Koni Reds vs. FSD's

TDI_Convert

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Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Location
N. Central Indiana, USA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 5 sp., 2003, Silver/Grey Int.
I need to upgrade this Spring. The 2003 Jetta Wagon will be turning 100K, and it's time for a facelift. (leglift?) I plan on keeping the stock springs, but adding a rear sway bar (still undecided on which one). I don't want to change the ride height, but I do want to reduce the understeer.

What's the main difference between the FSD's and the Reds in regards to ride and handling? Enough to justify the $200.00 difference in price between the two for a car that never sees the track?

I do haul 1,000# or more on occasion.

Thanks,
TDI_Convert
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I had Reds in my '02 wagon for 40K and now have had FSDs for about 15K. The Reds ride great, handle fine, and are very predictable. The FSDs are a bit firmer, handle much better, but may sacrifice a bit of ride. And sometimes when my wagon was loaded up the Reds felt a bit soft in the rear: not so the FSDs. The rears are pressurized and it helps.

My vote: FSDs if you drive hard, Reds if you don't.
 

BlueCTTDi

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Sep 26, 2005
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Manchester, CT
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2004 Golf GLS (PD) - Indigo Blue
I second that.. I've had both, and MUCH, MUCH prefer the FSD's.

granted, I have a Golf and not a JWagon, but in my case the ride is actually better with the FSD's as well - especially on the not-so-smooth roads in New England..

Don't get me wrong, the Reds were a big improvement over stock and I was pleased with them, but the FSD's are even better. Well worth the $200 difference IMO.
 

Varkias

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Jan 22, 2006
Location
Turners Falls, MA
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'02 Golf TDI
Indigo is also on stock springs (last I knew) and i've been in his car a few times, both with the reds and the FSD's. His car is amazing, handling is just about perfect and the ride is great. I'm getting the FSD's this spring as well.
 

silverbox

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Jul 24, 2005
Location
Halifax Nova Scotia
TDI
jetta wagon 2003 silver
I also have a jetta wagon and stock springs with FSD's they have been in the car since November 2005, i love them. I'm sure the reds or the yellows would be fine. But can only confirm the ride of the FSD"s is great.
I have a very mild rear sway bar 23mm H&R Smooth and supple we have real bad roads up here. IBW has the shine rear bar in his wagon, the other end of the mild to strong continuum He speaks highly of it.
If you go with the FSD's i would reccomend installing the VW 10 mm spacer in the front.
 

BlueCTTDi

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2004 Golf GLS (PD) - Indigo Blue
good point, i forgot to note I am running the shine bar... makes a HUGE difference as well.
 

silverbox

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Jul 24, 2005
Location
Halifax Nova Scotia
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jetta wagon 2003 silver
The spacer is VW part#1J0 412 311 below is a link to a photo (Thanks Peter Pyce)
The spacer lifts the front end 10 mm which helps make up for the lift you get in the rear from the high presure rear in the mkiv FSD kit.
The added hight helps the overall geometry.

Ahttp://www.peterpyce.com/Shine/Sapcers_VWA4_Suspension_001.jpg
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Stock springs, Shine rear bar. Comfort is great: firmer than stock, but never harsh. The Shine bar makes all the difference in turn in and balance. The car feels much lighter and more nimble than stock and although the FSDs contribute to that, the bar is amazing. I don't feel any comfort penalty with the bar, and despite what you might read on vortex, the car does not oversteer.

Mike, I'm glad you're liking the FSDs.
 

pdxgrease

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Oct 14, 2004
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SE Portland
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none
Yeah I had FSD's on my last 02 tdi and really liked em. I plan on going that route again, but want to put on a good bar too. So its sounding more and more like shine is the ticket. Indigo how much work is involved drilling and installing the shine bar?

Also when installing new dampers like fsd's.. what else should be replaced at the same time... like bushings and strut mounts and whatnot? Be specific if you guys can. On my 02 jetta i only did the dampers and there were alot of creaks and stuff that killed me. I should have replaced something else that was old but dont know what.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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On an '04 I'd just replace struts, strut mounts, and shocks. I wouldn't do the shock mounts unless you have over 100K on the car, but that's my opinion. Sway bar bushings often are creaky but you can replace them anytime.

I'm going further on my '02 at 150K and putting in new control arms with TT bushings in the Spring, I've got TT rear subframe bushings, and may even try to find a TT roadster subframe with the outriggers for the braces. My objective: Keep the platform stiff and make the suspension soft so it doesn't skid across bumps, punish me and the car, but still maintains geometry.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
Does anyone know if the Shine rear swaybar is available for a B4?
 

PDJetta

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Northern Virginia
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'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
The Shine Sway Bar looks really neat. Is it beneficial for a Jetta or for a Golf, or both? It seems most of the discussion is for Golfs.
--Nate
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Same difference. I have them on two Jettas, an A3 and an A4. It's great on both.
 

NathanMSL

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Alvin, Texas
TDI
Golf, 2005, PD100, white
I've heard numerous reports of the shine bar breaking. My personal mechanic recomends the Neuspeed bar which is what we are both running.

I am running the Koni FSD + Eibach Pro-kit System, and I'm loving it.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
Peter, Is it the same bar for the A3 and A4, do you know? I'm unsure of any specific dimensional differences between the rear beam on each, my guess it that the bar might be universal to both and to the B4 as well. I'm trying to plan a future suspension upgrade for my B4V.
 

fitzski

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Oct 13, 2004
Location
Ottawa
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Uh... hmm... Well, none...
NathanMSL said:
I've heard numerous reports of the shine bar breaking. My personal mechanic recomends the Neuspeed bar which is what we are both running.

I am running the Koni FSD + Eibach Pro-kit System, and I'm loving it.
A handful of early Shine bars had some issues when installed with stock suspension, allowing more flex than the bar was intended to withstand. (The bar was developed as an integrated component of Shine's "real street" complete suspension kit.) The bar was revised accordingly, and Dick Shine stands behind his product.

Also, be sure not to confuse any Shine reliability issues with those of the similar in design but much cheaper O-bar.

More traditional RSB's have issues as well - routine replacement of worn/squeaky bushings, rusted end links, and the loss of ground clearance are all considerations.
 
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NathanMSL

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Golf, 2005, PD100, white
A handful of early Shine bars had some issues when installed with stock suspension, allowing more flex than the bar was intended to withstand. (The bar was developed as an integrated component of Shine's "real street" complete suspension kit.)
Good point, about the shine bar and the stock suspension. Is this still the case, that the shine bar will break if not used with the appropriate springs and struts? Things will break if used incorrectly no matter what it is.


More traditional RSB's have issues as well - routine replacement of worn/squeaky bushings, rusted end links, and the loss of ground clearance are all considerations.
Very true, the neuspeed takes away some clearance right at the wheel due to its attachment method.

The point is, to each his own. Make sure to choose your components wisely and take into consideration all variables. :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I've had my Shine bar in my car with stock springs (HDs, Reds, now FSDs) since about 85K. And mine is the 'old' less sturdy style. So after 60K it's fine. And I am not the most gentle driver. I had a conversation about this with Eli at Shine while he was still there and I think he said they replaced 2 bars, but swapped out some others that hadn't broken because they found a welding defect in one batch. Since then they've made the bar a lot stronger. I wouldn't worry about it.
 

peter pyce

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Joined
Nov 6, 2001
IndigoBlueWagon said:
....and despite what you might read on vortex, the car does not oversteer......

There are situations at which it will actually over steer and quite badly and quite suddenly! It depends what you do with that car. and no matter how good you are, there are panic situations which you can not predict, neither prevent, at which the car is asked to perform at its limits (or beyond) and that is where it gets really scary with heavy rear bar and novice enthusiast driver. Driving a car with heavy rear bar requires very good training and reflexes, especially if the road conditions are not optimal (read: rain, snow, not smooth surface on mountain roads, etc).


It is easy to "upgrade" the car, but how many are up to the task to drive an "upgraded" car?


This post is just so whoever reads here, thinks about the other side of the story. And in case your car surprises you one day, you can't say "Hey, nobody told me so!".....
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Good points, Peter. The wagon did surprise me once, on a sandy/icy decreasing radius offramp. But I really can't think of a situation where it has since (that was three years ago). Even on the track it took some playing with tire pressures to get the rear to rotate and keep the front from scrubbing.

But your point is well made. I've driven a lot of oversteering cars, so if something did happen it wouldn't alarm me. But not everyone has delt with swing-axle VW Bugs.
 

Ephry

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Joined
Mar 1, 2006
Location
Gaithersburg, MD
TDI
2003 GLS Golf TDI
There is always bump-steer, but that is different, and one can always anticipate it. I never had a problem with over-steering in normal road conditions when pushing the car. I do want to make the suspension more sporty, and remove some of the sway.


E
 

PDJetta

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Northern Virginia
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'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
"But not everyone has delt with swing-axle VW Bugs."


I was wondering how bad the oversteer could be with the Shine SB. I'd imagine it could not be anything near as bad as a pre-'68 (swing axle) Bug. I had at least 5 of those and never spun one out.

BTW, my avatar is a picture of the Wolfsburg Crest off of the hood of a '56 ragtop Bug I once owned! (from 1958 - 1962 the Crest was less colorful and 1963 it was discontinued). I had it mounted in the center of the steering wheel of the '85 Jetta TD. Now, I just need to find a mounting location on the '04.

--Nate
 
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peter pyce

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Joined
Nov 6, 2001
Ephry said:
I never had a problem with over-steering in normal road conditions when pushing the car......

The point was for NOT-normal road conditions, which is part of our life. The trouble happens when you do not expect it, when you do not want it, when you are not ready. Race track or autocross is entirely different story, you drive at full concentration, you want the car to rotate, you expect it, you induce it. Slippery road, downhill, sudden weight transfer and a blind curve are amazing ingredients for disaster in a VW with a thick rear bar.


The problem with mods is that everyone who has the money can get them, but not everyone is up to the task to handle the "new" car. The irony is that the stock car everyone is biach-ing about is actually the most forgiving, therefore the easiest to drive and make mistakes with and get away with it. When you modify the car, it gets actually a lot trickier to drive fast, takes more skills and is less forgiving. So, what really happens is folks think they have increased their safety envelope by modifying the suspension, but in realty they have decreased it and in some cases dramatically, but many drive way below the limits of those envelopes - it is all good and the reports are only glowing. The drama begins in panic-at-the-limit-unexpected situation, where many act in way they did not even think about they would/could - the panic way where the subconscious enters, and at that point you need the most forgiveness possible. Modified suspension shows the shortcomings right there, but then no one has the balls to come back and report how their wreck their cars and explain the dynamics of what happened and why.

As for the Shine bar, forgot to mention earlier, there are more than just two broken. I know 3 cars in my area with broken bars, which becomes 4 if I include mine. And this was back in year 02/03. Nationwide would be a lot more than that. Folks just do not post about these things, because everyone is afraid to get blamed/flamed. Dick modified the bosses, which now do not go through the bar, so the "issue" was removed from that specific point, but you all know that something somewhere has to give up sooner or later, so please let's do not think that "problem solved forever". This said, you all can go ahead and put whatever parts you want - money, car, life and time is all yours. My goal is just to bring the other side of the story and make few people think and then make a more educated decision. I made so many mistakes by listening to idiots on these boards and it would be nice if less people make mistakes in the future, otherwise there is no point of having a Club.
 
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