Single mass flywheel interchangeablility question.

mk4mr · Feb 23, 2020

Hello everyone. I asked this question a while back, but it was imbedded down in one of my other posts, so I didn't really get any feedback. Here's my question...

I have an early 99' Jetta ALH with 350,000+ miles. There is significant chatter from the clutch area and it actually causes the engine to rock and shutter at idle. There are no drivability issues at all. Clutch pedal feels very good. Clutch release grabs very 'high' near the end/release of the clutch pedal(My new G60 in my gasser is just the opposite...grabbing very low with clutch pedal much nearer the floor). Sitting at idle, with the clutch pushed in, if I release the pedal to the point where it just starts to grab, all noise and vibration goes away.

I have no history on the car whatsoever, so I do not know what is in the car clutchwise. I'm guessing that there is still a DMF and maybe it's going bad, but I don't know. Getting to the question now...

I have a spare(good) SMF from an 01' 2.0 gas VW. **Does anyone know if this is the same bolt pattern, or if this is even a viable swap option?

I won't know which direction I'm going until I pull the trans, but if there is a sick DMF in it, I will want to swap it. If there is a DMF that is in good shape, I'll leave it and get a matching clutch disc and pressure plate etc... If the 2.0 flywheel will work, and if the one in the car is actually bad, I'd rather use it since it is just sitting. I have no plans for big performance mods, just dependable driving. I don't see any need to buy a flywheel if I already have a good one, ya know?

Thanks for any information you can share...suggestions too, of course.

KCTDI · Feb 23, 2020

The 2.0 gas flywheel you refer to will bolt up and looks correct but uses a smaller clutch disc. Prolly wouldn't hold the torque of a TDI.

jmodge · Feb 23, 2020

It seems that I’ve read on this forum that all four-cylinder Cranks have the same bolt pattern, the issue you may run into is no timing Mark. That can be transferred by stacking the flywheels on top of each other when you have them out. But this is not first-hand information because I’ve never had the opportunity to compare them. You may get the answer you want bye PMing indigo blue wagon at ID parts or Marty, also known as Jeteeah

jmodge · Feb 23, 2020

Looks like you got an answer

mk4mr · Feb 23, 2020

Thanks everyone.

If I looked things up correctly, I think the stock ALH has approximately 155lb/ft. of torque. Is that right?

I am seeing some stage 1 and stage 2 (2.0) clutch/pressure plates with a 250+ torque holding capability. If I go this route, it looks like I should be safe, right? I know it seems like I'm being fickle, but I already have this flywheel, and have the chance to do away with the dual mass issues. If it's a bad idea all around, I'll pass on it, but the only way to learn is to ask, right? The overall condition of the car has been questionable from the start, so I hate to spend too much when I'm still assessing it's condition and running stock anyway. I'll spend more money though if my thoughts are wrong. There's no sense in me being foolish over a few dollars.

Thanks again!

eddieleephd · Feb 23, 2020

I don't think it's the flywheel, but rather the clutch pad and pressure plate you use.
So if it's rated for your torque it should work.
However, it's your risk. Also check the weight of the flywheel.
Might consider a new DMF by luk.i mean the original went 350kMi

https://smile.amazon.com/LuK-17-050...1_1?keywords=038105264E&qid=1582507915&sr=8-1

https://www.idparts.com/luk-17-050-clutch-kit-p-740.html

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WildChild80 · Feb 23, 2020

Also replace the rear main seal and trans input shaft seal...the cheapest way it to pull the seal carrier out of that broken transmission from that beetle and just replace the seal assuming the carrier/throw out bearing carrier is in good shape.

It's also a good time to re seal the oil pan if it's leaking/if you can tell it's leaking and don't wait too long on a timing belt...cam and lifters possibly and an oil pump chain and tensioner.

The people that love and keep these cars understand that they aren't the cheapest form of transportation but for whatever weird reason have a deep love for these cars, myself included. It sounds scary when you add the cost up but it'll be worth it even if you have to swap engines or rebuild the one in it. One things I love is the odometer, and the looks and comments when I say 320k with a tune and 650 to 700 miles per 40ish worth of diesel among other reasons like paid for park and turn around anywhere and simple but nice controls. And personally I think the shape of the car is timeless...no it doesn't look like a new car but I don't think it looks like a 20 year old car either...I enjoy living in the unnoticed car that's not looked at twice...and pan handlers don't ask me for money at gas stations anymore.

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oilhammer · Feb 24, 2020

There are three different 2.0L engines in 2001. And not all of that type of engine uses the same clutch/flywheel, as they changed around suppliers. However, in any event, it will "bolt up" and "work" with the ALH, but it is not an ideal setup and is not what is supposed to be used. They are 215mm disc size (vs. 228 for the TDIs).

The '99 ALHs still used a Luk DMF/clutch, which while are known to be better able to handle the power, are also far more common to blow apart... of all the DMFs with holes blown through their sides, all but one were Luk. Sachs is the brand that replaced these in 2000.

One of the big reasons the one piece conversions even came into being was due to the random and catastrophic failure of the early DMFs, as well as their crazy high cost of replacement. And the folks that make DMFs for virtually all European and many other brands, Luk, Sachs, and Valeo, also make conversion kits... which tells me even the people that make them do not have a lot of faith in the long term durability of the design.

That said, they've also all made huge improvements, and the cost has come down to a much more reasonable range... competitive with the one piece conversions. And DMFs, by design, when they are working correctly, DO work great. They make for a very smooth engagement as well as a much smoother idle, which on a diesel is especially important.

Really up to you want you prefer. I have installed a LOT of the Valeo brand one piece conversions in ALH, BEW, and BRM cars, and they work fine in stock to nearly stock applications. They'll have a chance of slipping on anything beyond a mild tune, especially in the heavier A5 cars with the BRM engine that can easily be given a 50% increase in power with software alone. The only downside is a slight rattle/vibration at idle, but despite my telling people to expect this, nobody has ever complained. Of course, in most cases, I was replacing a failed DMF, so the car was shaking bad before. The clutches themselves almost never "wear out" on the TDIs.

I have also installed a few Sachs and Luk DMF replacement assemblies, and right now I seem to favor the feel of the Luk the most, and that kit can usually be sourced for less than $350 (which includes everything, including the flywheel). This is an improved version than what the early '98-99 ALHs came with.

mk4mr · Feb 24, 2020

eddieleephd said:
I don't think it's the flywheel, but rather the clutch pad and pressure plate you use.
So if it's rated for your torque it should work.
However, it's your risk. Also check the weight of the flywheel.
Might consider a new DMF by luk.i mean the original went 350kMi

https://smile.amazon.com/LuK-17-050...1_1?keywords=038105264E&qid=1582507915&sr=8-1

https://www.idparts.com/luk-17-050-clutch-kit-p-740.html

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Thanks for the links and the suggestions. I'll probably go with one of the affordable DMF kits. I'd heard of lots of people going with SMFs, but I wasn't sure which ones were 'accepted' as sensible swaps. I thought I might get lucky.

mk4mr · Feb 24, 2020

WildChild80 said:
Also replace the rear main seal and trans input shaft seal...the cheapest way it to pull the seal carrier out of that broken transmission from that beetle and just replace the seal assuming the carrier/throw out bearing carrier is in good shape.

It's also a good time to re seal the oil pan if it's leaking/if you can tell it's leaking and don't wait too long on a timing belt...cam and lifters possibly and an oil pump chain and tensioner.

The people that love and keep these cars understand that they aren't the cheapest form of transportation but for whatever weird reason have a deep love for these cars, myself included. It sounds scary when you add the cost up but it'll be worth it even if you have to swap engines or rebuild the one in it. One things I love is the odometer, and the looks and comments when I say 320k with a tune and 650 to 700 miles per 40ish worth of diesel among other reasons like paid for park and turn around anywhere and simple but nice controls. And personally I think the shape of the car is timeless...no it doesn't look like a new car but I don't think it looks like a 20 year old car either...I enjoy living in the unnoticed car that's not looked at twice...and pan handlers don't ask me for money at gas stations anymore.

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Hello friend. I already have the input shaft seal.

I was also planning on doing the rear main seal, I just haven't bought one yet. I also have a left side trans mount coming because I really feel like this one is shot. Once all of that is done, I'll start getting researching a timing/water pump kit. I hadn't thought about lifters...I'll have to study up some. Tell me more about the reasons and what happens after many miles.

I love the look of the cars. I prefer the Jetta front end much more than the Golf front end, but I'm probably the minority there. I'm ok with that though.

. I have yet to get rid of any of my Mk4s...so I understand the likeability factor they have for sure. I'll never have another car payment … unless some really strange things happen.

mk4mr · Feb 24, 2020

oilhammer said:
There are three different 2.0L engines in 2001. And not all of that type of engine uses the same clutch/flywheel, as they changed around suppliers. However, in any event, it will "bolt up" and "work" with the ALH, but it is not an ideal setup and is not what is supposed to be used. They are 215mm disc size (vs. 228 for the TDIs).

The '99 ALHs still used a Luk DMF/clutch, which while are known to be better able to handle the power, are also far more common to blow apart... of all the DMFs with holes blown through their sides, all but one were Luk. Sachs is the brand that replaced these in 2000.

One of the big reasons the one piece conversions even came into being was due to the random and catastrophic failure of the early DMFs, as well as their crazy high cost of replacement. And the folks that make DMFs for virtually all European and many other brands, Luk, Sachs, and Valeo, also make conversion kits... which tells me even the people that make them do not have a lot of faith in the long term durability of the design.

That said, they've also all made huge improvements, and the cost has come down to a much more reasonable range... competitive with the one piece conversions. And DMFs, by design, when they are working correctly, DO work great. They make for a very smooth engagement as well as a much smoother idle, which on a diesel is especially important.

Really up to you want you prefer. I have installed a LOT of the Valeo brand one piece conversions in ALH, BEW, and BRM cars, and they work fine in stock to nearly stock applications. They'll have a chance of slipping on anything beyond a mild tune, especially in the heavier A5 cars with the BRM engine that can easily be given a 50% increase in power with software alone. The only downside is a slight rattle/vibration at idle, but despite my telling people to expect this, nobody has ever complained. Of course, in most cases, I was replacing a failed DMF, so the car was shaking bad before. The clutches themselves almost never "wear out" on the TDIs.

I have also installed a few Sachs and Luk DMF replacement assemblies, and right now I seem to favor the feel of the Luk the most, and that kit can usually be sourced for less than $350 (which includes everything, including the flywheel). This is an improved version than what the early '98-99 ALHs came with.

Great info! I have an AZG flywheel, but I think I'll just keep it for something else later. I have no problem buying a complete kit whether DMF or SMF...I just thought I might have found a use for the one that just sits in the garage. It is a stock 22lb. flywheel btw. I really don't have a preference, I just prefer dependable operation. There's really nothing like getting the satisfaction of a dependable machine that you have put the time into. I'll look into the newer DMF kits and see what I can find. There may be more questions once I get to that point. I'll not be buying any of this for at least a month or so. I have a couple of other things on other cars that I just HAVE to get done first. I have too many cars that are 'mid-swing' right now...haha. I'm likely not the only one.

mk4mr · Feb 24, 2020

eddieleephd said:
I don't think it's the flywheel, but rather the clutch pad and pressure plate you use.
So if it's rated for your torque it should work.
However, it's your risk. Also check the weight of the flywheel.
Might consider a new DMF by luk.i mean the original went 350kMi

https://smile.amazon.com/LuK-17-050...1_1?keywords=038105264E&qid=1582507915&sr=8-1

https://www.idparts.com/luk-17-050-clutch-kit-p-740.html

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Oh yeah....I don't have any idea what kind of flywheel is in this thing at the moment. I didn't expect it to be the original, but I suppose it could be. All I know right now is that there is a concerning noise coming from the clutch/flywheel area. It makes the entire engine rock and shutter, but only at idle...going down the road...it is smooth. The clutch pedal is firm, and feels good to me, but I don't know if that secretly means anything.

WildChild80 · Feb 24, 2020

Well, the lifters will eventually wear out and it's catastrophic when this happens...come to think of it, we haven't had a lifter failure on the forum lately...it usually trashes the head. They usually destroy the lifter bore, it can be repaired but it's just not cost effective...

The service life...that really depends on what oil was used and if it was changed on time and how it was driven. I've got one at 320k that I'm suspicious of...I've got a good head that may get refreshed and swapped out with new stuff throughout. Also priced a rebuild kit with oversized pistons...you've seen pics of the pistons that came out of it. Hopefully half a mm will clean it up. An ounce of prevention is worth much more than a pound of cure with these TDIs.

I'd imagine the Bentley has a number like 200, 250 or 300k miles on the cam and lifters. Get a real good look at them and keep an eye on them or change them and have some peace of mind...it's easy to be nickle and dimed hard by these cars but there's something about diesel cars...the torque they make...

You should really consider a stage 1 tune, maybe a 1.5...itd really wake it up and then you'd be hooked on the torque it'll make

Almost forgot, the nozzles are said to have a 250 to 300k mile life as well... pretty sure I have some with 320 that do fine though...

I think I also like the challenge of keeping it going and to see how far I can go with it...500k miles would be cool or even more

I've had a few people ask if I engine swapped it because they don't know about diesel cars...

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WildChild80 · Feb 24, 2020

mk4mr said:
Thanks for the links and the suggestions. I'll probably go with one of the affordable DMF kits. I'd heard of lots of people going with SMFs, but I wasn't sure which ones were 'accepted' as sensible swaps. I thought I might get lucky.

I'd love to say south bend stage 2 daily but it's be a waste if you didn't add a good bit more power...they are silky smooth and bite very well but would be a waste if money on a stock car. But they have second to none customer service...they want you to love their products...not try to weasel out of backing their products...

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Curious Chris · Feb 25, 2020

I have the South Bend Stage 2 clutch and flywheel for sale. Of course I am in Duluth MN

WildChild80 · Feb 25, 2020

Curious Chris said:
I have the South Bend Stage 2 clutch and flywheel for sale. Of course I am in Duluth MN

How long along ago, I haven't seen it in the for sale thread

Is it an S2D or S2E?

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mk4mr · Mar 29, 2020

A little update for anyone who might remember...

I pulled the trans yesterday...and a muscle in my lower back...haha. The transmission is/was probably the dirtiest I have ever had my hands on. The clutch/flywheel was indeed a DMF. I don't know if it is the original. The rivets were cutting a groove into the pressure plate, so it was time. The flywheel rotates back and forth freely about an inch. I have no idea if that's normal or not. I have not tried to move the new assembly. I opted to go with a new DMF since I'm not planning on modding this car. The slave cylinder is very tired, so it will get replaced along with the input shaft seal and guide tube. Rear main seal will be here tomorrow. New passenger mound and dog bone are already here. Driver side trans mount was replaced about 2 weeks ago. I think I'm good to go. Then there's my back....

jmodge · Mar 29, 2020

It’s a good idea to replace the fork, pivot, and clip right now also, if you had not planned to already

jmodge · Mar 29, 2020

Stretching and ice also&#55357;&#56833;

Curious Chris · Mar 31, 2020

WildChild80 said:
How long along ago, I haven't seen it in the for sale thread

Is it an S2D or S2E?

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DXD 23 lb steel flywheel.

Single mass flywheel interchangeablility question.

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