Upgrades - Questions and Suggested Order

Hello all,

I've got an 02 Jetta Wagon, 5spd. 180k.

I've had it three months, very happy. A little bit too much smoke / rpm "catch" at cold startup, but everything else is tip-top. I've done the filters and fluids already.

Q1: - I am going to get nozzles (520's probably?) as well as Malone 1.5 tune(probably?) - I will have the nozzles installed professionally while the timing belt is being done. - Should I have the nozzles installed, the tune put on the ECU, THEN return to the shop to have them calibrate? Or have the nozzles installed, the engine calibrated by the repair shop, THEN have the Malone 1.5 applied to the ECU?

Q2: - I have a set of gauges (EGT, Boost) that will be installed before the performance upgrades. I've heard that Malone 1.5 uses dynamic EGR, however I was considering deleting and removing the cooler as this was also an easy time to install each gauge (on the block-off plate for the EGT) - Should I leave the EGR in place if I'm going to get the tune? Or, should I remove, plate off and install my probe in that block-off plate?

Thanks guys - I'm sure more questions will come to mind later. Thanks for your time in advance.

Bump

I know this stuff seems basic, and I've read the TDI101 and other threads, however the correct process for moving forward was never really mapped out in specific detail and order...

Thanks guys!

First things first, bring all maintenance up to where it should be.

Do you have VCDS or know anyone with it? I'd be interested to know the injection quantity. I suspect that the injection pump needs to be re-sealed. That should help with the smoke issue.

You can delete the EGR if you'd like. Malone can tune it out. The Dynamic EGR is an upgrade option. On both of our vehicles we have deleted it. I agree with putting the EGT probe in the blockoff plate. That's exactly where it should be.

What are your goals with this vehicle?

For the Nozzle/tune order, If I recall correctly, you can install the nozzles without requiring the tune immediately. The tune will just take advantage of the increased flow potential.

Thanks poormanq, there's some great info here.

I've done all the proper maintenance and have brought it up to good order. The timing belt will be done at the same time as these modifications (new nozzles, etc). The goal for this car is to ba a 500,000 mile car - it's at 175k now. It's a family car, really.

Some questions based on the info you just shared

Q1: - I've heard/read that a probe installed in the EGR block-off plate won't be long enough to reach into the exhaust stream? I've got a probe, it's a shorter one (less than 5" I believe)

Q2: - I do not have a VCDS, is it worth purchasing just to have on hand - I plan to have this car (and buy another) for a long time.

bawward said:

Thanks poormanq, there's some great info here.

I've done all the proper maintenance and have brought it up to good order. The timing belt will be done at the same time as these modifications (new nozzles, etc). The goal for this car is to ba a 500,000 mile car - it's at 175k now. It's a family car, really.

Some questions based on the info you just shared

Q1: - I've heard/read that a probe installed in the EGR block-off plate won't be long enough to reach into the exhaust stream? I've got a probe, it's a shorter one (less than 5" I believe)

Q2: - I do not have a VCDS, is it worth purchasing just to have on hand - I plan to have this car (and buy another) for a long time.

Click to expand...

Q1: I have seen people mentioning the need for a longer probe to use in that location. I'm not sure exactly what length is needed. On both of our PD engines the EGR blockoff is not too far off the main stream. A ~4-6" probe should get fairly accurate results in my case. Searching the forums seems to suggest that yours will give you nice results.

Q2: I bought the Hex+Can for $350 in anticipation of getting another VAG vehicle. We started with a MK5 jetta. Two years later I added a MK4 Jetta. VCDS has done wonders for tracking down little electrical gremlins, like the driver's door harness failure on the MK5... It's definitely an extremely useful troubleshooting tool. The big thing to consider is if you only need Hex or Can. I needed both due to the generations, and I'd like to get an Audi in the future.

One of the big selling points to me with VCDS is that if you ever want to, you can resell it for close to what you paid for it. As long as it works, it's fully supported by Ross-Tech and retains its value.

Why are YOU (not this is a question aimed at the OP) removing the EGR?

Is your intake clean? If not, then you really ought to do that before everything else. And, the smoke issue, again, get your car in perfect health before piling on mods; reason being is that you have a very clean baseline to work with, which, without such you don't readily know how well the mods do/did, and, mods might exacerbate any pre-existing condition (and you might then be doing a dance with the shop about what your problems are).

UhOh said:

Why are YOU (not this is a question aimed at the OP) removing the EGR?

Is your intake clean? If not, then you really ought to do that before everything else. And, the smoke issue, again, get your car in perfect health before piling on mods; reason being is that you have a very clean baseline to work with, which, without such you don't readily know how well the mods do/did, and, mods might exacerbate any pre-existing condition (and you might then be doing a dance with the shop about what your problems are).

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Good point - I've been wandering around the forum trying to read up on it - just a touch of chugging and smoke for 10-15 seconds when the evening got cold. It will be hammered out more as I get closer to doing the upgrades.

I've had the EGR off for cleaning, not the manifold yet - that's next. I've been told that the manifold is the best place for a boost probe, instead of pre-turbo on the black plastic pipe just behind the intercooler? Thoughts?

I was going to keep the intercooler to help with warm up times, and it's working just fine... but I figure if I'm doing some changes, might as well get the MPG as well as the HP anywhere I can - and putting the EGT probe on that block-off plate would be very simple.

bawward said:

I was going to keep the intercooler to help with warm up times, and it's working just fine... but I figure if I'm doing some changes, might as well get the MPG as well as the HP anywhere I can - and putting the EGT probe on that block-off plate would be very simple.

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I'm assuming you meant EGR, I would leave it on and get the dynamic EGR from Malone when you get the tune. The EGR will help your car reach operating temps quicker, helping mpg and hp since because an engine is most efficient and powerful at operating temps.

Welcome to the group.
Its a ALH engine check the intake and EGR it is most likely plugged up a bit. do a log group 11 to make shore the turbo is work to spec.
Turn off the EGR or remove it. I would check the IP timing and reset it. Check the IQ and set in the 3.5 Mark .
Put a stage 2 in it first, use the tuner I use .
For the EGT I use the one from IDPARTS.com but make up a new plate her it is.

CNGVW said:

Turn off the EGR or remove it.

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Are you going to inform the OP that removing the ERG [valve] results in a loss of the ASV, or do you want me to mention it?

UhOh said:

Are you going to inform the OP that removing the ERG [valve] results in a loss of the ASV, or do you want me to mention it?

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Do you lose that functionality on the ALH? If so, that's very concerning!

Both of our PDs have functioning asv with the egr removed and disabled.

I have been told that you could loose the ability of the Anti-Shutter-Valve if you physically remove it from the car and did the "race pipe" mod - however if I just use a piece of sheet metal for a block-off plate and re-routed the coolant line, I can retain the ASV, correct?

But then here's my question now:

Q1 - If I left the egr there, and blocked it off using a thin piece of sheet metal, removed the cooler and re-routed the coolant line, where would I tap the car for the EGT/Pyrometer probe? I would not be able to do a tap as shown in the two photos above, (as was my initial plan, because it sounded very simple)

Thanks guys.

If you leave the EGR valve on the car, you retain the ASV function.

Delete the EGR, otherwise the intake will plug up again. Contrary to some people's believe, the fuel has nothing to do with it.

I did nozzles first and the MPG suffered, then did the tune, but I never play with IQ either.

IQ = "Injection Quantity", correct?

I have yet to check the timing or IQ, a VAG-Com purchase is in my future I think...

Q1 - For the nozzles, did you complete the job yourself? I'm handy with a wrench, but am very intimidated by this job due to the many horror stories... and I don't have a garage to work in, just an apartment parking lot.

Q2 - Would you suggest buying new bodies as well as the new nozzles/tips?

bawward said:

I've had the EGR off for cleaning, not the manifold yet - that's next. I've been told that the manifold is the best place for a boost probe, instead of pre-turbo on the black plastic pipe just behind the intercooler? Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Since you've had the EGR off, you should know if the Intake needs cleaning. If it isn't clogged at the entrance it's doubtful that it's caked any worse further in.

I'm in the camp for deleting the EGR and cooler if you don't need it for emissions. Yea, you loose the ASV, but I don't even know what that means. If mine shutters, I can't tell. Put the Temp probe on the block-off plate. IDParts has a block-off plate with egt port. They use to sell the long probes, but I don't see any probes listed on their site right now.

As far as the nozzles go, get them first, then have the Tune done to reflect the new nozzles. You can put the nozzles on yourself, but I would recommend sending your injectors off to get the new nozzles tested and calibrated. (This means down time unless you use the "hot swap" option. They will clean all the injector pieces and replace anything that doesn't measure up. The injector "bodies" don't need replacing.

If you do the Tune first, you'll be doing it again after the nozzles. I agree, the mpg's will come more from the Tune than the nozzles. You'll have a new car after both.

Yes, IQ= Injection Quantity. That is adjusted by the "hammer mod".

Whoever is going to do your timing belt will have a VAGCOM and can check your IQ and Timing (and other things). So will a Malone Dealer if you are using one for your Tune. There are also links on the forum to TDI guru's and enthusiasts with VAGCOM's. I can't imagine there is a shortage in Chitown.

One last thing; have you replaced all your vacuum lines?

bawward said:

IQ = "Injection Quantity", correct?

I have yet to check the timing or IQ, a VAG-Com purchase is in my future I think...

Q1 - For the nozzles, did you complete the job yourself? I'm handy with a wrench, but am very intimidated by this job due to the many horror stories... and I don't have a garage to work in, just an apartment parking lot.

Q2 - Would you suggest buying new bodies as well as the new nozzles/tips?

Click to expand...

I changed the nozzles myself but I have a pop tester to check them. Some on here say they must be calibrated, some use pop testers, some send just throw in the nozzles with no issues. Its not hard to do them, if you carefully do one at a time on a clean bench with a vise, you can't really mess it up. I don't think you need new body's, just get new nozzles. When changing them, do a pair, start it, then do the other pair.

IQ should be checked and adjusted as needed with the VCDS at first. I am playing with mine on my black one and it makes a huge difference.

swetbak said:

Since you've had the EGR off, you should know if the Intake needs cleaning. If it isn't clogged at the entrance it's doubtful that it's caked any worse further in.

Excellent to know. Thank you! I had considered pulling the whole thing off... mine wasn't too bad considering what I've seen on here.

As far as the nozzles go, get them first, then have the Tune done to reflect the new nozzles. You can put the nozzles on yourself, but I would recommend sending your injectors off to get the new nozzles tested and calibrated. (This means down time unless you use the "hot swap" option. They will clean all the injector pieces and replace anything that doesn't measure up. The injector "bodies" don't need replacing.

I could avoid down time if I simply send in the nozzles as soon as I get them, before installing them in the car, correct?

Also, by having them calibrated/tested, are they simply verifying that the nozzles are the correct size/tolerance for fuel? What are they testing?

One last thing; have you replaced all your vacuum lines?

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I have not done the vacuum lines, I've seen this as recommended across the board. Sounds like the next weekend project!

Your post was EXTREMELY helpful, it cleared up many other questions I had in the back of my mind.

turbovan+tdi said:

I changed the nozzles myself but I have a pop tester to check them. Some on here say they must be calibrated, some use pop testers, some send just throw in the nozzles with no issues. Its not hard to do them, if you carefully do one at a time on a clean bench with a vise, you can't really mess it up. I don't think you need new body's, just get new nozzles. When changing them, do a pair, start it, then do the other pair.

IQ should be checked and adjusted as needed with the VCDS at first. I am playing with mine on my black one and it makes a huge difference.

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OK. It sounds like I'll have them ... verified/calibrated/pop tested or whatever directly after purchase, before installing. Then, after they are tested, I'll install.

The only reason I would need new bodies was if I buggered up the current ones in the vice or something, right?

So far as IQ, I've seen videos for adjusting timing (advance, retard) but not for IQ. I've seen that it's a numerical value? Something like... 3.0 or something? I can follow this up myself.

My question is - are all cars different so far as IQ? And when/how do you know when it needs to be adjusted? (Too much black in the exhaust I assume?)

bawward said:

OK. It sounds like I'll have them ... verified/calibrated/pop tested or whatever directly after purchase, before installing. Then, after they are tested, I'll install.

The only reason I would need new bodies was if I buggered up the current ones in the vice or something, right?

So far as IQ, I've seen videos for adjusting timing (advance, retard) but not for IQ. I've seen that it's a numerical value? Something like... 3.0 or something? I can follow this up myself.

My question is - are all cars different so far as IQ? And when/how do you know when it needs to be adjusted? (Too much black in the exhaust I assume?)

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Just to be sure you understand- The whole injector gets calibrated. Not just the nozzle. Generally, you send your injectors to whoever you are buying your new nozzles from and they return your injectors with the new nozzles installed. Hence the down time.

Generally speaking, testing the injectors involves measuring how well and at what pressure they inject. They also ensure that all four injectors flow near identically.

Here is a link that should answer your questions about IQ
http://www.dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/DBW-IQ-Procedure-1.pdf

swetbak said:

Just to be sure you understand- The whole injector gets calibrated. Not just the nozzle. Generally, you send your injectors to whoever you are buying your new nozzles from and they return your injectors with the new nozzles installed. Hence the down time.

Generally speaking, testing the injectors involves measuring how well and at what pressure they inject. They also ensure that all four injectors flow near identically.

Here is a link that should answer your questions about IQ
http://www.dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/DBW-IQ-Procedure-1.pdf

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Thanks for this post. This makes a lot more sense - I wasn't understanding the whole "down time" till now.

The link is perfect - saved it for when the time comes.

I looked at the Bosio 520's, and they want $250 for a set, plus $210 to "calibrate" - that sounds like a LOT! Any thoughts?

bawward said:

Thanks for this post. This makes a lot more sense - I wasn't understanding the whole "down time" till now.

The link is perfect - saved it for when the time comes.

I looked at the Bosio 520's, and they want $250 for a set, plus $210 to "calibrate" - that sounds like a LOT! Any thoughts?

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That's about right.
DLC 520's and a Malone 1.5 tune and you'll really love to drive your car!
Another freebie (almost) is to look at the "how-to" on cleaning your intercooler.

bawward, before dumping your EGR components I'd advise you to first find out whether you're subject to emissions checks. Canadians no longer have to be concerned about such things, which is why it's a "natural" thing for them to promote ripping it all out.

I'd advise asking for meaningful references supporting ANY recommendation. MANY folks promoted tweaking the EGR cycle via VCDS. Saw mention all over the place for this (even on Ross-Tech's site!) so I did it; I promptly discovered that it killed my fuel mileage. Hm... so, I dug into it more deeply and ran across a wonderful thread in which people actually tried to understand what the heck this was all about (rather than doing a knee-jerk in response to seeing the horrors of a clogged EGR and intake), and what I found out there was that the ECU would compensate for those changes and that short of an actual tune/remap you were only making things WORSE.

What MPGs are you getting?

I opted to get BOTH of my cars (recent acquisitions) to 50mpg BEFORE making any tweaks: my car was in the low to mid 40s to start with (winter had a small part to play in this, though I'm in the mild PNW climate). I've hit that target (50+ average over the last 10+ tanks) and am awaiting my tunes before installing the new injectors. My expectations are to be able to increase my fuel mileage, and to be able to unequivocally establish that it was the new nozzles and tunes that effected that.

UhOh, your posts are always so awesome! Lots of good stuff there.

I don't have to do emissions, so far as I can tell. And I don't want to call DMV to get the "official word" - however I'm pretty sure Illinois doesn't require my 02 Jetta to be checked. I may leave the EGR for now, as it's functioning fine, warms up really quick, and in Chicago - that's important!

I'm getting consistently 45-48mpg. I never end up driving over 55mph, and typically am driving between 30-45mph. So I'm hopeful that on an extended highway/road trip I might see over 50 mpg.

Ive done the following - Air tires, 4-wheel alignment, remove and rebuild the brakes, fuel filter, clean EGR (but not intake manifold yet), a can of Diesel Purge, Trans fluid change, Snow Screen removal, MAF clean and reinstall using the dielectric silicone, drain oil from intercooler, install used plastic under-car shield

I need to do - Check glow plugs, check IQ/timing, probably replace DMF, check compression, clean intercooler, skid plate, timing belt (!), vacuum lines

I also need to track down why it smokes and "chugs" a bit when started up from sitting overnight, or for more than 5 hours during the day)

The car is four months old to me, I'm trying to do an all-over tune-up.


Q1 - Anything else come to mind for an exhaustive "tune up"?

Q2 - If you get your tune first, then your injectors, won't you have to re-adjust the IQ/Timing/ECU?

OK, now that I have actual experience I feel that I can speak with a bit more authority to some of these issues you've raised.

Nozzles (I highly recommend having them professionally mounted, and all calibrated) of good quality FIRST, if you're not going big that is. I went with DLC520s with a Stage 1 setting of the injectors and just these made a significant difference in performance, a nice bump, no smoke (I didn't need to make any adjustments). So, this seems to work just fine. If you do anything other than a Stage 1 tune you're going to have to have larger nozzles at the very least (and then it depends what tune stage)*. If you're not going above anything other than the Stage 1 tune then you can just jump to that tune w/o other mods: Stage 1.5 seemed rather light to me, little different than just the nozzle upgrade, for/to me anyways; I am currently running Stage 2 tune (pretty much all that I wanted/needed), though at the risk of trashing the clutch (will look to manage).

* More info here: http://malonetuning.com/ve-tdi

If you've got smoke issues like you define then you should probably get a handle on that before doing any mods. It's possible that your injectors are to blame (leaky), but unless you're going to have work done on them (with new nozzles) it's not really the way to go about troubleshooting/fixing: my wife's car smokes more than mine at start-up; as I'm going to be doing the injectors/nozzles on her car I'm hoping that that might have a positive effect on this issue- might also just be turbo seals starting to get tired, OR, valve guide seals (less common I believe), OR, rings (no compression testing, but it runs really well and gets great fuel mileage).

UhOh, I appriciate your updated post. I've been following your thread and have read your more detailed response after installing the injectors/nozzles.

It sounds VERY cool. My issue now has changed slightly.

I had vibration under throttle over 1500RPM, so I swapped and rebuilt both inner CV joints. It helped, but I still have a shutter/vibration under power and some at a stand still (eliminating drivetrain, tires, etc) - I'm pretty sure its the DMF.

I'm considering two different clutches - the VR6 or the SB stage 2 (driver - not endurance). I will be doing an identical upgrade as you - 520's and Stage 2 tune - that's all. At this point, I'm leaning towards the SB stage 2 (driver) clutch kit.

Your thread has been VERY helpful and encouraging regarding the power upgrades. I would be interested in hearing your real-world hand-calced mileage.

Nozzles (I highly recommend having them professionally mounted, and all calibrated) of good quality FIRST, if you're not going big that is. I went with DLC520s with a Stage 1 setting of the injectors


Q1 - Where did you source your nozzles from and who did you have adjust/calibrated? (I assume you went with Bosio?)

Q2 - According to Kerma, Stage 1 nozzles are 90-130 hp - With the Stage 2 (Malone) tune, you'll be making 122hp/228ft. lb on the tune alone... won't the combined power increase of the nozzles and the tune take you over the "Stage-1" nozzle calibration of max 130hp?

Thanks again for all your help and time my friend, your input has been VERY helpful!

bawward said:

Nozzles (I highly recommend having them professionally mounted, and all calibrated) of good quality FIRST, if you're not going big that is. I went with DLC520s with a Stage 1 setting of the injectors


Q1 - Where did you source your nozzles from and who did you have adjust/calibrated? (I assume you went with Bosio?)

Q2 - According to Kerma, Stage 1 nozzles are 90-130 hp - With the Stage 2 (Malone) tune, you'll be making 122hp/228ft. lb on the tune alone... won't the combined power increase of the nozzles and the tune take you over the "Stage-1" nozzle calibration of max 130hp?

Thanks again for all your help and time my friend, your input has been VERY helpful!

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Regarding injector work, you should be fine if you go through Kerma. Yes, the DLC520s are Bosio.

The tune REQUIRES that it can get it from the physical hardware, hence the requirement for upgraded nozzles.

I have no idea what HP my car is at now. It's unlikely to be the top of the range as the injectors aren't set for max fueling: I was really only wanting a power bump while retaining fuel mileage. Torque, however, feels pretty much like it's toward the top of the range: I had a stock Saab 9000 and it was pushing 238ft-lb of torque (200hp), so I have a pretty good feel for that range. This is clutch-killing territory for stock ALH clutches (unless care is taken).

Getting a hand-calc'd fuel mileage is going to take a while. It took me about 10 tanks before I was confident of my baseline fuel mileage for stock. Current tank is going to be 1/2 stock and 1/2 with mods (includes some testing). With the Stage 2 tune, or anything higher, it's pretty easy to knock fuel mileage down (right foot just seems to get itchy). My UltraGauge is reading lower, but it sounds like the re-map/tune is likely just confusing it and it'll [UltraGauge] need to be recalibrated: I'm trying to find out how this is happening so I have more confidence (in order to commit the tune); logs have been sent off so that the performance can be fully analyzed (another reason why it's essential to have VCDS).

Again, decide what you really want to do and then talk to the vendors, as they have a lot more data/experience to draw from (I only have a few days with ONE experience here!).

For your vibration issue, I would look in to replacing the dogbone mount

I should have mentioned this in my previous post - I did replace the Transmission and Pendulum (dogbone) engine mounts - the third will happen during the timing belt replacement.

Thanks for the bit of explanation regarding calibration of the nozzles. Did you go through Kerma?

I think a muffler delete is worth its weight in gold. My green one just runs better and getting pretty good MPG for an auto and putting a 3" cat back on my black one changed its whole dynamic, if I hadn't driven it before and after, I never would believed it and I work on cars all day, lol.