NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

roostre

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Location
Puget Sound, WA
TDI
2012 Golf TDI DSG
I was at Steve Glover's shop (TDI Guy) in Fort Worth all day yesterday and he had an '09 they picked up at auction real cheap with a blown HPFP. They pulled the fuel system apart and cleaned everything and re-assembled it with a new pump.. The car ran fine and was being driven for a few weeks before they sell it. Looks like a reasonable way to go if you blow your pump and VW fails to pick up the bill (which may be the case soon out of warranty).
I would like to see VW dealers sanction and adapt this method of repair when an HPFP fails instead of replacing everything fuel related. Then we would have a larger number of reference vehicles to verify that this approach is satisfactory.
 
Last edited:

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I would like to see VW dealers sanction and adapt this method of repair when an HPFP fails instead of replacing everything fuel related. Then we would have a larger number of reference vehicles to determine if this approach is satisfactory.
That probably will not happen as VW dealer mechanics don't "fix" problems, they just replace parts. More profit in that approach and less liability. Take, for instance, a leaking Bosch injection pump off an early ALH TDI. Dealer mechanics don't re-seal the pump, they replace it with a new one for $2500.

I would speculate that as these CR diesels go out of warranty and VW stops the fix for free program, Guru's will take the repair it approach. Even Oilhammer has suggested this.
 

fcatwo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Location
Washington
TDI
2009 JSW DSG
We own a 2009 JSW TDI with less than 30K on it and it occurs to me that VW will stop replacing HPFPs before ours blows. I've spent a couple of days researching alternative vehicles but unfortunately I've found nothing that turns me on -- I just like the JSW. I might spring for a PSW with it's slightly updated system if VW chose to offer one but that doesn't appear to be in the cards. My backup is to join AAA with a 200 mile tow plan and hope for the best. $7K is about half what it would cost to trade for something that I don't like as well so I'll gamble.

I do have a question: Has anyone tried using a hose/pump to drain five gallons or so of fuel periodically to check for water in their tank? We had a Cessna 172 a few years back and part of the pre-flight process was to always check for water. Doing so may have saved my bacon once as I found someone had stolen fuel and left the cap off for rain to do it's thing. Diesel being less volatile would make it safer than playing around with gasoline I would think. Every tank gets water in it eventually.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
If you're having to do a full FAA-compliant preflight on these cars just to keep them from blowing up... no. Just no.

Sell it, buy a 2002-2006 Jetta Wagon, and learn to drive stick (or, if you need a slushbox, stick to a 2004-2006).
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
They pulled the fuel system apart and cleaned everything
With lots of hot soapy water, ultrasonic solvent cleaning, gun barrel brushes and compressed air anything is possible.

VW and VW dealers are not the Bible. They "Replace Everything" because its a CYA move and dealers generally don't clean parts or repair parts or rebuild parts because it's not in their best interest to do so.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Although, look at amy1000's case, where they DID try cleaning the tank, and ended up redoing the job several times, replacing more and more of the fuel system in each try, and then it failed again, until they did the total replacement.
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
Although, look at amy1000's case, where they DID try cleaning the tank, and ended up redoing the job several times, replacing more and more of the fuel system in each try, and then it failed again, until they did the total replacement.

I have no explanation. Clean means clean. That means every fuel line and every component. I would probably replace both electric feed pumps since they seem hard to clean or impossible to clean. Having the injectors professionally rebuilt would be a good idea, too. Give me some boiling hot soapy water, a pressure washer and some compressed air and I'll have the fuel tank clean. Guaranteed.

There will be many success stories of people just replacing just the HPFP and maybe just a few other components with a total fuel system cleaning and living happily ever after.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Although, look at amy1000's case, where they DID try cleaning the tank, and ended up redoing the job several times, replacing more and more of the fuel system in each try, and then it failed again, until they did the total replacement.
But all the fuel from the tank is filtered. If metal from the tank is getting into the pump, it tells me there is a filtering issue going on.
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
Can't register non KS salvage in KS

> Sell it, buy a 2002-2006 Jetta Wagon, and learn to drive stick ...

Try to find one (wagon, manual). I search periodically. The most recent one I found was a 2006 PD. It was 1000 miles away, and the dealer wanted $10,000 for it, with an accident history and salvage title.

Stick PDs appear to be the pinnacle of the TDI art, and the market is beginning to reflect that.

CR value proposition:

  • Runs forever on reasonable maintenance: those days are over.
  • Runs worry-free on whatever diesel is at hand: those days are over.
  • Tolerates low levels of RUG contamination (yours or not): those days are over.
  • Safe to buy used: those days are so over (just see that "repair" described a few posts earlier - time bomb).
 

DasTeknoViking

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Location
Palatine IL
TDI
B4 TDi, A4 R32
> Sell it, buy a 2002-2006 Jetta Wagon, and learn to drive stick ...

Try to find one (wagon, manual). I search periodically. The most recent one I found was a 2006 PD. It was 1000 miles away, and the dealer wanted $10,000 for it, with an accident history and salvage title.

Stick PDs appear to be the pinnacle of the TDI art, and the market is beginning to reflect that.
Find a gasser Jetta and do you own swap, called a BKD. BKD is the pinnacle of PD tech. You can get a cheap 2.0L for next to nothing and with a BKD you are really up to something.

Doing a BKD swap in a few months on a MKV Rabbit.
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
> Sell it, buy a 2002-2006 Jetta Wagon, and learn to drive stick ...

Try to find one (wagon, manual). I search periodically. The most recent one I found was a 2006 PD. It was 1000 miles away, and the dealer wanted $10,000 for it, with an accident history and salvage title.

Stick PDs appear to be the pinnacle of the TDI art, and the market is beginning to reflect that.

CR value proposition:

  • Runs forever on reasonable maintenance: those days are over.
  • Runs worry-free on whatever diesel is at hand: those days are over.
  • Tolerates low levels of RUG contamination (yours or not): those days are over.
  • Safe to buy used: those days are so over (just see that "repair" described a few posts earlier - time bomb).
There is at least one wagon in the classified section here for sale with a PD transplant (ie into a 2002). There is also a 2004 PD wagon there as well with only 115(k) miles. So stop looking in Kansas and start looking in the classified section here.
 
Last edited:

Tarbe

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
USA
TDI
Touareg and Sportwagon Sold to VW
We own a 2009 JSW TDI with less than 30K on it and it occurs to me that VW will stop replacing HPFPs before ours blows. I've spent a couple of days researching alternative vehicles but unfortunately I've found nothing that turns me on -- I just like the JSW.

I have been saying this for years now.

At 152k miles, I still love my wagon and it is still on its original HPFP.

Be careful about your fueling (I personally prefer truck stops these days...seems like all the cross-contamination issues I personally hear about are at traditional "gas stations), add a little ASTM biodiesel to each tank, and motor on.

In another 100k miles, you will most likely be glad you kept your wagon.

This is almost like trying to decide if you want to sell a stock, after it has been beaten up by the market. Except the JSW TDI is like a good dividend paying stock that has been beaten up. If you elect to keep it and hope for the best recovery possible, at least it is paying you something while you wait!


Tim
 

amy1000

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Location
Doylestown PA
TDI
2010 jetta
Wow interesting post on the mbworld forum, poor JenB.

Here is something that I picked up off the thread that may be helpful to readers on this site:

This is an internal Shell document to retailers regarding this issue. I think it is a good read for any of us that use diesel:

http://www.shellsource.com/NR/rdonly...onDocFINAL.pdf

What I took away from this is that if the dispenser is pumping slowly, that is a huge red flag to stop pumping. Also note, the retailers are not instructed to clean their tanks until they measure 1 inch of water at the bottom of the tank.

Read more: http://mbworld.org/forums/gl-class-...em-corrosion-big-problem-3.html#ixzz2Gw8uuKSb


sorry link to the shellsource is disabled...but still a helpful tip from the original poster.
 
Last edited:

luked

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal Edition, 2013 JSW TDI SE
Wow interesting post on the mbworld forum, poor JenB.

Here is something that I picked up off the thread that may be helpful to readers on this site:

This is an internal Shell document to retailers regarding this issue. I think it is a good read for any of us that use diesel:

http://www.shellsource.com/NR/rdonly...onDocFINAL.pdf

What I took away from this is that if the dispenser is pumping slowly, that is a huge red flag to stop pumping. Also note, the retailers are not instructed to clean their tanks until they measure 1 inch of water at the bottom of the tank.

Read more: http://mbworld.org/forums/gl-class-...em-corrosion-big-problem-3.html#ixzz2Gw8uuKSb


sorry link to the shellsource is disabled...but still a helpful tip from the original poster.
Shell link isn't working for me. Is a login necessary?
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
They need to include a lottery ticket with each gallon

DasTeknoViking: > Find a gasser Jetta and do your own swap, called a BKD...

I'm not equipped to do that. If I were, I'd have already put a 5-speed in my ALH and called it good. The regional guy who does this sort of work doesn't do the hunter-gatherer part (finding donor parts), and I don't have the time.

Meanwhile, back at the thread topic, I was just looking at the 2012-11 letter VW sent to NHTSA. Here's an interesting section, from page 30:
"827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.

In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186 of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not have been properly lubricated.

59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required. 22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570μm and may have caused increased wear.

4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% / 2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.

79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading to failure.

252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible gasoline content.
"

Yes, US diesel, at the station pump, is frequently way out of spec and/or contaminated. What's unsaid, of course, is that TDIs prior to the CRs had, and still have, no problem running on this bilge.

The CR situation appears to be due to a perfect storm of:
a. tighter requirements on vehicles, compounded by
b. a market roll to ULSD, which included
c. having to add lubricity agent at the terminal, plus
d. some states mandating biodiesel, sometimes more than 5%
VW and Botch designed to the ASTM spec, and not the US reality.
4 years later, the problem still festers.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
DasTeknoViking: > Find a gasser Jetta and do your own swap, called a BKD...

I'm not equipped to do that. If I were, I'd have already put a 5-speed in my ALH and called it good. The regional guy who does this sort of work doesn't do the hunter-gatherer part (finding donor parts), and I don't have the time.

Meanwhile, back at the thread topic, I was just looking at the 2012-11 letter VW sent to NHTSA. Here's an interesting section, from page 30:
"827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.

In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186 of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not have been properly lubricated.

59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required. 22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570μm and may have caused increased wear.

4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% / 2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.

79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading to failure.

252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible gasoline content.
"

Yes, US diesel, at the station pump, is frequently way out of spec and/or contaminated. What's unsaid, of course, is that TDIs prior to the CRs had, and still have, no problem running on this bilge.

The CR situation appears to be due to a perfect storm of:
a. tighter requirements on vehicles, compounded by
b. a market roll to ULSD, which included
c. having to add lubricity agent at the terminal, plus
d. some states mandating biodiesel, sometimes more than 5%
VW and Botch designed to the ASTM spec, and not the US reality.
4 years later, the problem still festers.
This is the single best post I've seen on the issue to date. And the Shell PDF link is just :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Holy mother fueler!!! It's absolutely unbelievable that the fuel distribution in this country is so third-world primitive!! Totally unconscionable. :mad: Can fueling stations not afford a water trap on the output?! It's NOT rocket science to manage tanks and water. And 'Botch(!)' and VW absolutely know this--they are both willfully professionally negligent.:mad::mad:
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Note that Shell/Motiva does not take responsibility for station fuel management problems with its disclaimer. Remember who operates these stations (lessees) and guess what their incentive is to be extremely diligent on spending big sums of cash (theirs) on tank cleaning.

We had a Valero station here that had a slow pump of D2 for over a month before they did something about it. I complained several times to the attendant. A lot of good that did.

This just confirms why it is a large risk to buy a CR diesel in the states. As I have said in other posts, the refiners are doing a decent job making diesel, but once you get to a retail outlet, the risk of fuel problems goes up significantly.

If I had one of these CR diesels, I would buy fuel at a high volume truck stop.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Hadn't really thought of this before, but here's what just hit me as I read the first part of the Shell memo.

The associated problems are worse since switching to USLD. That indicates that the surfactants (dish soap type gunk that is natually in crude oil and helps lubricity) that is stripped out with the sulfur and helping keep the water in suspension while in the storage tank and our fuel tanks. The sulfur was acting as a biocide/mildewcide/fungicide and not allowing stuff to grow in the tanks, or at least keeping it in control in most situations. All of the current on market additives are still not as good as the original material that is now part of the waste stream from the refineries.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Hadn't really thought of this before, but here's what just hit me as I read the first part of the Shell memo.

The associated problems are worse since switching to USLD. That indicates that the surfactants (dish soap type gunk that is natually in crude oil and helps lubricity) that is stripped out with the sulfur and helping keep the water in suspension while in the storage tank and our fuel tanks. The sulfur was acting as a biocide/mildewcide/fungicide and not allowing stuff to grow in the tanks, or at least keeping it in control in most situations. All of the current on market additives are still not as good as the original material that is now part of the waste stream from the refineries.
Removed sulfur and other compounds are not typically waste streams at the refineries. Generally, material from the sulfur reduction units (Claus Units) during gasoline/distillate processing is collected and sold in bulk. Typically, the sulfur compounds go into medical formulations or are sold to overseas chemical companies. Most high sulfur crude oil end processing is done in a "coker" when elemental sulfur is removed for sale.
 

kydsid

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Location
Texas
TDI
2012 Passat
If I had one of these CR diesels, I would buy fuel at a high volume truck stop.
What good is that when the auto pumps and truck pumps use different tanks?

I've stopped using truck stops as they are higher priced and go to the cheapest source instead. this is almost never a truck stop,and almost always where the Cummins, powerstroke, and duramax guys are fueling.

turnover is the key and truck stops sadly are no guarantee of turnover.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I've stopped using truck stops as they are higher priced and go to the cheapest source instead. this is almost never a truck stop,and almost always where the Cummins, powerstroke, and duramax guys are fueling.

turnover is the key and truck stops sadly are no guarantee of turnover.
Well, dont' the Cummins, powerstroke, and duramax guys have water filters on their trucks?

Yes, turnover is the key. Go sit at a busy truck stop and see the traffic.
 

luked

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal Edition, 2013 JSW TDI SE
Note that Shell/Motiva does not take responsibility for station fuel management problems with its disclaimer. Remember who operates these stations (lessees) and guess what their incentive is to be extremely diligent on spending big sums of cash (theirs) on tank cleaning.
We had a Valero station here that had a slow pump of D2 for over a month before they did something about it. I complained several times to the attendant. A lot of good that did.
This just confirms why it is a large risk to buy a CR diesel in the states. As I have said in other posts, the refiners are doing a decent job making diesel, but once you get to a retail outlet, the risk of fuel problems goes up significantly.
If I had one of these CR diesels, I would buy fuel at a high volume truck stop.
All pumps should have the phone number of whomever the local regular is. You should be calling that, anything else is a waste of time.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Just try finding one of those Pilot etc trucking centers in New England. Rare indeed.
yeah, you are probably right. Now that you mention it, I don't recall any big truck stops in all the 35 years I lived in Connecticut. They are like the wallpaper around here though.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Removed sulfur and other compounds are not typically waste streams at the refineries. Generally, material from the sulfur reduction units (Claus Units) during gasoline/distillate processing is collected and sold in bulk. Typically, the sulfur compounds go into medical formulations or are sold to overseas chemical companies. Most high sulfur crude oil end processing is done in a "coker" when elemental sulfur is removed for sale.
I actually didn't think about what happened to the other products downstream, I should know as a chemist I should know better.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I actually didn't think about what happened to the other products downstream, I should know as a chemist I should know better.
Refineries are like tuna canning plants (which I happen to be familiar with :D). The raw material is all used for something beneficial if possible. Wastes cost money to get rid of.

In a typical products refinery, even heavy tank bottoms are sent back through the crude unit after tank cleaning or landfarmed onsite (unless they contain lead (TEL)). But since TEL is no longer used, very little hazardous waste is generated.
 

kydsid

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Location
Texas
TDI
2012 Passat
Well, dont' the Cummins, powerstroke, and duramax guys have water filters on their trucks?

Yes, turnover is the key. Go sit at a busy truck stop and see the traffic.
afaik the Ford's don't.

and I have watched at several truck stops. most have low auto diesel usage unless they have rv pumps, so I look for those. does no good to see otr trucks fueling when the tanks are different.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I have used the truck pump islands from time to time, but I prefer not to. Since I don't have a CR diesel, it's not a big deal where I fill up. Where I live, there is a lot of construction going on and even the branded stations with one diesel pump are pretty busy all the time.
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Refineries are like tuna canning plants (which I happen to be familiar with :D). The raw material is all used for something beneficial if possible. Wastes cost money to get rid of.

In a typical products refinery, even heavy tank bottoms are sent back through the crude unit after tank cleaning or landfarmed onsite (unless they contain lead (TEL)). But since TEL is no longer used, very little hazardous waste is generated.
Refineries produce from the lightest to the heaviest:gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, asphalt, and coke. The asphalt is used with rock and sand to make the black pavement you see on roads and coke is either used to refine steel or treated with heat to make natural gas.
 
Top