NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

DnA Diesel · Sep 14, 2013

Peacemaker12 said:
Fair comment - I saw the earlier posts on making owners pay up. I attributed that more to a "corporate reflex" which is to blame the customer when something goes wrong...but yes, I saw the many comments about NHTSA's implied threat - good point. VW is seems to be right on the edge of their jurisdiction - if it can be shown to be a safety issue, VW may wind up having to buy back the cars (or replace the engine/pump with something reliable)...so that makes sense too - scary thought.

I guess we wait and see what VW does. Even without my car anymore, it is very interesting to watch.

This is just an extreme example of VW's treatment of its customers (throwing them under the bus), vice acknowledging they mis-analysed fuel quality, etc... in the pump design they commissioned to Bosch.

ALH-engined (99.5-03) TDI'ers got a milder version of the same with poor MAF sensor designs that VW wouldn't cover until years after fighting -- when many of us complained to the EPA/CARB that failing MAFs were in fact an emissions issue and that VW should have covered the failed MAF sensors under the 7-year emissions warranty (vice refusing if past the 2-hr bumper to bumper). Heck, my Mk4 still has a M-B E320CDI-sourced Bosch wire (vice film) MAF in it and it works just fine.

Your points about the convenience AND safety costs of being stranded somewhere during travels is likely an issue that the NHTSA will not support. I suspect that VW's hand (to redesign the CR pump) would only be forced by the NHTSA if there were people being injured or killed due to outright sudden engine failures leading to an accident.

2¢

Regards
D.

Lolas Dad · Sep 14, 2013

Can anyone explain to me why this is only happening with VW and not any other diesel engine like Ford or Chevy or BMW?

Is it only people that own a VW misfuel?

It's probably more of a defective pump to begin with than anything else.

When a tanker drops a load of diesel in the tanks at a gas station he could have had gasoline in the tank before leaving some in the tank before loading the diesel in the tank. Sometimes the tank is not always totally empty leaving a few gallons behind. The same goes for gasoline with small amounts of diesel in it.

El Dobro · Sep 14, 2013

Let's see if there's a slew of Cruze diesels with HPFPs imploding from misfueling.

Lightflyer1 · Sep 14, 2013

Except misfueling isn't VW's fault. If you are putting contaminated fuel in the car for any reason VW is off the hook. This has been their position all along. If it works with ASTM diesel their design will fly.

Ski in NC · Sep 14, 2013

Lolas Dad said:
Can anyone explain to me why this is only happening with VW and not any other diesel engine like Ford or Chevy or BMW?

Is it only people that own a VW misfuel?

It's probably more of a defective pump to begin with than anything else.

When a tanker drops a load of diesel in the tanks at a gas station he could have had gasoline in the tank before leaving some in the tank before loading the diesel in the tank. Sometimes the tank is not always totally empty leaving a few gallons behind. The same goes for gasoline with small amounts of diesel in it.

Apparently, the vw pump is highly sensitive to fuel lubricity, so either poor lubricity diesel, or good diesel with some gas puts it over the line to failure. Other pump designs seem to be more tolerant of marginal fuel. But good data are hard to find. Hard to say if the vw failure rate is really higher, or just that there are more vw diesels out there. Things kinda get blown up on them interwebs...

kjclow · Sep 14, 2013

PlaneCrazy said:
Me neither in Canada, but read somewhere that some US dealers do top up... hell will freeze in Canada first, I'm afraid...

All new VWs in the US are supposed to come with a full tank of fuel. I remember that some of the early failures reported to NHTSA were dealer misfuels.

JSWTDI09 · Sep 14, 2013

kjclow said:
All new VWs in the US are supposed to come with a full tank of fuel. I remember that some of the early failures reported to NHTSA were dealer misfuels.

My dealer almost misfueled mine when I bought it. I got a call from the salesman telling me that my car was in and ready to pick up. Then he said: "All I have do do before you pick it up is to fill the tank with gas". To which I replied: "I would much prefer if you filled it with diesel fuel". ...and he replied: "Oh yeah, it's a diesel". I have often wondered what he would have done if I had not corrected him.

Have Fun!

Don

GoFaster · Sep 15, 2013

Lolas Dad said:
Can anyone explain to me why this is only happening with VW and not any other diesel engine like Ford or Chevy or BMW?

Late model Ford Powerstroke and Chevrolet Duramax diesels use a 2-piston version of the CP4... injector pump, and failures are not exactly unheard of if you look on forums dedicated to those trucks.

But, it seems that the CP4 pumps are very sensitive to both the fuel quality and operating conditions. It seems that the pump on the Passat TDI does not fail anywhere near as frequently as those on Golf/Jetta TDI. It is similar, but not identical, and the Passat has other detail differences in the fuel system - notably, slightly lower injection pressure (puts less load on the pump plunger).

Let's not forget that the main reason NHTSA is involved was VW's abysmal treatment of its customers early on in this affair. They STILL maintain that it's a misfueling issue.

Lolas Dad said:
Is it only people that own a VW misfuel?

Certainly not! But HPFP failures have happened to long-term TDI owners (multiple vehicles) who ought to have enough experience with diesel vehicles to not misfuel them. 'Course, they have no control of what the filling station has in the underground tank that feeds the nozzle that says "diesel" on it ... and therein probably lies the biggest real problem. Still, older VW diesels did not have trouble with this, and the Passat TDI doesn't seem to.

Lolas Dad said:
It's probably more of a defective pump to begin with than anything else.

Yep.

El Dobro said:
Let's see if there's a slew of Cruze diesels with HPFPs imploding from misfueling.

That engine has a Bosch pump but it is a different design ... and the system has a lower operating pressure. I suspect that the GM powertrain engineers were fully aware of VW's troubles in this area and did something about it ...

NewLyme · Sep 16, 2013

PlaneCrazy said:
Me neither in Canada, but read somewhere that some US dealers do top up... hell will freeze in Canada first, I'm afraid...

My new 2012 Golf was filled up twice by the dealer before I got it. I got it with 284 miles on it. They drove it up to Cleveland from Dayton. My 2013 I got with 17 miles on it and the tank was empty. I went to the station with them to fill it up.

scdevon · Sep 17, 2013

Lolas Dad said:
Can anyone explain to me why this is only happening with VW and not any other diesel engine like Ford or Chevy or BMW?

Ford diesels in particular are suffering the same CP series pump failures. Google it.

DasTeknoViking · Oct 3, 2013

Not sure if anyone posted this before.... I was at Epcot on a family vacation and spotted this in the Test Track after ride hall.

I couldn't get a good picture of the pump or the motor without having someone breathing down my neck

TNriverjet · Oct 4, 2013

There is no way that thing is going to get 46 mpg on the freeway... Is there?

bhtooefr · Oct 4, 2013

If they got the aerodynamics right, sure, why not?

It does use urea, so the powertrain may well be more efficient than the Jetta on the highway, too - look at the (heavier, draggier (due to larger frontal area)) Passat, which gets better mileage than the Jetta.

The crazy high weight and the slushbox (torque converter and all) show up in the city mileage, though.

Thunderstruck · Oct 4, 2013

46 and then some if you look at what Wayne achieved in his test drive.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385264&postcount=1

Genesis · Oct 4, 2013

27 city? Pass. I get high 30s in the city in my TDI Jetta

ezshift5 · Oct 4, 2013

Thunderstruck said:
46 and then some if you look at what Wayne achieved in his test drive.
/QUOTE]

Senor Gerdes would appear far more skilled at logging high MPG than the average diesel driver.

We could look at fuelly.com and the 42 MPG EPA HWY JSW rating...............

I'd be amazed if I ever achieve EPA HWY + 20 MPG. (I really try, honest).

ez

amy1000 · Oct 4, 2013

My neighbor's mom in New Jersey has exact same car as mine. I alerted her to the HPFP failure a few months ago. She hadn't know about the fuel pump issue. She had over 120k on it and was looking at a $7000 repair bill. She questioned her dealer and made sure they and VoA were aware that she was aware of the pump problem. VofA covered replacement of entire fuel system. Mom and dad thanked me for alerting them...who knows what would have happened if they didn't know about it or make it clear to VW that they were aware of it. Whenever I see or meet someone driving a TDI I am sure to alert them. Hope everyone else does the same.

ps...no problems yet with my replaced fuel system yet...have put 18000 miles on the car since the replacement.

Question: Of those of you who had to have your fuel system or pump replaced:
Did you keep the TDI?
Did you replace with new TDI?
Did you go with another brand or model (ie ditch VW TDI altogether)?

SilverMerkur · Oct 4, 2013

amy1000 said:
ps...no problems yet with my replaced fuel system yet...have put 18000 miles on the car since the replacement.

Question: Of those of you who had to have your fuel system or pump replaced:
Did you keep the TDI?
Did you replace with new TDI?
Did you go with another brand or model (ie ditch VW TDI altogether)?

I had a failure at 58k miles on mine, which VW covered and addressed without much prodding from me. Given the design of the fuel system, I did have lingering concerns I would someday see another failure again if I kept the car long enough. However, that was not the driving factor for me to get another car. Instead, I traded my car in six months later on a '14 Passat. We needed the space. Also, it appears that the design differences have addressed the gotchas on the first gen of VW CRs to a satisfactory level.

I did look closely at the Fusion (nice car but didn't seem to feel quite right for me) and the Mazda 6 (too small in the back seat).

The overall factors that kept me in the VW family for the third time were:
- With the exception of the HPFP, my first two Jettas were bullet proof. No issues to contend with except regular wear and service items
- VWs seem to fit me like a glove. I was able to step into my Passat and feel like the car had been part of the family for a long time.
- The dealer I work with has been really great (sales and service; yeah, I know - very unusual).

I would sum up these three comments as quality and customer experience. Hopefully VW continues to focus on them and make these more consistent for everyone.

My $.02.....

turborod · Nov 4, 2013

Mine lost the pump at 104 thou miles. Replaced with no charge. Still have it with 164 thou miles now. Use the 10-20% Bio Diesel here now for the added pump lube. Long ago paid for. Can not afford a new car. This is it for the next 150k. Now, if they had a Passat TDI Sport Wagon??

Craigster91 · Nov 5, 2013

I have spent a couple hours on this forum, particularly perusing various pages on this thread and the HPFP problem affecting the Jetta TDI Sport Wagon. I am not completely following the story, however, and cannot invest the time into fully reading 374 pages.

Wondering: Could someone kindly summarize the situation for me and others who are latecomers to the discussion?

Specifically:

1. Is VW now paying full replacement cost for ALL JSWs that encounter the fuel system problem? Or only for original owners? Or only for certain model years? Or only within particular warranty terms or mileage limits?

2. Does the replacement FIX the problem? Is anyone having a 2nd fuel system problem - post replacement?

3. It sounded like most of the problems (at least on a few pages I read) were affecting 2009-2010 models. Did VW fix the problematic Bosch system with a better/working solution for the new 2011 versions onward? Or is the problem potentially affecting all model years, even up to the present production?

4. Early on, it sounded like the failing HPFP system was only projected to affect < 2% of the vehicles. Is it now expected that ALL will fail -- it's just a matter of timing?

5. Is the failing fuel system only happening on the JSW TDI models, and not any of the other VW TDI cars?

Thanks for clarifying!

evantful · Nov 5, 2013

Craigster91 said:
I have spent a couple hours on this forum, particularly perusing various pages on this thread and the HPFP problem affecting the Jetta TDI Sport Wagon. I am not completely following the story, however, and cannot invest the time into fully reading 374 pages.
Wondering: Could someone kindly summarize the situation for me and others who are latecomers to the discussion?
Specifically:
1. Is VW now paying full replacement cost for ALL JSWs that encounter the fuel system problem? Or only for original owners? Or only for certain model years? Or only within particular warranty terms or mileage limits?
2. Does the replacement FIX the problem? Is anyone having a 2nd fuel system problem - post replacement?
3. It sounded like most of the problems (at least on a few pages I read) were affecting 2009-2010 models. Did VW fix the problematic Bosch system with a better/working solution for the new 2011 versions onward? Or is the problem potentially affecting all model years, even up to the present production?
4. Early on, it sounded like the failing HPFP system was only projected to affect < 2% of the vehicles. Is it now expected that ALL will fail -- it's just a matter of timing?
5. Is the failing fuel system only happening on the JSW TDI models, and not any of the other VW TDI cars?
Thanks for clarifying!

1. It depends on who you ask. For some it has been a complete reimbursement, regardless of mileage. Others they take care of most of it. Some jumping through hoops to get VW to step up. From my understanding VW of North America has been much more willing to help most that are out of warranty. Our Canadian friends seem to be having a much harder time with getting replacements covered.

2. I don't think theres enough data and mileage to say one way or another

3. The number seems to point that way, but no one knows for sure if there have been newer revisions of the BOSCH pump. At the same time, the newer the car, the less miles so its hard to compare to older MYs. It has continued to occur on 2012 models and I believe their are reports of 2013 MY cars having problems.

4. Inherently its still a mechanical part. It will eventually fail just like any fuel pump can and will. It can't last forever, no pump can. Many have had it last 150k miles ++ and never had a problem. That being said, no one really complains when a fuel pump fails at 100k on other cars because it doesn't cause $7k worth of damage. Thats our problem, Not that the pump fails but that it takes the fuel system with it.

5. This issue is mainly only effecting (at least in larger numbers), CBEA and CJAA First Gen Common Rail TDI engines found in the MK6 Golf, Mk5/Mk6 JSW, and North American Jetta Sedan TDI. The Passat uses a newer generation CR TDI engine with a different design (and fuel pump) as does the Toureg.

A forum member named 2micron has developed a kit to isolate a HPFP failure to itself. It costs $450 for the set.

Paulinski · Nov 5, 2013

The Passat uses the same pump. Different injectors and lower pressure.

kjclow · Nov 5, 2013

There have been a few here that reported multiple pump failure but I think the issues were related to how well the VW service people cleaned the whole system since at least one of the failures happened on the service test drive.

DasTeknoViking · Nov 7, 2013

I just had my friend file with NHTSA for his third Q7 TDi HPFP failure.

He just had one puke out on him few weeks ago on his was home from out of state. Picked the car up from the dealer and today it wouldn't start after he had it back for just the weekend. It's back at the dealer with a 15k dollar estimate. Unfortunately for him he's done with Audi, he bought the car new.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

Mrrogers1 · Nov 8, 2013

DasTeknoViking said:
I just had my friend file with NHTSA for his third Q7 TDi HPFP failure.

He just had one puke out on him few weeks ago on his was home from out of state. Picked the car up from the dealer and today it wouldn't start after he had it back for just the weekend. It's back at the dealer with a 15k dollar estimate. Unfortunately for him he's done with Audi, he bought the car new.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

Eek! I'd blow my lid if that happened on my Q7. That's crazy and sad

(*I don't have one but if I paid that much money for a diesel truck to have this happen multiple times, oh man.... smh)

Sent from my d3rpONE using Tapatalk 4

Craigster91 · Nov 8, 2013

Evantful --

Thanks so much for the thorough answers to my questions.

I think you've sufficiently scared me away.

That said... You knew this and still bought a 2013 tdi.
Why?

kjclow · Nov 9, 2013

Biggest reason is that we both love driving the diesels. Nothing else is this price range has the same feel.

I didn't know about this when I bought my 10 JSW but went into the purchase of the 11 Golf with my eyes wide open. Percentage of failures seems to be around 2% and figured the new car and engine set up was worth the gamble. We traded a 09 crv getting around 20 mpg in town, which is my wife's standard driving, for the Golf that gets around 33. Cheaper insurance was a bonus.

evantful · Nov 9, 2013

Craigster91-

As KJClow said, there is nothing in its price range that matches what it offers. I love how it drives, I love the cabin, I love the fuel efficiency (I easily get 48-49mpg hwy at 65mph, this even with a DSG). I came from a MKV GTI DSG(my first VW) and I looked at a lot of different vehicles, and I knew I would miss the GTI a lot. The JSW TDI was as close as I could get. I just recently added in a paddle shifter steering wheel, and Im going to throw on a stock GTI rear sway bar and ill basically have what I wanted.

I spent nearly 4 months looking into it. I knew the potential issues of the HPFP, but pulled the trigger anyway. I was able to buy mine new, which with the power train warranty buys me about 3.5-4 years before I have to deal with the idea of paying for a failure myself, worst case scenario, and I plan on keeping it for 150k miles.

With 2 micron's filter kit now being readily available, my concern has disappeared. In reality there are a lot of CR TDI cars on the road and 98-99% of them haven't had HPFP related issues.

That being said when people ask about the HPFP, there are some people who say "Drive more, worry less", and I don't think thats the correct response given the nature of the failure. A car model can have faulty transmissions, which normally would be a big expense, 2-3k . This can cause upward of 4-7k worth of repairs, and everyone should have that understanding before they make the jump.

I would recommend the car. I don't have any regrets.

ZiggyTheHamster · Nov 14, 2013

evantful said:
3.5-4 years

But now that you have a car that's so much cheaper to take on road trips... you will

I've racked up 125k on my '09. I blew past my powertrain warranty in the first 8 months.

compu_85 · Nov 14, 2013

Paulinski said:
The Passat uses the same pump. Different injectors and lower pressure.

Same family, but the exact part number is not the same.

-J

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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