www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 1st, 2005, 18:39   #1
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Need troubleshooting help for my wife's Jetta - rental car is getting expensive.

Quick spec's: 2002 Jetta Wagon TDI 129,000 miles

My wife drove to Jacksonville and back - around 100mi round-trip. Upon returning home, her 2002 Jetta Wagon TDI just stopped running upon pulling into our driveway - talk about lucky. She said that it gave no indication of abnormal running prior to it stalling out.

I walked out to the car and tried to start it. It turned over well and I managed to get it to run for about two or three seconds, but it would stall out immediately. I was only able to do this twice before it quit for good.

Next, I started troubleshooting IAW the Haynes manual. Here's what I've done so far:
  • Checked fuel level - tank is at ~3/4
  • Checked battery terminals - ok
  • Replaced Relay 109 - what the heck, right? - no dice
  • Checked the battery - I actually bought a new battery from the dealership ...no dice
  • Checked timing belt - visual inspection was satisfactory (my timing belt changeout is due around 140,000 miles, since I last changed it at 60,000 miles)
  • Checked fuel filter - went ahead and replaced it making sure that it was full of fuel upon completion (done this before a couple of times)
  • Checked air shut-off valve mechanical & electrical
  • Checked cold-start valve electrically - ok
This was all about 5 days ago - super-busy at work (big military inspection). I finally got a PC up and running so that I could run VAG-COM program (side note: need an OSX version ) and plugged in my car.

The auto-scan yielded only one fault code:
Quote:
19561 Valve for Intake Manifold Flap (N239): Open or short to Ground P3105 - 35-00 - -
I checked my VW Service Manual CD (a ***** on a 640 x 480 monitor) and found that the following causes are
  • Wiring open circuit
  • Intake manifold change-over valve inoperative
Possible effects are "Harder engine stop jolts" - though, I don't notice this since I can't get the engine to run.

Does this all sound right so far? I'm going to try to do more tomorrow when I have some sun and less bugs (swamps suck).

I'm open for any advice or helpful hints.

Last edited by elt2jv; November 23rd, 2005 at 12:56.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2005, 19:08   #2
btcost
Veteran Member
 
btcost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boston, MA
Fuel Economy: using Fuelly. . 33ish for now
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Sta

could it be a clogged intake? clogged so bad that you can't even get it to start? I believe that I heard rumors of this occuring.

too bad a true inspection of the intake is a bit of a PITA with all the erg stuff still in place.

I would take off the EGR valve and see what's up.
btcost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:46   #3
Muggins
Veteran Member
 
Muggins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Barrie, Canada
Default Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

The diagnostic code seems to indicate the anti-shudder valve is stuck. Check it visually by removing the big hose from the intercooler to the EGR valve.

Just a thought.
Muggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2005, 09:15   #4
Bookerdog
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: St. Louis, MO
Fuel Economy: Not known yet
Default Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Ding Ding Ding, Muggins gets it. The anti shudder valve is a bit electrically actuated butterfly valve that sits in the intake air path just in front of the EGR Valve. Much like the EGR, it can get some gunk stuck in it. If it sticks closed, the engine will get NO AIR and will not run.

It is easy to check. Pull off the intake hose and look inside. If the flap is closed, get some try and move it by hand. If you can move it, try and use some carb cleaner sprayed on a rag to clean it up. Don't spray a whole bunch of cleaner into the area directly as that stuff will get sucked in and combusted the first time you start the engine.

It is possible that the actuator has failed. In that case you may need to buy a new one.
Bookerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2005, 14:37   #5
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Sta

Thanks for your help, guys.

I'm trapped at work and probably won't get to the car until Friday afternoon.

I'll keep you posted on my progress.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2005, 16:31   #6
redmondjp
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Fuel Economy: 41 mpg avg
Default Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Second that diagnosis.

My coworker has an '02 Jetta TDI which only had 35K miles on it when this same thing happened (probably mostly short-trip miles), resulting in a no-start.

You can also refer to the part as the anti-runaway valve as your engine gets up in miles
redmondjp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2005, 20:01   #7
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Ok, I just popped off the hose that goes from the intercooler to the EGR. Surprisingly, everything looks remarkably clean. No horror stories like you see in some of the posts about who's got the most gunked-up EGR. Should I go ahead and remove the EGR and intake manifold for a cleaning even though everything appears to be fine?

Also, when I popped the hose off, the change-over valve (N239) was fully open. I fiddled around with the change-over valve mechanism and it cycled freely - though, I really never knew how easily (or hard) it moved before.

Bookerdog mentioned above that it "is possible that the actuator has failed."

How can this be checked? I've already unplugged the electrical connector and checked the voltage going to the intake manifold change-over valve (anti-shudder) and it is in spec.

The next thing I checked was the EGR. I disconnected the vacuum line to the EGR valve and hooked up the ole Mity-Vac. I gave it a few pumps and noted the correct valve movement (up) and also noted that it dropped back down upon my releasing vacuum. So, it looks like that's not an issue.

I'm going to turn in for the night. I'll start the fun again in the morning.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2005, 18:10   #8
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Well, I ended up removing the EGR valve body out of curiosity since I expected everything to be much more cruddy than I was seeing. Sure enough, the engine-side of the EGR valve body and the intake manifold were very gunked-up.

I removed the intake manifold and cleaned both the EGR valve body and intake manifold. The removal/cleaning/reinstall took a long time, but I managed to get everything back together with no extra parts.

After refilling the coolant system to spec, I crossed-my fingers and tried to start the car ...no luck. It would crank like a pro, but the engine would just not roar to life.

I hooked up my VAG-COM unit and checked to see if my car could tell me where it hurts - no codes.

I'm really confused now and I need the guidance of some of the salty dogs on this board. If anyone has any feedback, I'd appreciate it greatly.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2005, 18:30   #9
Herm TDI
 
Herm TDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
Default Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Have your tryed a "positive fuel delivery check"?
Loosen the #1 injector "B-Nut" place a rag over the B-nut and have a helper crank the engine. You should be seeing fuel being expelled from around the B-nut.
If you do not have fuel at the B-nut then this tells you that you have a fuel delivery problem.

If no fuel at the injector B-nut check for the obvious..large air bubbles in the fuel supply line?...Then check the o-rings at the fuel filter?

Check the fuel cut-off valve. Have a helper turn the ignition key to "on/off" you should be able to hear/feel the fuel shut-off valve clicking.
Herm TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2005, 17:33   #10
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Herm TDI, I finally performed the "positive fuel delivery check" - fuel is being delivered to the cylinders.

...getting closer.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2005, 11:03   #11
runonbeer
Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
Fuel Economy: amazing/excellent/still pretty good
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Had your wife recently re-fueled? bad fuel?
runonbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2005, 11:57   #12
LWB053
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, FLA, USA
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

ELTs in St. Marys should stick to water chemistry and dosimetry! (Just kidding, of course...I'm an ex Nuke ET-turned shadetree diesel mechanic)

So, no new codes? With the large hose off the intake, hook your mity vac to the anti-shudder and check operation. You'll probably be better off to follow the line from the anti-shudder to the electrical actuator in the crook of the intake (you'll see what I'm talking about when you look at it).

When the camshaft turns the vacuum pump, vacuum builds in the reservior (the big ball). Spring pressure holds the anti-shudder open. When you turn off the key, the electrical actuator in that crook de-energizes and causes the vacuum reserve in the big ball to close the anti-shudder, immediately depriving the engine of air and causing a smooth shut-down. If the electrical operator isn't closing when you energize the car, vacuum will immediately close the anti-shudder, and the engine won't run. My guess is, either that electrical actuator has failed, or come unplugged. Maybe try plugging the vacuum line that runs to the anti-shudder and see if it'll crank...

Keith
LWB053 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2005, 11:57   #13
LWB053
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, FLA, USA
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Or hold the anti-shudder open while your wife tries to crank the car...
LWB053 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2005, 15:08   #14
elt2jv
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Fuel Economy: 45mpg
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Keith, easy on the ELTs. You know we're sensitive. Plus, I'm on shore duty - I need something to do.

I took your advice and did some experiments with the anti-shudder valve.

First, I removed the hose off the intake so that I could see the "resting" position of the anti-shudder valve - it was open. Next, I had my wife crank the car while I watched the anti-shudder valve. As expected, it did not shut during the cranking, so I know the engine was getting air.

The anti-shudder valve did not shut when my wife stopped cranking the engine, though. I suspect that this is due to engine not turning fast enough (i.e. more than starter RPM) to build up enough vacuum.

I've checked the anti-shudder valve with my MityVac and it operates easily - so I know it's not jammed-up.

So, after all of the experiments, I'm pretty sure that the following are not the problem:<ul type="square">[*]clogged fuel filter[*]clogged air filter[*]air in fuel line[*]failure of fuel pump to deliver fuel[*]clogged/severely reduced air intake[*]anti-shudder (N239) mech/electrical malfunction[/list]So, I'm going to the auto parts store to buy/borrow a compression testing kit. Perhaps there's not enough pressure in the cylinders to get started. I'll report my results when I'm done.

I guess the problem could also be the injectors not injecting. I have no idea how to test that, though.

Thanks, everyone, for your continuing assistance.
elt2jv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2005, 15:26   #15
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: central Ohio
Fuel Economy: 50/45/35
Default Re: Troubleshooting Help on 2002 Jetta - Won\'t Start

Yea that could be it. Couldn't you pull an injector, ground it and see if fuel comes out?
BobnOH is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.20781 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 124.87 Kb. compressed to 104.66 Kb. by saving 20.21 Kb. (16.18%)]