Netflix Special on VW - “Hard NOx”

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Yes, I hear what you're saying. I don't mean to indicate yourself in particular in my comment. I was attempting to refer to the numerous individuals online who have commented on different news articles because animal testing was involved. I never saw so many people commenting on Dieselgate until it involved the lab animal testing.

The test results stand independent of the conclusions drawn as to whether Clean Diesel on the road is a real thing or a good thing or not. The test results were likely gathered and logged in accordance with the standards of these sorts of studies. The results would have been real and good. Any conclusions drawn from the study as to how beneficial or neutral VW TDIs were to the health of animals and humans would have been what was scrutinized and found lacking.
The study was worthless, invalid, and therefore unethical . It wasn't published- would've, could've, should've doesn't change the fact that the data is worthless. The German auto manufacturers themselves are using adjectives like abhorrent, abominable, disgusting, etc. to describe the study they commissioned. No self respecting scientist would want anything to do with that fraudulent study.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
The study was worthless, invalid, and therefore unethical . It wasn't published- would've, could've, should've doesn't change the fact that the data is worthless. The German auto manufacturers themselves are using adjectives like abhorrent, abominable, disgusting, etc. to describe the study they commissioned. No self respecting scientist would want anything to do with that fraudulent study.
Yes, of course it wasn't published. The manipulated variable made it so that correct conclusions could not be made. You're getting some things mixed up, however:

1) Reality is yet reality. The observations recorded in the study were real and therefore had inherent worth.

2) The study was judged to be in accordance with ethics prior to the beginning, and then never repudiated by the oversight bodies. The undisclosed defeat device would not per se have rendered the judgment of ethical protocols void.

3) The study was not fraudulent. You said yourself it was not published, so fraud is not even under consideration.

4) Marketing language is often rhetorical. Even if the auto makers are now attempting to distance themselves from the study or distance themselves from VW, the language has no impact on the worth, ethics or reality observed in the study. :)
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Yes, of course it wasn't published. The manipulated variable made it so that correct conclusions could not be made. You're getting some things mixed up, however:



4) Marketing language is often rhetorical. Even if the auto makers are now attempting to distance themselves from the study or distance themselves from VW, the language has no impact on the worth, ethics or reality observed in the study. :)
The fact that the study is invalid is what makes the data useless. It's also questionable how impartial Lovelace Respiratory Research was given how much access VW was allowed during the study, and how VW was allowed to set up the auto dyno apparatus.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
The fact that the study is invalid is what makes the data useless. It's also questionable how impartial Lovelace Respiratory Research was given how much access VW was allowed during the study, and how VW was allowed to set up the auto dyno apparatus.
I hear ya. I am glad someone made this documentary. I just wish it were less inflammatory and biased. It was nice that someone took all the time to interview people with inside knowledge of all the doings and goings on and compile it in one place.
 

BrBa

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2010 Jetta - so long friend!
One very interesting point that was simply made in passing: Dr. Ayala, Deputy Director of CARB claimed during the documentary interview that CARB was conducting emissions testing on and correspondence with VW regarding TDI Clean Diesels for 60 months. To my recollection he said it while conveying the information that CARB kept finding that the TDIs being tested failed to meet the emissions levels they certified with the EPA.

60 months. That's five years. That information really does not conform with CARB beginning testing and correspondence with VW in 2014 as a result of the U of WV study. The EPA Notice of Violation of the CAA was submitted to VW in Sept. 2015. If you roll the clock back 60 months, that's 2010. So VW was snowing CARB since 2010? and Why would CARB put up with that?

-- Nicole
Dr. Ayala said 16 months, not 60. So the 2014 timeline is correct.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Um...facts or propaganda that VW lied again and again to the regulators to cover up their brazen disregard for our national laws? And all for a few dollars per car, and a few more dollars in holding down warranty payouts. They could have legally solved every challenge presented by the emissions regulations, but in case after case, they chose not to.

.
VW aren't saints but also put blame where its due, the others Automakers sure as hell aren't Angels either.
 

Rico567

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
VW aren't saints but also put blame where its due, the others Automakers sure as hell aren't Angels either.

But the subject under discussion in the documentary (and this thread) is Dieselgate, which means VW. It doesn't somehow validate VW, or lessen their offense, to say someone else broke the same law. That would be the same thing as saying that the mass murder committed by Germany in WWII is somehow less criminal if we consider those committed by Turkey in WWI, the Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
Dr. Ayala said 16 months, not 60. So the 2014 timeline is correct.
I heard 60, and the subtitles read 60. It did not sound like 16 to me. I am not arguing what you heard, just telling you what I heard.
 

BrBa

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2010 Jetta - so long friend!
I heard 60, and the subtitles read 60. It did not sound like 16 to me. I am not arguing what you heard, just telling you what I heard.
Subtitles are often wrong. It does sound like 60 because of his accent, but if you replay it and listen closely you will see he says 16.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It sounds like there was still pressure to publish the junk science study in 2017. VW says LRRI wanted it published, and LRRI says it was VW pushing for publication. Personally, I think they're both as dirty as the air they were forcing upon the test subjects. Jake McDonald of LRRI claims he was unaware of the VW emissions scandal until very recently (sometime in 2017). Either he's the worlds dumbest scientist, or he's full of horsesh!t. I smell a steaming pile of it.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I never saw so many people commenting on Dieselgate until it involved the lab animal testing.
Then you must have missed the whole dieselgate thread.

As a scientist, I understand the time and need for live animal testing. It just the hype of the show that have sensationalized this topic out of proportion. Where I went to college, we had a rat lab that bred rats to be susceptible to different health aliments. Need to test for tumors on kidneys? We have a rat for you! Is that ethical? It really depends on your overall beliefs on animal testing. You summed it all up in post 62.
 
Last edited:

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
But the subject under discussion in the documentary (and this thread) is Dieselgate, which means VW. It doesn't somehow validate VW, or lessen their offense, to say someone else broke the same law. That would be the same thing as saying that the mass murder committed by Germany in WWII is somehow less criminal if we consider those committed by Turkey in WWI, the Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia.
However, the study was also funded by BMW and Daimler. All of these companies have been involved at some point with what finally ended up as VW's dieselgate. We can't exclude them from the discussion just because VW made the ultimate decision to not use the co-developed engineering.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
Then you must have missed the whole dieselgate thread.

As a scientist, I understand the time and need for live animal testing. It just the hype of the show that have sensationalized this topic out of proportion. Where I went to college, we had a rat lab that bred rats to be susceptible to different health aliments. Need to test for tumors on kidneys? We have a rat for you! Is that ethical? It really depends on your overall beliefs on animal testing. You summed it all up in post 62.
I get where you're coming from, but I didn't miss the Dieselgate thread. I readily admit that there were a number of posters in this forum and others discussing Dieselgate, but I do not remember there being the same stir on the internet in general, as a few days ago regarding the NOx testing on NHPs. It seemed most of the discussion of Dieselgate as far as the implications of the undisclosed emissions system defeat device was isolated to the few TDI forums there are online.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
Subtitles are often wrong. It does sound like 60 because of his accent, but if you replay it and listen closely you will see he says 16.
I went back as you suggested and listened to Dr. Ayala, several times, at 44:54 in the Hard NOx documentary and I cannot read "16" on his lips or hear "16" in the audio. I'm not reporting back to be argumentative, just letting you know is all.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I get where you're coming from, but I didn't miss the Dieselgate thread. I readily admit that there were a number of posters in this forum and others discussing Dieselgate, but I do not remember there being the same stir on the internet in general, as a few days ago regarding the NOx testing on NHPs. It seemed most of the discussion of Dieselgate as far as the implications of the undisclosed emissions system defeat device was isolated to the few TDI forums there are online.
You must not be an avid Jalopnik reader. Can't blame you- some of the articles are garbage. This one on the LRRI study isn't too bad. Read the comment section if you really want a laugh or two:

https://jalopnik.com/ten-cartoon-watching-monkeys-breathed-diesel-fumes-in-s-1822432802
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
I was a bit horrified when I watched the documentary and heard the very idea of testing exhaust on primates or humans to prove a point about diesel NOx not being harmful to breath... Or at least that's what I assume was their aim.

Then I had to stop and think for a second. Oh wait. I breath that in all day every day. And particulates, because I still fix mostly older TDIs that predate DPFs! ****, maybe they should just do studies on technicians, they have a big enough pool of them in their dealer network. Speaking from experience, they run cars indoors all the time and breath the fumes!

Then I went back and remembered some reading I did. One was even from the EPA on the subject of NOx. Another a separate article about the breakdown of diesel NOx into individual components and their amounts... NO, NO2, NO3 etc. Apparently, the vast majority of diesel exhaust is just plain old NO. NO is pretty harmless. Hell, if your body isn't naturally producing NO in your veins via your endothelial cells, you get plaque clogging your veins eventually causing a serious health crisis.

The amount of really harmful NO2 and other forms of NOx is very minimal in diesel exhaust. The only problem is when NO is lingering in the right atmospheric conditions, it can combine with VOCs/NMOGs (which come from gas engines in much larger quantities than diesels) in the local air and do a chemical reaction with sunlight and low winds, relatively high ambient temperatures (conditions often present in many areas of California) and cycle into O3 and NO2 among other unhealthy forms of NOx.

So, looking at it that way, realistically no harm would have actually been done to the test subjects, despite the slightly inaccurate portrayal (c'mon, they even used a gasser Ford on the dyno and a mk4 Beetle, which never came with a "clean diesel").

Also, I hear today that California is now going to sue places that sell coffee for not having Prop 65 signs. For those unaware, Prop 65 warnings basically just say the facility you're entering contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer... Which is basically everything at this point, according to the state.

Some days I wish I could replace all those signs with more accurate wording: "WARNING: The number one cause of death is being alive!"

And if you still think forcing primates to breath diesel exhaust is bad, maybe you should be nicer to the person turning wrenches on your car because he does it all day every day and still soldiers on. Bring him/her a beer or something. I hear alcohol does wonders for flushing NOx out of your system ;)
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I make a habit of bringing a couple brewskis for the tech on the rare occasion that I'm not turning my own wrenches :).

The LRRI study should have never gotten approval by the oversight organizations. The study was designed purely as a marketing/PR(brilliant PR!) tool to counteract real scientific studies by the W.H.O. showing that diesel exhaust is a carcinogen. That doesn't rise anywhere near to the level that justifies experimentation on monkeys(or humans). I guess the VW ads with the old woman holding her white scarf up to the tailpipe of the "clean diesel" for five seconds wasn't convincing enough for the car buying public.

That which is unethical in Germany is also unethical in the US, N. Korea, Antarctica, and on the moon. Cultural norms may differ- but we should all strive to live by the golden rule.
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
The (other) really crazy part of the disgraceful LRRI study is that the twenty year old diesel truck actually turned out to produce exhaust that was less harmful to the test subjects than the new "clean diesel" !! I bet the automakers stopped pushing for publication pretty quickly after they caught wind of that development.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/suppressed-rigged-diesel-tests-monkeys-showed-new-cars-harmful/amp/
That article says more inflammation was observed in the test subjects subjected to the clean diesel, which I find hard to believe and see no link to where in the study that was observed.

When I work on a diesel that has no catalytic converter, I definitely get that scratchy back of throat feeling and can even feel it in my nostrils. The DPF equipped diesels all seem pretty pleasant to breath in comparison in my experience...
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I'm a bit surprised by the results as well. Though the powerstroke should have had a catalyst- just no dpf. My guess is that while the powerstroke would produce far more particulates, the NO2 concentration must have been much lower. Sort of makes sense considering it's over 3.5 times the displacement of the tdi with only 1.5 times the power output.

The responses from the LRRI researchers clearly show that they were very aware of what the objective of their study was.
 
Last edited:

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
The (other) really crazy part of the disgraceful LRRI study is that the twenty year old diesel truck actually turned out to produce exhaust that was less harmful to the test subjects than the new "clean diesel" !! I bet the automakers stopped pushing for publication pretty quickly after they caught wind of that development.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/suppressed-rigged-diesel-tests-monkeys-showed-new-cars-harmful/amp/
I have heard sources say that pre-dpf exhaust is less harmful because the particles are large and easy expelled by the human body. Small ultrafine particles what gassers and DPF equipped diesel put out is the dangerous stuff.
 

BrBa

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Location
Las Vegas
TDI
2010 Jetta - so long friend!
I went back as you suggested and listened to Dr. Ayala, several times, at 44:54 in the Hard NOx documentary and I cannot read "16" on his lips or hear "16" in the audio. I'm not reporting back to be argumentative, just letting you know is all.
No worries I understand what you're saying. If you rewind to a couple minutes prior to Dr. Ayala's interview, the documentary mentions CARB was unaware of any emissions issues with TDIs prior to John German's presentation of the WVU case study at the April 2014 conference in San Diego. Following the presentation, CARB then did their own testing with the Rover/PEMS equipment and confirmed the validity of the WVU study.

16 months after May 2014 would be September 2015, which is when Stuart Johnson admitted to Dr. Ayala that VW was using the defeat device.

For what it's worth, I can only hear Dr. Ayala say "16" on the Samsung widescreen. I hear "60" on every other device. The incorrect subtitles certainly don't help.
 

mjwilson

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2005
Location
Oakdale, CA
TDI
2015 Passat SE (bought back 11/28/2016)..adieu
Very wisely said, Matt. Your thoroughness with the science echoes your thoroughness and skill with TDI's. I've been out of the TDI world for a while. I sold my 2004 Jetta when I received a 2015 Passat TDI SE as a gift! I used this during my entire year doing a chaplain residency at John Muir in Concord. Then dieselgate happened and the offer was just too good. I now have a 2010 CC and a 2014 GLI. Great cars but I really miss my '04. I had nearly 290,000 mi. when I sold it and recommended he contact you for the 300K timing belt.

Hope you and Dee are well. Miss all you guys!

Mike
 
Last edited:

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
That article says more inflammation was observed in the test subjects subjected to the clean diesel, which I find hard to believe and see no link to where in the study that was observed.
When I work on a diesel that has no catalytic converter, I definitely get that scratchy back of throat feeling and can even feel it in my nostrils. The DPF equipped diesels all seem pretty pleasant to breath in comparison in my experience...
It wasn't observed in the study. The article is quoting Bild, which is a German tabloid. The TDI would have been in cheat mode, anyway; the only car "gassing" the monkeys was the Ford.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I watched the episode yesterday. Seems like a great bunch of hype especially when they flash to the beginnings of VW in the first five minutes. I liked the guy in the beginning talking about driving his death machine. There was no mention of how much cleaner these cars are then their predecessors. I also liked how they always showed a big cloud of exhaust coming from the tailpipe. I'd be really concerned about my CR diesel if it was continually rolling coal.

I thought the monkey part was extremely over hyped. And the pictures of the supplied cars. Could they have found a rattier Ford? I didn't think a diesel was available in the first generation convertible new beetle.

The biggest question I've had since all this hit the fan is what are the approved gassers like? Do they meet the emissions regulations in all categories at all times? I know that's not the same as installing a cheat but still should have for the scientific baseline.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I have heard sources say that pre-dpf exhaust is less harmful because the particles are large and easy expelled by the human body. Small ultrafine particles what gassers and DPF equipped diesel put out is the dangerous stuff.
That may be true, but I think NO2 was the bigger issue in this particular study. Smaller, more highly strung diesel engines have greater cylinder pressures and temperatures, which leads to a greater ratio of NO2 to NO in the NOx emissions. Since temperature plays a key role in oxidizing NO into NO2, after treatment devices like dpf's and catalysts that raise temperatures of the exhaust stream significantly can oxidize the less harmful NO into the more harmful NO2. This study was questionable from the very beginning, and not published though, so you really have to take any results with several grains of salt.
 

Miss_Athanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Location
Kansas
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen 6-speed manual; 2016 3500 Ram Tradesman 4X4 6.7L Cummins 6-Speed manual
I also liked how they always showed a big cloud of exhaust coming from the tailpipe. I'd be really concerned about my CR diesel if it was continually rolling coal.
This had me in stitches.
 
Top