Don't mix biodiesel with diesel in your tank.

Ski in NC · Nov 10, 2009

Geez... If you guys want to see the results of mixing bio and D2, do the following: Buy a 1gal jug of pickles. Eat the pickles. Dump out the pickle liquor. Wipe out jug. Pour in the mixture of bio and d2 that you are using in your car. Let it sit a few days. Observe through the clear glass any separation/stratification/etc that may occur. Report the findings.

UFO · Nov 10, 2009

Ski in NC said:
Geez... If you guys want to see the results of mixing bio and D2, do the following: Buy a 1gal jug of pickles. Eat the pickles. Dump out the pickle liquor. Wipe out jug. Pour in the mixture of bio and d2 that you are using in your car. Let it sit a few days. Observe through the clear glass any separation/stratification/etc that may occur. Report the findings.

The issue has never been separation. It's stratification from insufficient mixing to begin with. Once mixed, the two do not separate. And unfortunately pickle jars do not simulate fuel tanks, either in shape or fuel circulation characteristics.

jasonTDI · Nov 11, 2009

naturist said:
Of course we drive 'em. But the amount of "sloshing" around is low, unless you manage to get upside down several times. A good roll down an embankment will do the job, but just driving down the road won't. If you'd like proof of this for yourself, fill a half-liter soda bottle (glass preferred, clear, colorless, so you can SEE what happens) about 2/3 full of diesel, then add a layer of biodiesel on top. Leave some air space in it, and put it in your cup holder as you drive around. You'll find it'll just sit there on top, no matter how many weeks you drive around with it in that cup holder.

Not even remotely the same thing as the tank. The tank gets sloshed way more due to it's varying shape and the constant to and from flow from the pump. 8 Years of splash blending by me and MANY clients say otherwise as well.

HoneyBeetle · Nov 11, 2009

aja8888 said:
BK: I don't understand your comment. I use one quart of soy-based biodiesel (bought from Houston Biodiesel) per tank of D2. I put the quart in after the D2 fill when I get home. I buy the biodiesel in 5 gallon increments and store it in a poly container.

Am I doing something wrong or not recommended?

Thanks,

Tony

I've been reading this post. At first, you say that "splash mixing" isn't good enough. Now, you're saying that the D2 will mix in the fuel tank because of sloshing around, etc.

I'm a little confused as to what you are saying is best, pre-mix prior to pouring into tank or "splash mixing" or maybe something else.

Also, does splash mixing, or any other type of mixing help a TDI engine with lubricity or does this have other good results (favorable factors)?

I haven't heard much discussion of the value or benefits of mixing or using bio-fuel by any mixing methods (e.g., fill up once in a while, pre-mix or use small quantities per tank of fuel). What would the benefits be and can you put a value on them? Also, what are the bad points, i.e., detriments?

Apparently, based on this conversation....other factors apply, like humidity levels of the location. It appears that water, or condensation, is a key point of concern.

So, my "take-away" based on this thread is that there "might" be a benefit to mixing bio-diesel with regular diesel which could be, lubricity. However, this is assumed. I"m not sure if it is so. But, on the other hand, if water accumulation in the fuel system is a concern when you mix, that's not a good thing. In fact, water may blow the whole theory of mixing being a benefit out of the water. So, does water in the fuel actually "outweigh" any alleged lubricity benefit? Is this what you are saying?

Never the less, based on my reading of this "scholarly" conversation, there are no posts on #1, if mixing is really a benefit and what are the benefits, #2, whether or not mixing would work for my TDI in my region and why.

I guess you guys are simply talking about "methods" of mixing, which is best and why.

My CTSs are whether or not this is a good thing to do or not. If it isn't, there would be no need to speculate on the mixing methods. I've read threads on bio-diesel, but I can't seem to get a good concensus of what is good for your TDI and why. I a few blurbs of opinion, but no solid data or verifyable info.

Suggestion: Wouldn't it be nice to see a spread sheet on the benfits and detriments (+ and -) of using a mix of bio-diesel and fuel?

Thereby you can measure the data as to the value of mixing boi-diesel with fuel in different regions or by using different methods....or not. I'd like this!!!!!

If the chart was going to be more complex, or have better data, you could enter other variables like types of engines...if this matters....like the size, 1.9L, or whatever (if this makes a difference).

This seems to be the best method to me of calculating a bottom line of variables, rather than speculating.

But, on the other hand, discussions are interesting and fun. I guess that's the point. Spread sheets are time consuming, boaring for sime, less temoral, more cerebral....

tdileadfoot · Nov 11, 2009

biodiesel lubricity

It is not assumed that biodiesel improves lubrucity.

This has been proven by independent testing.

Biodiesel is the most effective additive for lubricity

see link below

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

tdileadfoot · Nov 11, 2009

formerPDfan said:
I've tried several different blends with no noticeable difference in performance, although I admit that's not necessarily a validation of my methods. I have used chicken fat biodiesel each time since it has greater BTU than soy.
I have run B100 (full tank) in 50-60 F weather with no problem (a little hard starting one morning, though).
Most of the time, I ran B67, that % only because it was easy to add 100 gallons of bio to my 150 gallon tank and then fill up to 150 with petrodiesel.
In winter months (seldom colder than 30 F where I live) I have run "winterized" B67 which consists of 100 gallons biodiesel, 15 gallons kerosene (10% of total), and roughly 35 gallons petrodiesel to fill up my 150 gal transfer tank. I "splash-blended" at the pump, and the stop-and-go on the way home was a second mix. You can feel the fuel slosh back and forth as you are towing it, so you know it is mixing it to some degree. BTW, I towed with a truck and not my car - Passat transmission NOT made for towing.
I ran biodiesel blends for about 45K miles with no incident. I am presently at 105K miles and still have not had any fuel system problems. Again, not saying my methods are foolproof, but they worked well for me in my climate (South Georgia).

biodiesel is a little heavier than d2 and would mix better if "splashed" on top.

see link below page 16,17,18,19

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/topics/diesel/elkoworkshop0607/4b-Campbell.pdf

Diesel Addict · Nov 11, 2009

UFO said:
I believe what I was saying is the solubility of the biodiesel for water isn't changed. That may or may not be the case, and your fuel distributor's "experiment" has too many variables to make the claim of reduced solubility. It's prbably a good thing you stopped using that fuel, it sounds like it was wet, not what I'd expect from Nevada fuel.

I think water in biodiesel depends more on the supplier's production methods than the climate. To my understanding the final step in biodiesel production is to wash the fuel with water and thus get rid of any methanol residue. This is primarily what saturates the fuel with water, not the climate.

Diesel Addict · Nov 11, 2009

HoneyBeetle said:
I've been reading this post. At first, you say that "splash mixing" isn't good enough. Now, you're saying that the D2 will mix in the fuel tank because of sloshing around, etc.

I'm a little confused as to what you are saying is best, pre-mix prior to pouring into tank or "splash mixing" or maybe something else.

Also, does splash mixing, or any other type of mixing help a TDI engine with lubricity or does this have other good results (favorable factors)?

I haven't heard much discussion of the value or benefits of mixing or using bio-fuel by any mixing methods (e.g., fill up once in a while, pre-mix or use small quantities per tank of fuel). What would the benefits be and can you put a value on them? Also, what are the bad points, i.e., detriments?

Apparently, based on this conversation....other factors apply, like humidity levels of the location. It appears that water, or condensation, is a key point of concern.

So, my "take-away" based on this thread is that there "might" be a benefit to mixing bio-diesel with regular diesel which could be, lubricity. However, this is assumed. I"m not sure if it is so. But, on the other hand, if water accumulation in the fuel system is a concern when you mix, that's not a good thing. In fact, water may blow the whole theory of mixing being a benefit out of the water. So, does water in the fuel actually "outweigh" any alleged lubricity benefit? Is this what you are saying?

Never the less, based on my reading of this "scholarly" conversation, there are no posts on #1, if mixing is really a benefit and what are the benefits, #2, whether or not mixing would work for my TDI in my region and why.

I guess you guys are simply talking about "methods" of mixing, which is best and why.

My CTSs are whether or not this is a good thing to do or not. If it isn't, there would be no need to speculate on the mixing methods. I've read threads on bio-diesel, but I can't seem to get a good concensus of what is good for your TDI and why. I a few blurbs of opinion, but no solid data or verifyable info.

Suggestion: Wouldn't it be nice to see a spread sheet on the benfits and detriments (+ and -) of using a mix of bio-diesel and fuel?

Thereby you can measure the data as to the value of mixing boi-diesel with fuel in different regions or by using different methods....or not. I'd like this!!!!!

If the chart was going to be more complex, or have better data, you could enter other variables like types of engines...if this matters....like the size, 1.9L, or whatever (if this makes a difference).

This seems to be the best method to me of calculating a bottom line of variables, rather than speculating.

But, on the other hand, discussions are interesting and fun. I guess that's the point. Spread sheets are time consuming, boaring for sime, less temoral, more cerebral....

The simplest way is to buy the biodiesel pre-blended as I mentioned in my first post, preferably from a source that pays attention to quality.

UFO · Nov 11, 2009

Diesel Addict said:
I think water in biodiesel depends more on the supplier's production methods than the climate. To my understanding the final step in biodiesel production is to wash the fuel with water and thus get rid of any methanol residue. This is primarily what saturates the fuel with water, not the climate.

In some production. There are effective production methods that do not require water. You are correct though, if the producer does not adequately dry the fuel after a water wash, it may exceed ASTM by a lot. It sounds to me if water drops out in normal splash blending, your fuel is off spec, regardless if caused by wash technique or weather conditions.

Diesel Addict · Nov 11, 2009

UFO said:
In some production. There are effective production methods that do not require water. You are correct though, if the producer does not adequately dry the fuel after a water wash, it may exceed ASTM by a lot. It sounds to me if water drops out in normal splash blending, your fuel is off spec, regardless if caused by wash technique or weather conditions.

As Nick noted, it doesn't have to be the biodiesel that's off spec. I agree with him that adding mildly saturated (even if in-spec) bio to petro diesel that's already contaminated with some water (which probably isn't unusual) is asking for trouble. But even if some water drops out in your fuel tank, you probably wouldn't notice. The consequence would "just" be gradual rusting and increased wear in your fuel system.

Lug_Nut · Nov 12, 2009

The purchase of pre-blended biodiesel / petrodiesel mixes presumes that the ratio that is being sold is the ratio I desire, generally not the situation for me. If I want a B75 blend to maximize bio-benefit while minimizing dino-detriment to a level that will see me through the next few days of cool weather how am I to do that other than by blending for myself?

Biodiesel is more hygrophillic than petroleum diesel. The water content suspended in bio would not 'migrate' into dry petro. The water dissolved / suspended in petro would be far more likely to be drawn out and adsorbed by the bio content. A gallon of "saturated" B100 mixed into 9 gallons of petro would still be saturated even though now diluted to ten gallons of B10.

HoneyBee(tle), I have been using Bursaw on Rt 119 in Acton most recently. They have a public pump selling B100 (but priced like B99) bio made by World Energy, have early opening hours, Saturday hours too, and accept credit cards.
It will require splash blending though, as the ULSD pump is on the side of the building, not out back with the bio pump.

I used to use the T H Malloy location in Cumberland, RI when I had a car with a hitch. The longer distance to this location could be justified with their lower price (B99) if I could get large volumes. I'd generally get 50+ gallons at a time. They also had Saturday morning hours and accepted credit cards. Malloy's fuel is produced by Newport Biodiesel.

b4black · Nov 12, 2009

Lug_Nut said:
The ASTM limit of water in biodiesel is 500 mg/kg (.5g/1000g, or 1:2000)
The solubility limit is about 1500 ppm (1500/1000000, or 3:2000)
Water separated out of the fuel indicates that the water content dissolved in the saturated fuel is THREE TIMES over the water limit of ASTM biodiesel.

Apples and oranges. The ASTM limit is for free water (and particulates). The B100 solubility is for dissolved water.

Dry B100 would absorb the first 1500 ppm. Then the next 500 ppm would drop out before being off-spec.

b4black · Nov 12, 2009

Diesel Addict said:
I think water in biodiesel depends more on the supplier's production methods than the climate. To my understanding the final step in biodiesel production is to wash the fuel with water and thus get rid of any methanol residue. This is primarily what saturates the fuel with water, not the climate.

It's steam under vacuum. Commerical B100 is well below the saturation point.

Diesel Addict · Nov 12, 2009

Hmm, all this makes me wonder then if I unintentionally spread misinformation here. I certainly would not want to spread any. Maybe there's no harm in mixing bio and petro diesel, assuming they're both reasonably dry and produced to a high standard of quality (and of course warm enough to ensure proper blending). I guess the big question is whether water solubility and dilution have a linear relationship. Based on what that bio producer told me, it sounds like it's not linear, but who knows what they were doing or using. It's possible that all they were seeing was free water that was already present in their bio or the petro diesel they were using which was simply settling out at the bottom.

HoneyBeetle · Nov 15, 2009

Diesel Addict said:
The simplest way is to buy the biodiesel pre-blended as I mentioned in my first post, preferably from a source that pays attention to quality.

I don't want to get off topic, but the alternative to splash mixing would be......fill up your tank?

Questions related to filling with BD:

Is the occasional fill ok for your engine or would this cause problems? I think the answer would be to fill with B20, because it's pre-mixed. I think the other answer would be if B20, the occasional fill is good for my engine....but I'm not sure.

Suppose I fill up with B100, only on occassion? What are the benefits and what are the hazards?

******* Update: I found a good semi-answer in biodiesel FAQ; however, does the response, below, apply to the occasional fill?:
Q) Will using Biodiesel fuel harm my engine?

Volkswagen TDI powerplants from 1996 through the 2003 model years run very well on Biodiesel. One thing to know is that with vehicles that have never used Biodiesel, the older the vehicle, the higher the probability of microbial growth accumulating in its fuel tank. Biodiesel, being the terrific solvent that it is, can and will loosen these growths/deposits and send them downstream to the fuel filter. Anyone who is just starting to use Biodiesel in an engine which hasn't previously used it is cautioned to have at least one spare fuel filter standing by in case of fuel starvaton due to clogging. In new or near-new vehicles, microbes should not be a problem.

UFO · Nov 15, 2009

b4black said:
Apples and oranges. The ASTM limit is for free water (and particulates). The B100 solubility is for dissolved water.

Dry B100 would absorb the first 1500 ppm. Then the next 500 ppm would drop out before being off-spec.

What I read you writing is there can be free water in biodiesel without exceeding the ASTM spec. Looks like nonsense to me.

TomB · Nov 15, 2009

famelec said:
I'm getting confused from all of this....

It sounds like splash blending isn't recommended because it potentially isn't enough agitation to mix the B100 with diesel. However, is the problem only that in colder climates the B100 will gel if not properly mixed, or is the problem that in any climate there are potentially problems with water separation if not properly mixed?

Brian

That was the intent of the original post.

Scare you off of BD even though REAL life experience proves this does not happen. Some here have stated it happens in the lab where conditions are created exactly as desired for the testing.

Check your water separator drain when you do it. How much water have you gotten. I personally have gotten none in 7 years of BD usage! That is the REAL evidence.

TomB · Nov 15, 2009

Diesel Addict said:
Hmm, all this makes me wonder then if I unintentionally spread misinformation here. I certainly would not want to spread any. Maybe there's no harm in mixing bio and petro diesel, assuming they're both reasonably dry and produced to a high standard of quality (and of course warm enough to ensure proper blending). I guess the big question is whether water solubility and dilution have a linear relationship. Based on what that bio producer told me, it sounds like it's not linear, but who knows what they were doing or using. It's possible that all they were seeing was free water that was already present in their bio or the petro diesel they were using which was simply settling out at the bottom.

Were they trying to sell you a solution for this "issue?" Could have been good ol' salesmanship of creating a need for a product they sell.

UFO · Nov 15, 2009

TomB said:
That was the intent of the original post.

Scare you off of BD even though REAL life experience proves this does not happen. Some here have stated it happens in the lab where conditions are created exactly as desired for the testing.

Check your water separator drain when you do it. How much water have you gotten. I personally have gotten none in 7 years of BD usage! That is the REAL evidence.

Zero water here after 5 years and 100k miles of B100 and "splash-blending".

DoctorDawg · Nov 15, 2009

A conveniently nearby station around here sells B20. I'm considering mixing a quarter-tank of that with 3/4 tank of D2, to get to the VW-approved limit of B5 in my '09. I'm of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that in this case splash-mixing should be fine, since the bio already met the dino in the B20, thus by the time I add it to the tank the bio is very much diluted and the two flavors should be highly miscible. Opinions?

UFO · Nov 15, 2009

DoctorDawg said:
A conveniently nearby station around here sells B20. I'm considering mixing a quarter-tank of that with 3/4 tank of D2, to get to the VW-approved limit of B5 in my '09. I'm of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that in this case splash-mixing should be fine, since the bio already met the dino in the B20, thus by the time I add it to the tank the bio is very much diluted and the two flavors should be highly miscible. Opinions?

Absolutely. B20 is quite dilute already.

HoneyBeetle · Nov 15, 2009

tdileadfoot said:
It is not assumed that biodiesel improves lubrucity.

This has been proven by independent testing.

Biodiesel is the most effective additive for lubricity

see link below

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

You say biodiesel is an additive. I thought it was a subsitute or alternative for regulator diesel.

40X40 · Nov 15, 2009

DoctorDawg said:
A conveniently nearby station around here sells B20. I'm considering mixing a quarter-tank of that with 3/4 tank of D2, to get to the VW-approved limit of B5 in my '09. I'm of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that in this case splash-mixing should be fine, since the bio already met the dino in the B20, thus by the time I add it to the tank the bio is very much diluted and the two flavors should be highly miscible. Opinions?

That should work fine.

The problem with Bio-D is that people can make/buy a bad batch and never even know it.... or the end user will buy too much and let it set around too long and it goes bad (oxidizes? absorbs water??) or ages.

Bio-D is good stuff and I like it a lot, but the quality can be variable from place to place and time to time.

Your plan sounds like a winner to me, as always carry a spare fuel filter no matter what fuel you are burning.

Bill

HoneyBeetle · Nov 15, 2009

Lug_Nut said:
The purchase of pre-blended biodiesel / petrodiesel mixes presumes that the ratio that is being sold is the ratio I desire, generally not the situation for me. If I want a B75 blend to maximize bio-benefit while minimizing dino-detriment to a level that will see me through the next few days of cool weather how am I to do that other than by blending for myself?

Biodiesel is more hygrophillic than petroleum diesel. The water content suspended in bio would not 'migrate' into dry petro. The water dissolved / suspended in petro would be far more likely to be drawn out and adsorbed by the bio content. A gallon of "saturated" B100 mixed into 9 gallons of petro would still be saturated even though now diluted to ten gallons of B10.

HoneyBee(tle), I have been using Bursaw on Rt 119 in Acton most recently. They have a public pump selling B100 (but priced like B99) bio made by World Energy, have early opening hours, Saturday hours too, and accept credit cards.
It will require splash blending though, as the ULSD pump is on the side of the building, not out back with the bio pump.

I used to use the T H Malloy location in Cumberland, RI when I had a car with a hitch. The longer distance to this location could be justified with their lower price (B99) if I could get large volumes. I'd generally get 50+ gallons at a time. They also had Saturday morning hours and accepted credit cards. Malloy's fuel is produced by Newport Biodiesel.

LugNut....my issue is that I want to go to T H Malloy in Cumberland and fill up. I researched the price of bio-diesel there today. B20=$2.81; B50$2.68; B99=$2.39. Since B99 is only $2.39, I would spend the one gallon of fuel and hour it takes to fill up. I figure on a 15 gallon tank, if I purchased B99, I'd save around $7.50 per fill up (not to mention other benefits). So, to me, if it's good for my TDI, I'll drive the hour round trip to Maloy's every once in a while. Immediate cash benefits would only be about $4.80 or so. No matter, I'd do it tomorrow...but I would like an answer to my question first.

HOWEVER<<<<<<<my question is>>>>>>>>can I fill up every once in a while without doing any damage to my 01 TDI?????? All I know, so far is the microbes (when gunk meets solvent) can cause fuel failure. My response to this is...my fuel tank and fuel system was cleaned out less than a year ago. I am ready to change my fuel filter (before freezing weather comes our way). So, why not wait.....fill up with biodiesel....(clean the engine a bit, or whatever). Then, I can change my fuel filter. What do you think? Is B99 ok for my TDI?

Everyone seems to be concerned with the solvent properties of biodiesel. So, I've been waiting patiently. I have yet to get a good answer to my question regarding filling the tank opposed to splash mixing.

b4black · Nov 16, 2009

UFO said:
What I read you writing is there can be free water in biodiesel without exceeding the ASTM spec. Looks like nonsense to me.

500 ppm is a small amount of free water, but yes, trace free water is allowed. Same spec applies to diesel fuel. The test method is a centrifuge.

UFO · Nov 16, 2009

b4black said:
500 ppm is a small amount of free water, but yes, trace free water is allowed. Same spec applies to diesel fuel. The test method is a centrifuge.

But the spec is 500ppm, regardless of how it is manifest in the fuel. It is virtually impossible to have free water in the same fuel that has no entrained water, so 499 ppm free water is out of spec.

GoFaster · Nov 16, 2009

IF ...

the biodiesel is of good quality which implies that it does not contain excessive water (regardless of the semantics)

AND

you are operating at a temperature above the gelling temperature of biodiesel

AND

you are not operating a 2009+ DPF-equipped vehicle

THEN

this whole matter is a non-issue because EVEN IF the biodiesel were to COMPLETELY stratify in your fuel tank, IT DOESN'T MATTER

As with quite a number of other posters, I used commercially available B100 in summer and B20 - B50 in winter for a few years until my source stopped selling it about a year ago, and I never had any issues.

Splash blending is more of an issue with service centers, because if they fill their storage tank 20% with B100 and then top it up with D2, they could be selling some customers a blend that is quite a bit off-spec. (by the way, ethanol-blended gasolines have the same issue)

If you are blending your own B20 - B50 you could have the same issue, so agitate the tank if it's going to be cold.

b4black · Nov 16, 2009

UFO said:
But the spec is 500ppm, regardless of how it is manifest in the fuel.

Not correct. I'll say it again, it's a 500ppm free water & sediment spec. There is no specification for dissolved water. Dissolved water is the water in fuel that you cannot see. B100 saturated with dissolved water (~1500ppm) is still clear and on-spec.

UFO said:
It is virtually impossible to have free water in the same fuel that has no entrained water, so 499 ppm free water is out of spec.

"Entrained water" is emulsified free water. It makes the fuel hazy. Spin it in a centrifuge and it will be forced to the bottom. 499 ppm of free water, whether entrained or not is on-spec.

There is no total water specification for B100. Total water is run the Karl-Fisher Method. KF Water will measure dissolved and free (entrained or not) water.

Dissolved water will not hurt an engine, but it may become free water if the fuel cools and the saturation point drops.

b4black · Nov 16, 2009

Look here for the water and sediment spec.
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/BDSpec.pdf
The method is D2709. 0.05% = 500 ppm.

Then read about ASTM D2709. Read the scope of the method:
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D2709.htm

This test method covers the determination of the volume of free water and sediment in middle distillate fuels having viscosities at 40°C (104°F) in the range of 1.0 to 4.1 mm²/s (1.0 to 4.1 cSt) and densities in the range of 770 to 900 kg/m³.This test method covers the determination of the volume of free water and sediment in middle distillate fuels having viscosities at 40°C (104°F) in the range of 1.0 to 4.1 mm²/s (1.0 to 4.1 cSt) and densities in the range of 770 to 900 kg/m³.

The spec if for free water. Not dissolved water.

UFO · Nov 16, 2009

b4black said:
Not correct. I'll say it again, it's a 500ppm free water & sediment spec. There is no specification for dissolved water. Dissolved water is the water in fuel that you cannot see. B100 saturated with dissolved water (~1500ppm) is still clear and on-spec.

"Entrained water" is emulsified free water. It makes the fuel hazy. Spin it in a centrifuge and it will be forced to the bottom. 499 ppm of free water, whether entrained or not is on-spec.

There is no total water specification for B100. Total water is run the Karl-Fisher Method. KF Water will measure dissolved and free (entrained or not) water.

Dissolved water will not hurt an engine, but it may become free water if the fuel cools and the saturation point drops.

Here is what I found regarding ASTM D-2709:

Currently, D 6751 limits water and sediment as determined by ASTM D 2709, Test Method for Water and Sediment in Middle Distillate Fuels by Centrifuge, to 0.050 volume-percent maximum. The subcommittee is considering replacing this requirement with a 500 ppm limit on dissolved water as determined by the Karl Fischer method (D 6304, Test Method for Determination of Water in Petroleum Products, Lubricating Oils, and Additives by Coulometric Karl Fischer Titration) and a limit on particulate contamination using a method under development.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this specifies WATER by volume. Regardless of how it is captured in the fuel, you are limited to 500 ppm. How is that not a total water specification? How are you going to get ASTM spec fuel that drops water when mixed with diesel?

It is ridiculous that a scenerio where water comes out of biodiesel is postulated, with zero evidence, it is required to refute it's opposite.

Don't mix biodiesel with diesel in your tank.

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