 speed and feel like "Meh, don't really miss it"? or is the initial experience more like, "that was cool, wish I had that extra gear"?

The other thing I took away from most of the 6 speed swap threads is that it never seems like the swap is ever finished. There always seems to be a number of other issues that need to be completed and all the swap issues haven't been completely sorted out.

I'd love to hear from a 6 speed swapper who has completed all swap tasks, has everything working with no complaints, reporting what all the costs where and what configuration that used, and would do it again in a heart beat.

Newbie question here, everyone keeps referencing the acronym ETKA. What does this stand for? I have a friend who has the Bently manuals on DVD, but I don't know what ETKA is or stands for. Where do I find/buy it and how much is it?

BTDT, started a thread.

Love it, if unsure get one that has had the bearings done already.

rocketboy52 said:

Newbie question here, everyone keeps referencing the acronym ETKA. What does this stand for? I have a friend who has the Bently manuals on DVD, but I don't know what ETKA is or stands for. Where do I find/buy it and how much is it?

Click to expand...

Don't know exactly what it stands for but... it's the software that the VW parts people use to find part numbers for our cars. On last check, I decided it wasn't worth the effort to try and get it up and running. Too many caveats (computer type). For a rough equivalent, try the link below...

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/productSearch.aspx?&ukey_make=1066

Uberhare said:

BTDT, started a thread.

Love it, if unsure get one that has had the bearings done already.

Click to expand...

What does BTDT stand for?

I'm guessing you love your 6 speed? Do you have a tune or any other horsepower improvements on your TDI passat? I want to make sure that my meger 160hp passat will make enough juice to justify the super tall DQS 6 speed.

I have just completed 5 speed swap (FHN). Bought a full and very complete kit from Frans. I figured it was not worth my time to search junk yards for all the odds and ends. Super happy. Basically plug and play process well documented on this board.
Plan on 2-3 days, if doing it yourself. Gearing is just about perfect. My tranny goes in 1st on the move quite easy, but 2nd is low enough to roll around a corner at intersections. Highly recomendd.

rocketboy52 said:

What does BTDT stand for?

I'm guessing you love your 6 speed? Do you have a tune or any other horsepower improvements on your TDI passat? I want to make sure that my meger 160hp passat will make enough juice to justify the super tall DQS 6 speed.

Click to expand...

Been there done that

Define "super tall". I would not say the DQS is super tall over the FHN/GGB. Regardless the BHW will be fine with any of the gearboxes below.

This is well documented in other threads but one more time:

At 2000 RPM
DUK in 5th = ~ 61-62 MPH
FHN in 5th = ~ 64 MPH
DQS in 6th = ~ 66--67 MPH

From reports of owners, all are averaging about the same MPG, so no significant savings in fuel.

There is also the EEN gearbox that works just fine.

It will work but IIRC at 2000 rpm in 5th the EEN is going approx 58 mph.

I guess it doesn't bother me in terms of highway comfort going 75 MPH. Mileage is very good too for such a size car (GDE tune)!

6 speed is great for towing too. 5th is almost like splitting a gear from 6th on big hills with a heavy load.

I went back and forth with the 5 speed vs 6 speed. Part of the decision was that the extra cost of a 6 speed was mitigated by the fact that my GMR Auto is still good and worth money to sell it afterwards.

There was a thread that I made a while back comparing the final gear ratios and speeds for the different 5 and 6 speed transmissions, more for fun than any scientific purpose, as mentioned the Fuel Economy between the two transmissions is virtually identical.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=416889

From the practical side of things here are some numbers and facts about both.

5 Speed, as stated is virtually plug and play, well documented, with set upgrades and parameters. 180whp/350wtq should be held by the 5 speed. It is rated for less torque than the 6 speed, but it is a very solid transmission in its own right, provided one drives responsibly. To get above that power level you spend a lot more.
It is the more economical option and easier to perform as not as many parts need to be swapped out.

6 speed, the conversion is much more mature now than say 6-9 months ago, but there is still some final tweaking being done. There is a definitive set up, but requires more parts swapping with Euro parts, rebuilding the transmission (in most cases). A factory-esque setup requires all the 5 speed swap parts (but for the 6 speed transmission) + the starter, rebuild kit for the transmission, the DMF rebuild from south bend, a crank from a PD 130 engine, to reuse the OE pilot bearing etc. A SMF from Whitbread is in testing stages now which would allow the use of stock starter and crank, and this set up is also better for towing if that is done on a regular basis. That said, the built DMF should also hold any reasonable amount of power above the 5 speed.
The added cost is between $1000-$1500 more than a 5 speed depending on who is doing the swap.

^ Disagree on the crank - not required.

I sourced a Bronze oillite bushing that fits all of the right dimensions out of the UK for $15 shipped. I have had the transmission out since, and the input shaft and the bushing are just fine.

That is true, but my understanding was that the bronze oillite bushing life span was around 75-100k mi. Which is fine if you tear into the engine compartment every once in while, but for someone who is not so mechanically inclined or have the facilities in a nearby garage it might be better to do the factory set up.

the only time the trans input shaft turns in the pilot bushing is when the engine is running and the clutch is disengaged so it should last the life of the vehicle.

^agreed. The only time I could see this being an issue is if the car were in severe taxi service. Years ago, Pilot bushings were all bronze. changed them out at clutch time as a precaution, never had one fail on its own.

I am stilling running the stock crank, with stock pilot bearing. 70K on it now and 0 issues. We figure there is about 4-5mm of engagement.

^ I defer to these people who tear into these machines on a regular basis and have more experience.

I've decided to go with the FHN 5 speed unit, ordered from Frans. For the remaining parts, I'm working on buying lightly front end crashed 2001 GLX V6 gasser. If I've correctly remembered everything from the many threads I've watched, I should be able to get the shift, the tranny mount, the clutch cylinder and hoses, Axels and pedals all from this car. I'm guessing I'll need to buy a new clutch? The donor car I'm trying to get these parts from has 190,000 miles on her, so I'm guessing I'll replace the clutch while its out. Besides the minor wiring mods, and the ECS transmission delete am I missing any other major components for this swap?

clutch and brake switches and wiring to make cruise work, pilot bearing Shift knob , boot and trim (hopefully same interior as your car so the colour matches) . Make sure to grab the flexible fluid feed hose from the brake reservoir to the clutch master - it's $30 at the dealer if you have to go new, and the rubber is specific to brake fluid.

For the clutch, you might get lucky and score a fairly new one in the V6 - Otherwise there are a number of 228mm options out there from the Audi A4 1.8t.

I had to use 1.8t axles. Are the V6 axles the same? If not, they wull not work with the FHN. My clutch set also came from a 1.8t. If this isn't the same on the V6 then those won't work either. I think buying a V6 gasser as a donor only works well if you use the ttansmission too.

V6 has the correct size inner joints. It's the 1.8t you have to watch out for in 2000 and 2001. You have the best donor car for this conversion.