Mercedes Dumps Diesel-Will Diesels Survive?

Q5TDI

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https://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-dumps-diesel-in-us-110699/
The list of alternative vehicles continues to shrink.

Interesting part of the story, which explains why Fiat Chrysler has yet to re-introduce the Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited Ecodiesel and why the long-awaited Mazda CX-5 diesel has been continually delayed:

Meantime, the head of R&D for Mercedes-Benz cars, Ola Källenius, told journalists at last week’s Detroit motor show that the German car-maker will abandon plans to introduce diesel passenger cars in the US, after more than two years of internal debate and discussions with the EPA.
He said diesel vehicles account for just three per cent of the brand’s sales, and that “diesel doesn’t fit into our portfolio in the US”.


While BMW sells diesel 3 Series and X5 models in the US, where Chevrolet has a diesel Cruze and Ranger Rover and Jaguar XE diesels account for up to 15 per cent of JLR’s sales, the only diesel Mercedes-Benz model there will be the Sprinter van.


Mercedes delayed plans to sell diesel versions of its C-Class sedan and GLC-Class crossover after the US Department of Justice asked Daimler to check its diesel certification process in early 2016.
A year after Mercedes later asked the EPA to certify its MY2017 diesel Mercedes vehicles for sale in the US, it seems the company has given up trying.


After the EPA investigation into Fiat Chrysler’s diesel emissions, Mercedes last year said that “functionalities that are common in diesel vehicles” were being classed as “undisclosed Auxiliary Emission Control Devices and potentially impermissible”.
It seems the US EPA’s tough stance on diesel cars has led Mercedes to deem unviable the investment required to make them emissions compliant in the US, especially given the limited sales volume.
 

jibberjive

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It's a shame, but ultimately I think the EPA probably couldn't be happier regulating diesels out of existence in the US. When going from the US Tier 1 limits to Tier 2 limits, the EPA tightened up the NOx requirement to literally 1/20 of the previous limit, while it left the CO levels the same as before. They have been trying to regulate diesel to death by design, IMO.


 
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Lightflyer1

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Dang! Just as stations started adding diesel pumps all over the place. Now they will start drying up again. At least I got my new 2015 Beetle. It should be unique for quite some time.
 

joshhol

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I should have left my TDI unmodified to spite the EPA.
 

CHawk

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It would be nice to blame the EPA for the end of diesels in the US (and I'm not a fan of the EPA), but there are other factors that might be more important:

1. World automobile markets moving away from diesel. Europe is likely to reduce or end its diesel tax incentives in the wake of Dieselgate and other emission-related issues, significantly dropping sales in the world’s biggest diesel market. China is moving toward electric as a solution to urban smog. Japan loves gasoline hybrids. Diesel passenger cars are a very small percentage of the U.S. market. All this means that diesel's a tough sell for companies such as Mercedes, and they don't want to spend valuable marketing dollars for a few thousand vehicles, even if EPA approved them.

2. The big research dollars are going toward electric, including batteries. The shakeout has begun: car companies can’t afford to sell gassers, diesels, hybrids, and battery electrics (and possibly fuel-cell electrics) at the same time. Given the emissions challenges, limited consumer acceptance in major markets except Europe, and the higher cost of manufacture in comparison to gas engines (important in emerging markets), diesels are the logical choice to be cut back or eliminated.

3. For passenger car applications, diesel’s advantages over gas engines have been reduced over the past 8-10 years. When VW introduced its new generation of TDIs in 2009, the engines were light-years better than VW’s unrefined 2.5L gasser. But with turbocharged, direct-injection gasoline engines becoming the norm, I’m not sure that diesel is really that much better for the vast majority of drivers. Sure, I love the torque, but it seems a number of people on this forum have sold back their TDIs and bought GTIs for a real performance car experience. You’ll take a mpg hit, but as long as gas prices stay where they are, it’s affordable unless you’re a long-distance driver. Long-distance drivers have hybrid options that may not be as fun to drive, but get great mileage.
 

fookin

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It's a shame, but ultimately I think the EPA probably couldn't be happier regulating diesels out of existence in the US. When going from the US Tier 1 limits to Tier 2 limits, the EPA tightened up the NOx requirement to literally 1/20 of the previous limit, while it left the CO levels the same as before. They have been trying to regulate diesel to death by design, IMO. ]
It's not like the EPA or its employees benefit financially from regulating diesel emissions. They also don't spend money on a publicity campaigns to educate the public about the biology of breathing carcinogens.

I remember the outcry from ICE manufacturers about the death of their industry when the EPA moved to remove lead from gasoline.

The EPA is right in reducing Nox levels because cars don't regulate it well when driving in stop and go traffic in congested urban environments. Also, it's not like car manufacturers don't see the tier level changes coming years in advance.

I hope diesel doesn't go away because I have a financial interest to keep it - I have a 328d and some TDIs.
 

Mythdoc

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Here’s what I’m wondering: what has Land Rover/Jaguar figured out that the other makers have not figured out? In the high dollar market where a gasser still can’t really touch a diesel for moving a luxury SUV, they are sitting pretty now.
 

fastalan

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Chevrolet is selling diesel .... I bet Mazda and Hyundai will be rolling out diesel for real this time, not to make money of course, but to simply make fun of VW.
 

turbobrick240

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I'm starting to think that the diesel well may have been thoroughly poisoned. I really hope not, but if consumers don't choose to buy the new diesel offerings in significant numbers, many of those offerings could evaporate pretty fast.
 

CHawk

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With the exception of Europe, it's a niche market that's becoming even smaller. With the exception of specialized applications (e.g., delivery vehicles, heavy-duty pickups), it's simply not worth the cost for manufacturers to design entire drivetrains around low-volume vehicles. It's way too hard for manufacturers to keep up in electric, hybrid, and gasoline powertrains, not to mention the billions being spent on driverless technologies.
 

Rico567

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Here’s what I’m wondering: what has Land Rover/Jaguar figured out that the other makers have not figured out? In the high dollar market where a gasser still can’t really touch a diesel for moving a luxury SUV, they are sitting pretty now.
They haven't figured out anything. They're making small passenger diesels that have the same emissions systems, ceteris paribus, as our Passat. Much easier to accomplish in cars with stickers twice that of our VWs, too. We could pay cash for a Jaguar Type F or other car in that price range, but we won't spend that kind of money on a car.
That being said, I agree with a large part of "CHawk"'s post above, in that I also think small passenger diesels are dead going forward, at least in the U.S.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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If it's true (and I'm not convinced) it's a shame if Mercedes gives up on diesel in North America. For decades they were the go-to brand for high quality diesel vehicles. Twenty-five years after it was built my '93 300D is still a pleasure to drive.

In the meantime, Jaguar (mentioned above) and BMW are staying in the market. BMW just announced its new generation 540d for the US in 2018. Ford is introducing the Transit Connect diesel, and GM has the Equinox/Terrain and Cruze diesels. In 2019 all of the big three will have half ton diesel pickups.

To say the market is a bit confusing is an understatement, when you can buy a Land-Rover diesel but not a Mercedes. Odd.
 

El Dobro

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Dang! Just as stations started adding diesel pumps all over the place. Now they will start drying up again. At least I got my new 2015 Beetle. It should be unique for quite some time.
I wouldn't worry about the pumps disappearing, they still make diesel trucks.
 

LibertysChild

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Or just remove the EPA stuff and see how much better it runs. I have a 2011 Jetta with a clean exhaust turbo back and a stage 2 tune and it's fun to drive and gets 48 to 51 mpg when I drive it. The wife is getting 38 but she also goes through tires every 10,000 miles and complains that it always "skidds when you start out". Yeah I know I've tried.
 

donallen

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You’ll take a mpg hit, but as long as gas prices stay where they are, it’s affordable unless you’re a long-distance driver. Long-distance drivers have hybrid options that may not be as fun to drive, but get great mileage.
This is written as if the only consideration regarding fuel efficiency is money, when scientists world-wide, and the planet itself (noticed any bizarre weather lately?), are warning us in no uncertain terms that we may be doing irreparable damage to our only planet with our idiotic behavior with cars and other energy sinks.
 

kjclow

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I also am hoping that diesel is not dead. It will be interesting to see what the sales rates are of the GM small diesels in another year or two. The Cruze is a little small for my needs but might consider an Equinox. Looking at a Ram 1500 diesel right now. If we get the truck, we will drive the JSW until the wheels fall off. Or at least until the extended fix warranty expires.
 

CHawk

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This is written as if the only consideration regarding fuel efficiency is money, when scientists world-wide, and the planet itself (noticed any bizarre weather lately?), are warning us in no uncertain terms that we may be doing irreparable damage to our only planet with our idiotic behavior with cars and other energy sinks.
Google "prius sales gas prices" and tell me that the market doesn't see fuel efficiency=money. Cheap gas has contributed to the boom in SUVs (around the world) despite passenger cars being more efficient. Even without tighter emissions requirements forcing many diesels out of the U.S. market, diesel sales would be lagging despite its fuel efficiency advantage because of cheap gas.

If people AND governments we're all that concerned about the planet, as opposed to giving lip service to a problem to serve a political agenda, we'd see a modern powertrain in a Golf MK1, which weighed only 1,750 lbs (!!!) and was 146 inches long (Golf MK6 is 3,000 lbs and 165 inches). Manufacturing a 60+ mpg vehicle to "save the planet" is easy--just don't expect anybody to buy it.
 

bhtooefr

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If people AND governments we're all that concerned about the planet, as opposed to giving lip service to a problem to serve a political agenda, we'd see a modern powertrain in a Golf MK1, which weighed only 1,750 lbs (!!!) and was 146 inches long (Golf MK6 is 3,000 lbs and 165 inches).
Short length doesn't equal efficiency - in fact, it often hurts it, due to not having a long enough roofline.

Height and width are what you want to worry about.
 

CHawk

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Short length doesn't equal efficiency - in fact, it often hurts it, due to not having a long enough roofline.
Height and width are what you want to worry about.
You're conflating efficiency with aerodynamics. Aerodynamics is only one component of efficiency and its importance varies greatly with vehicle speed. All things being equal, if you chopped off 20 inches from a car, WITH proportional weight reduction, you'd get better economy even assuming a slight decrease in coefficient of drag from a shorter roofline.

My real point to the previous commenter was that the broad automobile market seeks an optimal ratio of fuel cost to vehicle efficiency rather than an overall reduction in GHG emissions. When fuel cost goes down, sales of efficient vehicles drops as well. Superimposed on this trend is a continued movement of the consumer toward larger vehicles, both the multifunctional (e.g., SUVs, 4-door pickups) AND within a given make and model of sedan/hatchback, such as you see with the striking expansion in dimensions and weight of the VW Golf over the years. If reducing GHG emissions were a driving force in consumer decision-making and government regulation, we would turn back the clock 40 years to a pre-SUV era when little cars from Japan and Europe, as well as some (awful) domestics (Chevette, Pinto, Maverick, Omni/Horizon) were selling strong. Any one of those vehicles made today using modern technology would exceed 60 mpg, with commensurate low GHG emissions--but hardly anyone would buy them.

By the way, Golf MK1 - 63.4 inches width / 54.9 inches height, MK6 - 70 inches width / 58.2 inches height. Given aerodynamic improvements, the MK6 is probably has less drag at highway speeds despite the larger frontal area.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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You know this discussion is purely hypothetical because cars that size would have a lot of difficulty meeting current safety standards. However, cars that will meet standards and get well in excess of 60 MPG already exist, like the 1.4L Polo.

Problem is, as you've pointed out, that people don't want those cars. I'm stunned by how small my MKIV cars look compared to modern trucks and SUVs.
 

kjclow

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Look at the Honda Civic of today versus the CVCC on the mid 70s. My swim coach had one of those and to this day I am amazed that three teen aged boys could fit in the back seat. His son was one of my best friends so we were always going some where with the coach.
 

CHawk

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You know this discussion is purely hypothetical because cars that size would have a lot of difficulty meeting current safety standards. However, cars that will meet standards and get well in excess of 60 MPG already exist, like the 1.4L Polo.

Problem is, as you've pointed out, that people don't want those cars. I'm stunned by how small my MKIV cars look compared to modern trucks and SUVs.
Great picture!

You are absolutely right about the safety standards. Long ago, my girlfriend had a 1979 Corolla (curb weight = 1,950 lbs). The doors looked like they were about 2 inches thick. It really was a tin can. Obviously no way it could meet current U.S. or European safety standards. Today, even a new Tata Tiago (India subcompact) weighs in at over 2,000 lbs, but it does get over 60 mpg with its 1.05L diesel and almost that with a 1.2L gas engine.

I know--I've gotten hopelessly off-topic. To get back on-topic, I think diesels are in a tough spot now, particularly in the U.S. If VW and Mercedes are out of the diesel market, we're looking at only a few models of diesels being sold here by only a few manufacturers (excluding diesel pickups, but even those are mostly for heavy-duty towing, not suburban living). But what's the diesel sales pitch for the general public?:
-economy? With cheaper gas and availability of hybrids, I don't see this as being effective, especially given higher prices for diesel vehicles.
-durability? It's not clear that this traditional argument for diesel is even true anymore.
-performance? Higher torque but lower horsepower is a tough sell to the general public.
-"clean diesel"? Yeah, right.
 

volksjaeger

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Of course they have to kill diesels. They can't have any competition to electric cars which the global elite are pushing hard.

Electric cars require massive subsidies and the average person would not choose to spend their hard earned money on a range bound 300 mile Tesla Model 3 for $55k (the true cost of a model 3 before Gov't subsidies) over a 600 mile range Golf Sportwagen TDI for $25k (that is much higher quality too).

This is all a part of U.N. Agenda 21. They want everyone living in high density stack and pack apartments in city centers and not out in the suburbs or countryside so they need to control everyone's movement and push these range bound autonomous vehicles. You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.

I know this all sounds crazy but look into it yourself. These things don't happen by chance. Every car company is breaking some rule or cheating in some way. The EPA gets to selectively enforce these rules/laws and they had to take down VW Diesels as they were just gaining widespread popularity.

I bought 3 of these fixed TDIs (to go along with my '02 ALH Wagon) knowing that the days of diesels is coming to an end. I may have just made a big financial investment blunder (spending $100k+ for these 3 TDIs) in a dying technology but in my own little way it's an act of defiance. I had a reservation for a Model 3 (stood in line the first day reservations were available) and when I came to the revelation as to what was taking place I cancelled it and immediately decided to buy as many TDIs as I could.

You can take my TDIs from my cold dead hands.
 

bhtooefr

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You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.
Never mind that plenty of ICE vehicles also have telematics, and some EVs don't have telematics.

No telematics, no push-of-a-button kill. And, an EV is easier to take off-grid than a diesel - all you need is a few solar panels, a stand for them, an inverter, and your 120 volt EVSE. Compare to the equipment and labor needed to make biodiesel. And, running solar on an EV won't gunk up your fuel system, whereas running side-of-the-road-made biodiesel easily can.

And what happens if the EPA bans the import and manufacture of parts to repair your TDIs? For that matter, what if the market decides to stop making parts - this isn't unlikely, this is already becoming a problem for the ALH, as European emissions laws are making them cost-prohibitive to keep on the road.
 
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turbobrick240

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I find it somewhat hard to believe that someone who thinks that the U.N. Agenda 21 was some sort of nefarious conspiracy hatched up by Jack Ruby and Glenn Beck to gain mind control while they institute the Protocols of the elders of Zion..... actually had an early model 3 reservation. But I guess stranger things have happened. Watch out for those chemtrails! ;)
 

El Dobro

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Of course they have to kill diesels. They can't have any competition to electric cars which the global elite are pushing hard.
Electric cars require massive subsidies and the average person would not choose to spend their hard earned money on a range bound 300 mile Tesla Model 3 for $55k (the true cost of a model 3 before Gov't subsidies) over a 600 mile range Golf Sportwagen TDI for $25k (that is much higher quality too).
This is all a part of U.N. Agenda 21. They want everyone living in high density stack and pack apartments in city centers and not out in the suburbs or countryside so they need to control everyone's movement and push these range bound autonomous vehicles. You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.
I know this all sounds crazy but look into it yourself. These things don't happen by chance. Every car company is breaking some rule or cheating in some way. The EPA gets to selectively enforce these rules/laws and they had to take down VW Diesels as they were just gaining widespread popularity.
I bought 3 of these fixed TDIs (to go along with my '02 ALH Wagon) knowing that the days of diesels is coming to an end. I may have just made a big financial investment blunder (spending $100k+ for these 3 TDIs) in a dying technology but in my own little way it's an act of defiance. I had a reservation for a Model 3 (stood in line the first day reservations were available) and when I came to the revelation as to what was taking place I cancelled it and immediately decided to buy as many TDIs as I could.
You can take my TDIs from my cold dead hands.
I got a kickback from the Gummint when I bought my '09 clean diesel.
 

volksjaeger

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I find it somewhat hard to believe that someone who thinks that the U.N. Agenda 21 was some sort of nefarious conspiracy ...
A little education goes a long way. Here's Rosa Koire - a forensic appraiser that talks about Agenda 21. https://youtu.be/Xu02iNri6cc

it's very real and there's plenty of evidence it's being implemented.
 

turbocharged798

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Never mind that plenty of ICE vehicles also have telematics, and some EVs don't have telematics.

No telematics, no push-of-a-button kill. And, an EV is easier to take off-grid than a diesel - all you need is a few solar panels, a stand for them, an inverter, and your 120 volt EVSE. Compare to the equipment and labor needed to make biodiesel. And, running solar on an EV won't gunk up your fuel system, whereas running side-of-the-road-made biodiesel easily can.

And what happens if the EPA bans the import and manufacture of parts to repair your TDIs? For that matter, what if the market decides to stop making parts - this isn't unlikely, this is already becoming a problem for the ALH, as European emissions laws are making them cost-prohibitive to keep on the road.
Its called we nuke the EPA and go back to actually having a free country.
 
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